Devs: Barb PL WAI? Scheduled for nerf? Y/N?

[Monkey_Archer]

This is still correct. The past life is essentially intended to provide extra rages (generally to a non barbarian class), not improve existing ones.

Currently, this feat is essentially making barbarian splash builds viable by extending rages to a reasonable length. The extra 4 str/con is definitely over the top, but the main reason people chose this feat is for the extended rage. When this feat does get corrected, would it be possible to change the description to read:

You gain +1 hit point per character level, have +2 to your Intimidate skill and can enter a barbarian rage once per rest, or increase you current number of rages by 1 use per rest

It seems odd, but correcting this feat would take it from being a must have for any barbarian splash build, to a niche feat only desirable by intim tanks. I would hope it remains somewhat useful to the builds that currently use it.

[Shade]

Rule 1: We don't talk about fight club.

If people keep brining this up it will get nerfed because the devs love to nerf the things we love the most. Keep it quiet and maybe it won't.

Far as Eladrin or any DDO devs trying to tell us that things should work like the description says?

Have you ever logged into DDO and Actually looked closely at the description of things??
EVER?

HUNDREDS, if not thousands of things do NOT work per the description in ddo. That does not mean they deserve a nerf.

The past life feat is balanced as is for Barbarians. Understand the concept of how long and hard it tis to get and how few feats Barbarians get, and you would know that.
For non Barbarians - it needs improvement. Changing the clicky into just a +1 real rage (Eg uses con as duration, and all barb enhancements) as suggested and fixing the hitpoints would make it worthwhile for at least fighters with barb splash, if not other classes.

Or are should we just expect massive nerfs to all of the following itemsi n update 9 eladrin? :
Greater two handed fighting: Since beta this has always granted additional glancing blows on later attacks, yte the description never said so.. So great theres another nerf coming.
Spel clickies, they were ugpraded to go to +75% dmg instead of 50%, but the description does not say that, so caster - 25% damage nerfin update 9, enjoy.
Frenzy - Doesn't say anything about only working on 19-20, so woot update 9, we will get x6 crits on 15-20 with ESoS! Yay a non nerf for a change..
Madstone Boots - Say something about a +20% melee haste, but provide now.. So at least thats another fix we could expect at the same time? Or just going for nerfs this round?

Should I go on? Or do the you get the point taht the game can be fun and balanced despite the fact thing dont work as they say?

Fix descriptions, stop nerfing the game. Or youll lose me and many others as a customer again. Maybe only for 8 months like last time, maybe permanently.

Is it worth it Eladrin? For the sake of what? It's not like its some kind of mega unbalacning ability.

Think it out.

If anything, All past life feat should be balanced to be worth taking by the same class.
I mean the wizard one is AWESOME and better then a ton of othe feats (obviously every spell focus) and every wizard always takes it. Does it need a nerf?
Balance the feats out so there all wortwhile, don't nerf them down so there worthless. Your just making your own hard work go to waste if you did that.

[Shade]

The extra 4 str/con is definitely over the top

...
It's an average of 2 damage for a TAKEN feat. The monk one gives +1 dmg for FREE.

Not over the top.

Not in a game where we can get 100+ str and 80+ con. It's a pretty minor boost in damage and hp.

Not even close to "over the top"

Perhaps for a low lvl its a bit strong, but in the past Eladrin always said they think its fine to make low levels easier for TRs.

Nerf it and no one willl ever use it, making the game more boring.
Balance it out and make the other past life feats also useful to same-class TRs, and the game becomes more fun.

Only change i could see is a small decraese in the rage duration extension,. as it makes 1/2 barb splash build TRs too strong enabling near-perma rage. Perhaps drop it to +25 to +50% duration, instead of the massive ~+200-300% it gives now.

[Nick_RC]

Its a useless feat without the bug. nothing better than toughness. An extra 30 second rage is silly and shouldnt be classified as 'more rages'.

And more importantly you cant make any abusive builds using it - you HAVE to take at least 2 levels of barb to make it worth while which rules out paladin and monk splashing. Leave it be its not hurting anyone.

[LordPiglet]

Rule 1: We don't talk about fight club.

If people keep brining this up it will get nerfed because the devs love to nerf the things we love the most. Keep it quiet and maybe it won't.

