Are elves just a flavour race now?

[Emili]

Yeah, depends on which epic. Hence why I included the Rocksplitter/Earthgrab option as well.

I'll probably make sure to have both categories available for the variety of epic trash.

Even so... the Drow, Tr'd Horc, Helf or human pally easily offers more in option than elf and more damage output. The Horc being better with scimi or falchion, the helf and human better feating on a feat starved class and easily adjust for twf ... the typical twf khopesh using pally is human and is more DPS than an elf with scimi aps. All can grab a pair of Rocksplitter/Earthgrab likewise and the horc, helf and human will usually be stronger with them there also.

The more I look at TR'ing many of my elven melee the more I'm inclined to long to be some other race for equal and better enhancements. My bard and rogue are both elves and inline for my next TR's and with both Helf, human, even drow or another race offer better tweaking.

[Vissarion]

Sorry to disappoint you here, but let's have a look at some math. I am assuming Improved Crit:Slash, blank greensteel weapon, bloodstone and a damage modifier of +30 (str + enhancements + items (like claw set) + feats (like Weapon Spec) etc.. https://forums-old.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299620 had +50 and more, so 30 is rather low.

\begin{math}
Elf: 1*0 (no hit) + 13*(4.5 (avg damage GS Scimitar) + 30 + 2 (elf Enhancement)) + 6 * 2 * (4.5 + 30 + 2 + 6 (bloodstone)) = 984.5 damage on 20 hits vs normal trash mob 0% fort.

Human: 1 * 0 + 15 * (5.5 (GS Khopesh) + 30) + 4 * 3 * (5.5 + 30 + 6) = 1030,5
\end{math}

So a human will do 46 damage more in 20 attacks against an elf who invested 6 Action Points into damage. With a +40 damage modifier the difference is 1234.5 (Elf w/Scimitar) to 1300.5.

Also a human paladin would look like 15 Str, 15 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Cha (and putting +1 human adaptability in str (2 Action points)) is getting 20 more hp, 2 skill points instead of one, human improved recovery, human versatility and more. The drow also has +1 Skill point and Spell Resistance.

So, concerning paladins, elves are a flavor race.

Regards Tore

You and I apparently have different definitions of "flavor race".

Is Elf optimal for Paladin? No. I admitted from the outset that Elf was probably not optimal for any class combination, as they are simply not set up to be a min-maxing race.

Does the conclusion that they are only a "flavor" race logically follow from that assessment? Given that "flavor" is usually code for "gimped beyond redemption" depending on who you're talking to, this is mainly a philosophical distinction. For those players interested in mix-maxing, Elf is indeed a "flavor" race. For others, the different damage output you cite is not substantial enough to rule out the option (and the difference you cite is around 4.5%; if 4.5% away from optimal constitutes a hopeless "flavor" build, then I think a lot of us are screwed at the outset. :P).

That, and I'm not sure exactly where our quantitative analyses differ, but I've found that the gap between Elven/Scimmies and Human/Khopesh is around 2.3%.

This is based on this DPS calc: http://www.heartofiowa.net/~jeff_git...alculator.html (I will note this is no longer perfect for more complex DPS calcs given recent changes; for more sophisticated inter-build comparisons, I just use the most recent Aaxeyu/Consumer/A-O Spreadsheet).

Common assumptions include: 36 STR, Bloodstone, Epic Claw, Lit IIs, Tharne's, Bard Song, Power Attack, and either the inclusion or exclusion of Elven scimitar enhancements.

If you increase things like STR further, and really deck out the character with absurd gear, the Khopesh's multiplier advantage will widen the gap a little more (to around 2.5%), but in general the difference seems to be just over 2%.

Does that 2% difference consign the character to "flavor" build oblivion? I like to think not. With appropriate endgame gear, the character will still more than pull its own, and the practical in-game differences between identical Elven and Human pally builds will be, as in my previous language, marginal.

