Are elves just a flavour race now?

[Emili]

I think this would be competitive, particularly on a Pale Master build, except that DCs are usually more important than Spell Pen, and elves aren't getting anything at all there.

If you were so tight on feats that you were considering ditching Greater Spell Pen, you'd probably just go human, since that just gives you the extra feat, along with the +1 to 2 stats and a few other, minor benefits (like an extra skill point vs. everyone but drow). You'd need to be so tight on feats that you'd drop both Spell Pen and GSP, while still having enough excess AP to afford this enhancement line before elf starts looking attractive, and I can't imagine that ever being the case.

I guess some people would take -1 DC for +4 Spell Pen if it were an even trade, but at the cost of all those enhancements?

Eladrin, is the line still going to be prices at 1, 2, 3, 4, or are you going to cost it differently? 1, 1, 1, 1 seems too low, but maybe 1, 2, 1, 2? Or 1, 2, 2, 3?

Or are elves going to get some other bonus to being a wizard? This is a nice line, but I feel like it will just go to waste since wizards generally don't need (or really want) Dex, are hurt a lot by -2 Con, and gain nothing else whatsoever from being an elf. Well...maybe as a Rog 2 build, to make up for the lost Spell Pen, but drow is probably doing a lot more for the character (+1 to more relevant skills and DCs, innate Spell Resistance).

On a side note, I'd really like to see more enhancement lines get their costs reevaluated in the same way (though not necessarily the same progression) as the skill lines did.

I agree that SR is not so significant - you may see my edit above in reference to the two most common spells in epics - which do not depend on SR.

It would be nicer if it went down the line of DC but if spell pen was required in more areas (increased in mob like drow) it would mean more arcane schools available on the elf.

The devs miss the fact that most players build their characters to excell in end game content... being sufficient or great at level four, eight, twelve or even sixteen means nothing ... end game builds are where most people's mind work.

I like it. I would recommend that you make it

Lvl 1: 20 sp/1 Spell Pen
Lvl2: 20 sp/1 spell DC
Lvl3: 20sp/1 spell pen
Lvl4: 20sp/1 spell DC

So at level 4 it would give Elves 80 sp, 2 sp pen, 2 spell DC's.

Tough? You bet. But if you want to give Elves a real advantage that competes with Warforged self healing, let their spells land a bit harder.

Regs,

muffinspells

That would place them as a competitive wizard race actually ... Falls into line with Drow and Human and excells them a little further as they would be able to attain more school of magic for a little beyond perk. If I were designing the race would look more akin Tolkien - where all magic was writen in Elven - and Gygax's DnD.

Also... why is it other races - racial enhancements - are not poising synergy by class, i.e. wf PA, halfling gile, etc... Dwarven Faith covers Cleric and pally albeit left out FvS but why is it Arcanum requires Wizard levels and not just ... levels of arcane.

[sephiroth1084]

I like it. I would recommend that you make it

Lvl 1: 20 sp/1 Spell Pen
Lvl2: 20 sp/1 spell DC
Lvl3: 20sp/1 spell pen
Lvl4: 20sp/1 spell DC

So at level 4 it would give Elves 80 sp, 2 sp pen, 2 spell DC's.

Tough? You bet. But if you want to give Elves a real advantage that competes with Warforged self healing, let their spells land a bit harder.

Regs,

muffinspells

Excessive.

[Emili]

Excessive.

Not quite sure it is... considering what the balances are in the other races. It's one DC better than a drow or human in such respecs... There should be something about elves which make people wish to think of them as Favored class: Wizard... as stands the race screams anything BUT arcane. All other races aside from h-orc make a better arcane than an elf. SP does not amount to much in a world where SP is cheap... The attraction for wizard between Drow/Human/WF is the trade off of DC/Survivability neither of which Elf suffice - fact is a halfling or dwarf have better edge on an elf come the class wizard.