Far as Eladrin or any DDO devs trying to tell us that things should work like the description says?

Have you ever logged into DDO and Actually looked closely at the description of things??
EVER?

HUNDREDS, if not thousands of things do NOT work per the description in ddo. That does not mean they deserve a nerf.

The past life feat is balanced as is for Barbarians. Understand the concept of how long and hard it tis to get and how few feats Barbarians get, and you would know that.
For non Barbarians - it needs improvement. Changing the clicky into just a +1 real rage (Eg uses con as duration, and all barb enhancements) as suggested and fixing the hitpoints would make it worthwhile for at least fighters with barb splash, if not other classes.

Or are should we just expect massive nerfs to all of the following itemsi n update 9 eladrin? :
Greater two handed fighting: Since beta this has always granted additional glancing blows on later attacks, yte the description never said so.. So great theres another nerf coming.
Spel clickies, they were ugpraded to go to +75% dmg instead of 50%, but the description does not say that, so caster - 25% damage nerfin update 9, enjoy.
Frenzy - Doesn't say anything about only working on 19-20, so woot update 9, we will get x6 crits on 15-20 with ESoS! Yay a non nerf for a change..
Madstone Boots - Say something about a +20% melee haste, but provide now.. So at least thats another fix we could expect at the same time? Or just going for nerfs this round?

Should I go on? Or do the you get the point taht the game can be fun and balanced despite the fact thing dont work as they say?

Fix descriptions, stop nerfing the game. Or youll lose me and many others as a customer again. Maybe only for 8 months like last time, maybe permanently.

Is it worth it Eladrin? For the sake of what? It's not like its some kind of mega unbalacning ability.

Think it out.

If anything, All past life feat should be balanced to be worth taking by the same class.
I mean the wizard one is AWESOME and better then a ton of othe feats (obviously every spell focus) and every wizard always takes it. Does it need a nerf?
Balance the feats out so there all wortwhile, don't nerf them down so there worthless. Your just making your own hard work go to waste if you did that.

Exactly, I used that rage like once, lol'd and went and swapped it for pl ranger. At least I got 3 uses of barkskin a day at 1 minute per level. Now if I had actually received the 1 hp per level instead of a whopping 5 total hp, then that might be different.

[Thrudh]

I change my vote... If nerfing this feat gets Shade to rage-quit again, I'm all for it...

(Just kidding!)

[sephiroth1084]

As much as I'd like to keep this on the down-low to avoid getting it nerfed, I'd rather know what the future holds going forward than be surprised down the line.

Looking at PL feats in general, I think the devs should maybe spend some more time analyzing what the purpose of the purchasable feats should be.

The Paladin PL is kind of worthless to a paladin, though not entirely so, until you also figure in their lack of feats.

The Barbarian PL, as it is written, is almost entirely worthless to everyone, and especially so to barbarians who are even tighter on feats than paladins.

The Monk PL doesn't to anything for anybody except monks.

If there doesn't need to be a consistency, that's fine, but at the very least each feat should have a sort of target audience that takes into account both the value of the effect of the feat and the possibility of that audience actually being able to acquire the feat.

Who would take the Barb PL as written? A fighter, maybe? Perhaps a monk? Anyone else? Would anyone be excited about it? Is it worth TRing a barbarian for? These are the questions that should have been asked when creating the PL feats. .For at least a few of them, this doesn't seem to have been done.

The Barbarian PL feat as it functions, is valuable to barbarians and forces a tough choice as to whether they can spare the feat, whether they should go human to gain a feat, or splash fighter for enough extra feats to fit the PL. That kind of hard choice is the mark of a quality feat that is neither too weak, nor too strong.

In addition to that excellent implementation, the feat really enables barbarian splashes, which otherwise are rather weak. Barb 6 is okay, but not as strong as many other 6-level splashes whose benefits aren't as time-limited. The Barb PL sets these splashes pretty close to being on par with other such build set-ups, and also gives some weight to a Barb 2 splash, which is otherwise entirely unremarkable.

All of that combined seems to indicate that the feat is doing as much as it should be, and doing it well, without being ridiculous. Is it a must-have for the primary barbarian? No. Is it a must-have for the barbarian 6? No, but it's very hard to justify that combination without it.