Edit: Same basic point in response to Emili's post. For some, the difference that emerges between races for equally optimized characters may indeed constitute a good reason to swap races, or simply not opt for a given race in the first place. The races you mention will indeed be slightly better, all else being equal. But in my mind, the difference is more a niggling one than a chasm that I feel the need to bridge.

Edit 2: Incidentally, Torebro, the DPS calc you referenced shows the gap as narrower than my calculations. The 2.1 spreadsheet takes into account a whole range of Paladin-relevant variables including smites and Divine Sacrifices, and the Human Khopesh variant sits at 501 DPS while the Elven scimmy (plus enhancements) sits at 497. That means the Elf version will be producing 99.2 percent of the DPS of the identical Human version.

Edit 3: Oops, forgot to adjust the race selection in the calc from Half Orc (used as the common template for all class breakdowns) to Human/Elven. Adjusting properly here (reduced STR score and no PA enhancements), the difference becomes 488 DPS for Human/Khopesh versus 485 Elven/Scimitar. Doesn't really change my previous assessment, though.

[Thrudh]

I have an elf AA...

I loved the invisibility and displacement dragonmarks when leveling up...

But now I have the displacement clickables from the Shroud, and I will be TRing into a half-elf AA...

Elves need some love.

[Torebro]

To me a "flavor" race is a race that has some setbacks and nothing in special to offer. A flavor race doesn't mean gimp to me, neither does it mean not-cookie cutter.

But still elves are rather a flavor race concerning most classes, humans and helfes offer more, except that elves look better.

Regards Tore

PS. I did use the calculator I linked myself and the damage difference was 7-8 points, not that much, still considering that human has other benefits (enhancements), I still consider elves a flavor race.

[hityawithastick]

Elf. Cleric. Arcane Archer.

Problem solved*.




*Why, yes, you COULD use half-elf for this, but an elf would be prettier.

[Wurmheart]

elves are still a solid choice for favoured souls
bonus atk/dmg to scimi's and invis dragonmark are quite worth it.

other then that they don't seem to be as ideal choices for other classes i'm afraid ;/
ps, clerics would do well with invis dragonmark but the radiant aura/bursts break invis...

[k1ngp1n]

Elf. Cleric. Arcane Archer.

These 4 words in proximity pain me. YEARGH!

[NaturalHazard]

Personally I dont think elves are pretty I rank them up there with some of the ugliest races in the game, I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

[NaturalHazard]

These 4 words in proximity pain me. YEARGH!

lol for a lot of people just AA is enough to cause them pain all on its own.

[Rathic]

Sorry to disappoint you here, but let's have a look at some math. I am assuming Improved Crit:Slash, blank greensteel weapon, bloodstone and a damage modifier of +30 (str + enhancements + items (like claw set) + feats (like Weapon Spec) etc.. https://forums-old.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299620 had +50 and more, so 30 is rather low.

\begin{math}
Elf: 1*0 (no hit) + 13*(4.5 (avg damage GS Scimitar) + 30 + 2 (elf Enhancement)) + 6 * 2 * (4.5 + 30 + 2 + 6 (bloodstone)) = 984.5 damage on 20 hits vs normal trash mob 0% fort.

Human: 1 * 0 + 15 * (5.5 (GS Khopesh) + 30) + 4 * 3 * (5.5 + 30 + 6) = 1030,5
\end{math}

So a human will do 46 damage more in 20 attacks against an elf who invested 6 Action Points into damage. With a +40 damage modifier the difference is 1234.5 (Elf w/Scimitar) to 1300.5.

Also a human paladin would look like 15 Str, 15 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Cha (and putting +1 human adaptability in str (2 Action points)) is getting 20 more hp, 2 skill points instead of one, human improved recovery, human versatility and more. The drow also has +1 Skill point and Spell Resistance.

So, concerning paladins, elves are a flavor race.