80 SP and +4 Spell pen while a tibbit is not what arcane really care about much... by-passing SR means nothing if the DC does not land the spell. The most important spells in game have no SR. It's not going to make people consider elf as a decent if even moderate average wizard - it's still a below average race for an arcane... a +1 dc turns heads and +2 dc places them in running considering their other faults.

[sephiroth1084]

Not quite sure it is... considering what the balances are in the other races. There should be something about elves which make people wish to think of them as Favored class: Wizard... as stands the race adjust better to anything BUT wizard.

Well, let's compare:

Drow are the current kings of wizard (and sorcerer and bard) DCs, with the highest starting Int, and have a pretty decent defensive ability in their (newly) innate SR, which makes up for the rather poor saves on a wizard, particularly when leveling. Drow are kind of an odd case as you don't spend any AP on racial abilities. This, plus the higher starting Int makes them very attractive, despite their Con penalty and less ideal stat distribution. This Elf line proposal that includes the +2 to DCs ends up with +1 DC and +2 Spell Pen over a drow. Maybe they're balanced in the fact that the elf is spending a lot of AP to get this? Elves go from the bottom of the racial choices for casters to a semi-tie at the top between "free" DCs, expensive DCs and spell pen and WF self-healing and immunities? Maybe include human in their for their close DC, better stats and extra feat...

Actually, typing that out...it seems reasonable. I still think the cost is kind of high, but we'd end up with:
-Elf: highest DCs, but lots of tied up AP, and weak stats
-Drow: second highest DCs, and SR both for free, but poor stats aside from Int
-Human: tied for second highest DCs/top of 3rd place, extra feat, same skill points as drow, some significant AP investment (less than elf probably)
-WF: down a bracket on DCs, but hardier than the other races, with a lot of relevant immunities
-------------
Half-elf, dwarf, halfling: no really relevant abilities or stats
------------
Half-orc: lowest DCs with no redeeming features

That actually looks good. Eladrin, have you considered this? Eyeballing it, the AP still looks a bit pricey, but I'm not sure. Mostly,I bring up the cost in the face of the expense of the wizard PrEs. Seems like a good idea to add a 4th race to the list of real choices competing for top spot for wizards. I think it would make for some difficult choices, which the Spell Pen-only line doesn't really do that.

[Ganak]

Pretty good enhancement, makes for a nice flavor elven wizard

I love my elven ranged ranger

[Seliana]

Elven Wizards will have an advantage at penetrating high spell resistance in Update 9. We're upgrading Elven Arcanum a little bit

So would this change going to apply to all Elven races like Half-Elf and Drow? If not, then is this a sign that other races are getting redone enhancements in update 9? I'd like to see some improvements done for Drow and Humans as they are pretty far behind HalfOrcs, HalfElves and Warforged for enhancements and racial abilities.

[Kosus]

They bring neat Arcane Archer combos to the table.
Pure AA/Spellsinger bards, while maybe not the most OP combo, are fun.
Hunter of the Dead/AA Paladins, haven't made one but it's doable.
Other than that sort of thing though, it seems to be pretty much just flavor.

[karnokvolrath]

I completely agree with the idea of the enhancement line boosting DC's over Spell Pen.

Expecially with most worth while casters already having a wizard past life or two, you could even back roll it a bit, granting spell pen on the 1st two and d'cs the latter two.

Or perhaps two seperate lines that you could only choose one or the other, one focused on spellpen and extra mana, the other for dcs and maybe a small amount of hps or something?

I dont know, even with the boost your talking about i still personally wouldnt be thinking "OMG my new elven arcane is gonna own."

I would love if elf got somewhere near or even above the rank of the WF and Drow, because elves need something, ANYTHING, even if it is just a niche. At this point just about every class and build idea can be done better if its not an elf.

[Emili]

So would this change going to apply to all Elven races like Half-Elf and Drow? If not, then is this a sign that other races are getting redone enhancements in update 9? I'd like to see some improvements done for Drow and Humans as they are pretty far behind HalfOrcs, HalfElves and Warforged for enhancements and racial abilities.