The game needs more variety in what feats everyone is looking to take. Let's make sure this one remains competitive.

[Hayday]

...
It's an average of 2 damage for a TAKEN feat. The monk one gives +1 dmg for FREE.

Not over the top.

Not in a game where we can get 100+ str and 80+ con. It's a pretty minor boost in damage and hp.

Not even close to "over the top"

It's also +40 hp, +2 to-hit, and +2 fortitude saves
That's the equivalent of 5 feats' worth of bonuses. (2x toughness, 2x weapon focus, and a fighter weapon specialization feat)

A bit overpowered IMO.

[sephiroth1084]

It's also +40 hp, +2 to-hit, and +2 fortitude saves
That's the equivalent of 5 feats' worth of bonuses. (2x toughness, 2x weapon focus, and a fighter weapon specialization feat)

A bit overpowered IMO.

I'm inclined to agree, but I think the issue is more complex than simply comparing this to other feats, and that there is a middle ground between leaving it as is and changing it to function as it reads.

On the first point, you don't need to cap a character and then level a character again with an extra XP burden in order to take Toughness, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization or Great Fortitude. Also, the feat doesn't meet any prerequisites, so you likely still want Toughness and it can't replace Weapon Focus. Then there is also th fact that it has fairly narrow restrictions on your build: you must have barbarian levels. And the feat is necessarily limited by how many rages you have. The other feats it compares to are going to be there for you to use in a 5 minute zergfest or a 3 hour nightmare, which is not true of this.

As for my second point, I suggested earlier that the bonuses to combat stats could be cut in half, while retaining the extension to the duration of your rages, which would drop the power level a bit, but still make the feat well worth having.

[Thrudh]

The Barbarian PL feat as it functions, is valuable to barbarians and forces a tough choice as to whether they can spare the feat, whether they should go human to gain a feat, or splash fighter for enough extra feats to fit the PL. That kind of hard choice is the mark of a quality feat that is neither too weak, nor too strong.

This... I splashed fighter for this feat... it was a hard choice.

The game needs more variety in what feats everyone is looking to take. Let's make sure this one remains competitive.

Agreed... The PL feats should all be competitive.

[Hayday]

Also, the feat doesn't meet any prerequisites, so you likely still want Toughness and it can't replace Weapon Focus. Then there is also the fact that it has fairly narrow restrictions on your build: you must have barbarian levels.

I was thinking of that too, but it was the best example I could come up with.

My vote goes to 1 minute +4 str/con rage clicky (no fatigue), 3/day
That would be decent enough to be considered by some builds, and matches the pattern of the other taken past-life feats.

[Thrudh]

I was thinking of that too, but it was the best example I could come up with.

My vote goes to 1 minute +4 str/con rage clicky (no fatigue), 3/day
It's a decent enough feat to be considered by some builds, and matches the pattern of the other taken past-life feats.

Yes, that's a good compromise... And useful for ALL melee classes, not just barbarians.

Note to Devs: No fatigue is important.

[jkm]

This is still correct. The past life is essentially intended to provide extra rages (generally to a non barbarian class), not improve existing ones.

can you give an example of said classes that could use it? there are only 2 that could possibly fit this in -> fighter, monk. and therein lies the flaw in your design -> your current system is heavily biased towards classes with a ton of bonus feats (fighters, monks, and wizards).

i keep harping on this, but the only way you can make the past life purchaseable feats not be a power creep for those 3 classes is to move them to the one game system where we all have equal footing -> action points. by moving it there, it also allows you the convenience of adding a lot of permutations to character builds for very little dev time.

[sephiroth1084]

can you give an example of said classes that could use it? there are only 2 that could possibly fit this in -> fighter, monk. and therein lies the flaw in your design -> your current system is heavily biased towards classes with a ton of bonus feats (fighters, monks, and wizards).

i keep harping on this, but the only way you can make the past life purchaseable feats not be a power creep for those 3 classes is to move them to the one game system where we all have equal footing -> action points. by moving it there, it also allows you the convenience of adding a lot of permutations to character builds for very little dev time.

While that would help there are certainly some characters that are far more AP starved than others. If the PL feats were converted to enhancements that cost only 1 AP, I'd be in favor of that, but not if they cost more.