Regards Tore

not to nitpick but you are leaving out smites and sacrifice which favor weapons with a larger crit range

[Kza]

I have a 20 elf, AA. I can say that although it isn't THE most powerful toon I have, it is fun, viable, and pretty deadly in the right situations. The elven line for damage enhancements helps. With the right gear, you can easily hit Strength in the 40s, Dex in the 30s, and Con in the mid 20s range.

I sit on right around 500 HP most of the time and with a Lit2 Bow, Slaying arrows, and decent GTWF sets, you can contribute, have fun and be about the most DPS of any AA out there. Keep in mind that while you get many benefits from Helf that you don't get on elf, Helf doesn't get the elven enhancements for attacks with bows, long swords, rapiers, scimitars, ect...

Again, elf will never be a "min/max" dream, but some of the builds out there can utilize some of the bonuses elves get and be quite viable at end game. The main drawback is epic content without the right gear. 40 strength isn't all that impressive, even with full BAB. But if you are up against your FEs, and so forth, you will still rack up the kills and nobody will complain.

I didnt mean elves were useless. But even as AA i see maybe human and especially half elf as a tad better. Therefore as i see it elves are flavor as AA. Not ****, they are easy to accept in any quest any diff. But if i played one... deep inside me i would want to TR as helf just cause i know its slightly better.

As long as it is obvious something not as good as the best option its flavor for me.

So elves really need something as i see it.

[elujin]

i am not a 100 % sure but scimitars are better weapons for smiting

[Eladrin]

Elven Wizards will have an advantage at penetrating high spell resistance in Update 9. We're upgrading Elven Arcanum a little bit:

Elven Arcanum I
Benefit: Grants elven wizards a 20 point increase to spell points and +1 Spell Penetration. This enhancement requires at least one level of wizard.

Elven Arcanum II
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 40, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +2. This enhancement requires at least two levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 60, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +3. This enhancement requires at least four levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum IV
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 80, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +4. This enhancement requires at least eight levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III actually always required four levels of wizard (the current description claimed it was two), and we're bumping up the requirements of IV.

[CaptGrim]

Elven Wizards will have an advantage at penetrating high spell resistance in Update 9. We're upgrading Elven Arcanum a little bit:

Elven Arcanum I
Benefit: Grants elven wizards a 20 point increase to spell points and +1 Spell Penetration. This enhancement requires at least one level of wizard.

Elven Arcanum II
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 40, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +2. This enhancement requires at least two levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 60, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +3. This enhancement requires at least four levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum IV
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 80, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +4. This enhancement requires at least eight levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III actually always required four levels of wizard (the current description claimed it was two), and we're bumping up the requirements of IV.

1,2,3,4ap?

not a bad improvment at all. It would be nice to have it apply to all casting classes, but may require a name change.

The multi-class options would be nice to have for elves. giving a lvl 22 spell pen on a 2 splash clr/FvS/Sorc other than just wizard would be cool.

[Fetchi]

Elven Wizards will have an advantage at penetrating high spell resistance in Update 9. We're upgrading Elven Arcanum a little bit:

Elven Arcanum I
Benefit: Grants elven wizards a 20 point increase to spell points and +1 Spell Penetration. This enhancement requires at least one level of wizard.

Elven Arcanum II
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 40, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +2. This enhancement requires at least two levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 60, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +3. This enhancement requires at least four levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum IV
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 80, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +4. This enhancement requires at least eight levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III actually always required four levels of wizard (the current description claimed it was two), and we're bumping up the requirements of IV.

This is a great change and one that makes sense for the wizard class, but what about improving the race overall? They still make a poor choice for pretty much everthing due to their -2 CON score and +2 to DEX (which we all know DEX means absolutely nothing in this game).

Since this game is completely about HPs and STR (i.e. DPS), I hope you are planning something better.

[Emili]

Elven Wizards will have an advantage at penetrating high spell resistance in Update 9. We're upgrading Elven Arcanum a little bit:

Elven Arcanum I
Benefit: Grants elven wizards a 20 point increase to spell points and +1 Spell Penetration. This enhancement requires at least one level of wizard.