I doubt so as Arcanum as stands was an elven only enhancement line... rarely taken as really who builds an elven wizard these days - are a thing of the past (level cap 10 when mana was dear) - I still have one from back then and is still on list to eventually TR into a good race. Elves were displaced as wizard when drow were added and never regained anything in that realm while other races enhancements added and supported such role.

It would be nice to add elf as a competitive option towards some classes - wizard being one after all it is the elves "favored class." While "favored class" in DnD does not emphasis a gift in such realms - here in DDO it tends to... except with the inconsistancy that which is "elf" - three of the other races definately are better for wizard builds and two more others on par if not better. The only race elf would be considered better as a wizard currently is a H-orc.

There is no denying...

• Dwarf make a pretty good "favored fighter"
• WF make a pretty good "favored fighter"
• Halfling make a pretty good "favored rogue"
• Drow make a pretty good "favored Wizard"
• H-orc make a pretty good "favored Babarian"
• H-elves and Humans fall kind of within the scope of "favored Any"
• Elves make a pretty good "NOT favored wizard"

An interesting thing here is that every other races "Favored" also carry scope across class... i.e. what makes Dwarf a good fighter also is a perk to make one a Barbarian, what make halfling a good rogue also is good for a halfling fighter. Among the casters it's also true come drow yet for diff reasons a drow make a good sorc...

[Faent]

So, concerning paladins, elves are a flavor race. Regards Tore

So, if your math is correct, you proved the claim you cited. The difference is marginal. Thanks for the good work.

[QuantumFX]

Elven Wizards will have an advantage at penetrating high spell resistance in Update 9. We're upgrading Elven Arcanum a little bit:

<snip>

Any plans on balancing the racial weapon enhancements against more recently added damage enhancements?

Examples:
Orcish Melee Damage I vs. Aerenal Weapon Damage I - Seriously, the same cost for half the damage and nowhere near the same variety of weapons?

Orcish/Warforged Weapon Aptitude vs. Absolutely nothing like that for anyone else... - Is coding a chance to doublestrike on a racial weapon that hard?

Orcish/Warforged Power Attack vs. Once again, nothing like that in DDO - At least give an option for Combat Expertise.

[LeLoric]

Extra spell pen is a somewhat decent change here in addition to the sp. A normal wizard may now sepnd 12 ap to get 3 spell pen whereas an elf could put 10 ap into 4 spell pen and 80 spell points.

Elves could also use the extra spell pen to not take the feats freeing up more room for extra spell focus giving better dc's in some schools.

I'm not sure I agree with added dc's to this if anything it should only be for the 4th tier giving a +1.

This line is decent for an elven pale master as spell pen is pretty important to them being as their best single target nuke spell is necrotic ray which is subject to sr. They could stack both the spell pen line and this or free up ap with just this and gain some sp also. Pale master also helps cover for the -2 to con with lich form granting a +4.

I think this puts elves at least in the discussion for a pale master end game build although for archmage it's still pretty hard to not go wf.

Looking at dc's for an elven pale master at end game.

18 base int
5 level up
2 capstone
3 tome
3 enhancement
1 litany
7 item
3 exc
2 lich
2 yugo

46 (48 with ship)

18 (19) mod

dc's

10 base
9 spell lev
2 spell focus
2 spell focus item
18 (19)mod
1 arcane initiate

42 (43) end game dc (necro is one higher, conj 1 higher with diabolist robe)

Human/half-elf can get higher only with a +4 tome

Drow will be one higher.

Wf will be the same.

All of these are more than the adequate mark for epic content.

A triple tr'd elf wizard could take no spell pen feats, no spell pen enhancements and just the arcanum line and have a 33 spell pen (34 with epic staff of arcane power). Having those other feats opens up more spell focus schools.