[QuantumFX]

This is still correct. The past life is essentially intended to provide extra rages (generally to a non barbarian class), not improve existing ones.

You guys really need to sit down and think about the purpose of the purchasable PL feats. Each feat should provide a benefit for *any* class that takes it. As it stands right now you have:

Acolyte of Divine Secrets: A feat that’s only slightly more useful than SF: Bluff. At the very least you guys should change it to be Empower Spell plus the Avenging Light clickie.

Arcane Initiate: One of the more OP feats at least for casters. You could tone it back by coding it to act as a replacement (and locking out) any spell focus feat.

Arcane Prodigy: Yes, Sorcerors have a ton of spell points. This feat captures that feel. Why can’t it be used as a rereq for Spellsinger?

Bardic Dilettante: Currently, this isn’t an exceptionally bad feat. It just has very little use for an actual bard. With some of the benefits involved you guys should seriously consider making it a standin for some of the really bad PrE prereq feats. (Add it to the list of “Requires one of” feats for Spellsinger/Virtuoso and make it substitute for SF: Enchantment for Archmage.)

Berserker’s Fury: The current implementation is, somewhat, overpowered. However, it’s also a good example of the direction you guys should take past life feats. Going from class to same class via the True Reincarnation process should give some unique benefits.

Disciple of the Fist: Kind of the opposite of all the other feats available. It’s the only one that benefits the class that it’s based off of.

Initiate of the Faith: This feat should be the reason that a cleric wants to hit that TR button. Change it to Empowered Healing with the Healing Word clickie and have it substitute for Improved Heal II for Radiant Servant.

Sneak of Shadows: This is a great feat for any melee class that has a spare feat. Rogues are not on this list. At the very least add this as an option for the Rogue Class Feats.

Soldier of the Faith: I think the icon for this should be a photo of a human hand flipping the bird for any paladin that takes this. The paladin class is represented by Smite Evil and not Divine Favor. Rewrite this accordingly.

Student of the Sword: Not bad. However, it should be added to the “Requires one of:” list for Stalwart Defender. And it should be on the Figther bonus feat list.

Warrior of the Wild: Once again: Barkskin is *not* the sole domain of Rangers in D&D. Their particular area of expertise is Favored Enemies! Make the passive component of this feat become Favored Enemy: Giant!

[jkm]

While that would help there are certainly some characters that are far more AP starved than others. If the PL feats were converted to enhancements that cost only 1 AP, I'd be in favor of that, but not if they cost more.

finding 1 AP is a heck of a lot easier than finding 1 free feat out of 7.

the plan i proposed added 1 AP per past life (up to 3 per class). it filled in several weaknesses in the current PL setup as well as opening up permutations on APs.

[quityourjobs]

It's also +40 hp, +2 to-hit, and +2 fortitude saves
That's the equivalent of 5 feats' worth of bonuses. (2x toughness, 2x weapon focus, and a fighter weapon specialization feat)

A bit overpowered IMO.

So the Wizard PL is then worth EIGHT feats by that analysis?

[maddmatt70]

double post

[maddmatt70]

Its a useless feat without the bug. nothing better than toughness. An extra 30 second rage is silly and shouldnt be classified as 'more rages'.

And more importantly you cant make any abusive builds using it - you HAVE to take at least 2 levels of barb to make it worth while which rules out paladin and monk splashing. Leave it be its not hurting anyone.

Shrug its overpowered as is currently. We all know it is. The paladin and wizard ones are also overpowered compared to the others we all know this is true too. If you want to make a legitimate claim argue to improve the others and make suggestions to do so because 3 past life feats should not be far better then the others.

[Shade]

It's also +40 hp, +2 to-hit, and +2 fortitude saves
That's the equivalent of 5 feats' worth of bonuses. (2x toughness, 2x weapon focus, and a fighter weapon specialization feat)

A bit overpowered IMO.

The hitpoints ? perhaps. I'd drop the con bonus to +1 to balance it, while retaining +4 str. Also lower the rage duration bonus to +50%. That would be balanced. On par with other excellent dmg feats like power attack and GTHF, but not more powerful as to make the choice trivial.

The +2 to hit and fort save?
Meh. No real benefit to anyone who can make proper use of the feat anyways, we all hit everything on a 2 and a save on a 2. No difference.