Elven Arcanum II
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 40, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +2. This enhancement requires at least two levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 60, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +3. This enhancement requires at least four levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum IV
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 80, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +4. This enhancement requires at least eight levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III actually always required four levels of wizard (the current description claimed it was two), and we're bumping up the requirements of IV.

Hmmm... Least a little boost 20sp and +4 Spell pen, yet competing with the gamut of entrenched WF wizards out there is still going to be a little tougher than that (That's one race has Wizard pretty locked in). Can anyone think of any feats or PrE's requiring greater spell pen?

Still one fact remains is two of the most used spells on end-game- Epics (Mass Hold and Web) have no SR.

[k1ngp1n]

i am not a 100 % sure but scimitars are better weapons for smiting

Negative. They have the same 'smite power' as khopeshes.

[muffinlad]

Elven Wizards will have an advantage at penetrating high spell resistance in Update 9. We're upgrading Elven Arcanum a little bit:

Elven Arcanum I
Benefit: Grants elven wizards a 20 point increase to spell points and +1 Spell Penetration. This enhancement requires at least one level of wizard.

Elven Arcanum II
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 40, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +2. This enhancement requires at least two levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 60, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +3. This enhancement requires at least four levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum IV
Benefit: Grants elven wizards an additional 20 spell points, bringing the total increase to 80, and an additional +1 to Spell Penetration, bringing the total bonus to +4. This enhancement requires at least eight levels of wizard.

Elven Arcanum III actually always required four levels of wizard (the current description claimed it was two), and we're bumping up the requirements of IV.

I like it. I would recommend that you make it

Lvl 1: 20 sp/1 Spell Pen
Lvl2: 20 sp/1 spell DC
Lvl3: 20sp/1 spell pen
Lvl4: 20sp/1 spell DC

So at level 4 it would give Elves 80 sp, 2 sp pen, 2 spell DC's.

Tough? You bet. But if you want to give Elves a real advantage that competes with Warforged self healing, let their spells land a bit harder.

Regs,

muffinspells

[sephiroth1084]

Hmmm... Least a little boost, yet competing with the gamut of WF wiz is still going to be a little tougher than that. Can anyone think of any feats or PrE's requiring greater spell pen?

I think this would be competitive, particularly on a Pale Master build, except that DCs are usually more important than Spell Pen, and elves aren't getting anything at all there.

If you were so tight on feats that you were considering ditching Greater Spell Pen, you'd probably just go human, since that just gives you the extra feat, along with the +1 to 2 stats and a few other, minor benefits (like an extra skill point vs. everyone but drow). You'd need to be so tight on feats that you'd drop both Spell Pen and GSP, while still having enough excess AP to afford this enhancement line before elf starts looking attractive, and I can't imagine that ever being the case.

I guess some people would take -1 DC for +4 Spell Pen if it were an even trade, but at the cost of all those enhancements?

Eladrin, is the line still going to be prices at 1, 2, 3, 4, or are you going to cost it differently? 1, 1, 1, 1 seems too low, but maybe 1, 2, 1, 2? Or 1, 2, 2, 3?

Or are elves going to get some other bonus to being a wizard? This is a nice line, but I feel like it will just go to waste since wizards generally don't need (or really want) Dex, are hurt a lot by -2 Con, and gain nothing else whatsoever from being an elf. Well...maybe as a Rog 2 build, to make up for the lost Spell Pen, but drow is probably doing a lot more for the character (+1 to more relevant skills and DCs, innate Spell Resistance).

On a side note, I'd really like to see more enhancement lines get their costs reevaluated in the same way (though not necessarily the same progression) as the skill lines did.

[stricq]

Im just struggling to think of what elves bring to the table thats so great and makes them stand out from the other races? AA? some people say that AA is just a flavour class? maybe one thats got some really great burst damage potential? But other than the +2 to hit and damage with bows and racial access to AA what else really?

Elves are the best looking race in the game. (Half-Elves are the ugliest.)