[LeLoric]

Actually, typing that out...it seems reasonable. I still think the cost is kind of high, but we'd end up with:
-Elf: highest DCs, but lots of tied up AP, and weak stats
-Drow: second highest DCs, and SR both for free, but poor stats aside from Int
-Human: tied for second highest DCs/top of 3rd place, extra feat, same skill points as drow, some significant AP investment (less than elf probably)
-WF: down a bracket on DCs, but hardier than the other races, with a lot of relevant immunities

It only ties up a lot of ap if the other builds are not spending action points on spell pen. If you went the +2 dc's +2 spell pen option you'd be looking at spending 10 ap versus another race spending 6 for just 2 spell pen and for that extra 4 you get +2 dc's and 80 spell points? That seems a bit much to me.

[sephiroth1084]

It only ties up a lot of ap if the other builds are not spending action points on spell pen. If you went the +2 dc's +2 spell pen option you'd be looking at spending 10 ap versus another race spending 6 for just 2 spell pen and for that extra 4 you get +2 dc's and 80 spell points? That seems a bit much to me.

I don't think I'd go elf otherwise. It's a lower DC than drow, maybe lower than human (certainly doesn't adjust to changing gear as well), and is 1 feat down from human. You could go elf and drop a Spell Pen feat, but then you could have gone human and taken whatever extra feat you wanted anyway, with more HP and potentially better DCs (and humans have some worthwhile second-string AP lines, which elves do not).

If you aren't taking the Spell Pen AP lines on the elf, then the only benefit to this is a discount of 6 AP and an extra 60 SP? Do you think that is enough to give up a higher DC or other benefits? I don't. I can't afford everything I want to get on my wizards, but I'm not so tight that simply saving AP is a reason to go with one race over another.

If it were just +1 DC that they received, then they'd be in contention, I guess, though human is still getting the extra feat and more HP and potentially tying them for DCs. Drow would be tying them for DCs. Then it would be a case of whether you prefer SR to the SP discount and better stat distribution.

[Emili]

Extra spell pen is a somewhat decent change here in addition to the sp. A normal wizard may now sepnd 12 ap to get 3 spell pen whereas an elf could put 10 ap into 4 spell pen and 80 spell points.

Elves could also use the extra spell pen to not take the feats freeing up more room for extra spell focus giving better dc's in some schools.
I'm not sure I agree with added dc's to this if anything it should only be for the 4th tier giving a +1.

This line is decent for an elven pale master as spell pen is pretty important to them being as their best single target nuke spell is necrotic ray which is subject to sr. They could stack both the spell pen line and this or free up ap with just this and gain some sp also. Pale master also helps cover for the -2 to con with lich form granting a +4.

I think this puts elves at least in the discussion for a pale master end game build although for archmage it's still pretty hard to not go wf.

Looking at dc's for an elven pale master at end game.

18 base int
5 level up
2 capstone
3 tome
3 enhancement
1 litany
7 item
3 exc
2 lich
2 yugo

46 (48 with ship)

18 (19) mod

dc's

10 base
9 spell lev
2 spell focus
2 spell focus item
18 (19)mod
1 arcane initiate

42 (43) end game dc (necro is one higher, conj 1 higher with diabolist robe)

Human/half-elf can get higher only with a +4 tome

Drow will be one higher.

Wf will be the same.

All of these are more than the adequate mark for epic content.

A triple tr'd elf wizard could take no spell pen feats, no spell pen enhancements and just the arcanum line and have a 33 spell pen (34 with epic staff of arcane power). Having those other feats opens up more spell focus schools.

That was my first thought about it ... allowing elf to grab enchantment or conjuration school on a pale master (increasing DC of their holds/webs) Since pale master requires necromancy schools and not the other two (thus the hold DC and Web DC is lower when not enchantment/conjuration school caster)... question though I'd put would it tempt you to consider Lelodar change to an elf over such lines?

[LeLoric]

That was my first thought about it ... allowing elf to grab enchantment or conjuration school on a pale master (increasing DC of their holds/webs) Since pale master requires necromancy schools and not the other two (thus the hold DC and Web DC is lower when not enchantment/conjuration school caster)... question though I'd put would it tempt you to consider Lelodar change to an elf over such lines?

Not for me as I use the extra feat from human to get working umd on my wizard but that's hardly a requirement for a pale master. I use it to help heal others not anything that directly benefits me. With my current setup I would have the same dc's with an elf though unless I got a +4 tome. If I hadn't decided to go the umd route I would probably consider elf. At least it puts elf back in the discussion.

[LeLoric]

I don't think I'd go elf otherwise. It's a lower DC than drow, maybe lower than human (certainly doesn't adjust to changing gear as well), and is 1 feat down from human. You could go elf and drop a Spell Pen feat, but then you could have gone human and taken whatever extra feat you wanted anyway, with more HP and potentially better DCs (and humans have some worthwhile second-string AP lines, which elves do not).

If you aren't taking the Spell Pen AP lines on the elf, then the only benefit to this is a discount of 6 AP and an extra 60 SP? Do you think that is enough to give up a higher DC or other benefits? I don't. I can't afford everything I want to get on my wizards, but I'm not so tight that simply saving AP is a reason to go with one race over another.

If it were just +1 DC that they received, then they'd be in contention, I guess, though human is still getting the extra feat and more HP and potentially tying them for DCs. Drow would be tying them for DCs. Then it would be a case of whether you prefer SR to the SP discount and better stat distribution.

Drow will actually fall behind elf in hit points also unless they are double tr'd and even then they would have no other build points to put elsewhere whereas a double tr'd elf would have 4 more.

For a pale master human enhancements really dont offer anything other than the 2 stat boosting ones. Healing amp is worthless, versatility doesn't really offer much. Skill points are pretty moot too as wizards tend to have more than they could ever need. So a human is looking at an extra feat, 1 more max possible int and a few more hitpoints. Now granted I feel that is enough to keep human at the top but I think this does put elf in the conversation which is a good thing. Giving elf +1 dc's would be enough to really put them on even footing and +2 would be overkill and leave no reason to be anything other than elf on a pale master.

An extra dc is nice and all, I think everyone would strive to get theirs as high as possible. However a fully geared elf would be over 40 on all dc's and plenty capable of handling everything in game at this time. In fact the difference would be hardly noticeable on a normal questing basis. Hp are also less of an issue on a pm as they generally have plenty of hit points if geared and built properly.

[Torebro]

Human Versatility is a + to skills (UMD) or a + to saves, not that great but still nice to have.

When the Elf Arcanum Enhancements cost 1 AP each, this would bring elves close enough to humans (at least on a non TR, with SP of Past Life Wizard, humans will be ahead again).
For the cost of 4 AP an Elf would get 2 Feats (dropping both SP feats) and 80 Mana vs the +2(+3) Con +1 Int (for 2/6 APs) and 1 Feat for Human.
If it still costs 1/2/3/4, it saves you one feat and a few action points (dropping the SP III Enhancement).

So either the costs should be 1/1/1/1 or tier 4 should give +1 to DC (bringing Elves on par with Drow for 10 APs).

Or add more Enemies with a high SR where a "normal Caster" (+3 Enhancement, +4 Feats, +x Item) still has a 1/4 or so chance to fail

Regards Tore

[Torebro]

So, if your math is correct, you proved the claim you cited. The difference is marginal. Thanks for the good work.

I hope my math is correct, but add more damage for human through human versatility(Costs AP), add +1 Skill Point for human (very nice for a Paladin, since they in general don't have the points to boost int), add +2Con, add +Human improved Recovery (Costs AP), add human adaptability (costs AP), add +1 feat (Khopesh), add human toughness III/IV (admittedly not that great for a Paladin).

The problem with elves right now is, that -2 to Con is bad, where +2 to Dex isn't that big (most builds aim for Dex 15 +2 Tome = GTWF) and all enhancements, except the +x for attack/damage for scimitars is mostly useless for melee classes and useless for all other classes (except wizard with the U9 arcanum).

Regards Tore

[Asketes]

Still one fact remains is two of the most used spells on end-game- Epics (Mass Hold and Web) have no SR.

well in update 9, epic mobs and evil outsiders will be immune to spells

hehe