PvP? Inquire Within.

[Llewndyn]

/end thread.

I DO have an NES, and I DO try to steal cars in Mario, but those Goombas are fast in their Patriots!

[hityawithastick]

This game is PVE, not PVP. There are other games that support PVP. You can play those games. You know, it's amazing. When you put Super Mario Bros. into your NES, do you get annoyed that you can't steal cars? These threads are so numerous there's not really any more fun in insulting them, so I will go a different route. To be realistic, I will say 85-90% of the people who play DDO are not interested in PVP, or if they are, are only interested in it as a time waster while waiting to delve back into the PVP aspects of the game. The VAST majority also is of the mind that since PVP is so unpopular, we don't want ANY developer time going toward PVP as that would take away from PVE, updates, bug fixes and the like. This leads to the same tired old arguments, which I will address now:

1. "Well I pay my money just like you do, and I want to make the game better for me" - THis argument is lame. Let's say I buy Grand Theft Auto 4. I decide since you can buy apartments and assorted properties that I want to beef that part of the game up and be able to go to hardware stores and really design these properties and sell them at a profit, possibly taking virtual clients on a walk through of each property and showing them what I did to fix them up. There may be 500 other people who would love if such an idea was implemented and get behind it. I pay for an XBox live subscription, so by that argument instead of working on content or doing anything else Rockstar should implement those changes so that the 500 of us, and MAYBE another 250 new players, will be happy with that tiny aspect of the game. That is bad business.

If you pay a sub, you pay it for a game with no emphasis on PVP. You knew that before you paid. You still paid. You have no more right than anyone else to have the game changed because you pay for it.

2. "Well it would be great to pull in new players!" - I am going to stereotype here. Most of the players I have met in PVP (I was a BF2 junkie) would add little if nothing to Eberron other than the same "Ha ha I just dominated your level 2 sorc with my level 20 barb you suck ROFLCPTR" clogging up gen chat as it does now. If PVP was beefed up significantly those people joining to PVP would care little about learning the PVE side and we already have enough of that now. In essence, most people who want this game to have a bigger influx of PVP we don't want here anyway.

3. "Every time there's a PVP thread all you do is put it down and insult me" - I am not insulting you. And yes, every time I see a "We need more PVP" thread I will post in it voicing my opinion just on the off chance a dev looks at this thread and thinks this is something the playerbase wants, because it isn't. Does my word count for more than yours? No, but the fact that for every 1 person who wants PVP to be bolstered there are at least 300 who don't, I want the devs to make a decision based on an accurate cross section of what the playerbase wants.

4. "Nerf slayer arrows!/ Make PVP specific items drop in quests!" - The problem with this argument, that we should change the way things work in PVE for the sake of PVP, is where does it end? And again points to my original point that this game is made with PVE in mind, it would annoy and possible render moot all the builds who had been made to take advantage of something if that was nerfed or changed to work in PVP.

My final point: You ever play elf bowling on your computer? Decent little time waster while you are at work. Then they make a Wii version of the game and it was terrible, because it was still elf bowling, which should have never been more than a free little time waster. Do genuine bowling enthusiasts enjoy the dynamics and physics of the ball? No. There are better games out there for lovers of bowling, and for lovers of elves. That's not the niche that elf bowling was trying to fill, someone thought it was a good idea to try to MAKE it fit that niche, and it failed. Bolstering PVP would be the same thing.

Llewndyn, out.

I am one of the 1 in 300 supporting PVP, but I must tip my hat to your wall of text, sir.

Also...do people really want PVP items to drop in quests? That's kinda silly.

[Faerbaste]

Since the Theory of Gravity is also a theory, I don't think you're going to get what you're looking for here.

Sorry to be picky but what you're referring to as the Theory of Gravity is known to the rest of the world as Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation and it was published in Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica in 1687.

In science, once a theory has been tested by experiment and proved, it becomes a Law.

[PopeJual]

Sorry to be picky but what you're referring to as the Theory of Gravity is known to the rest of the world as Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation and it was published in Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica in 1687.

In science, once a theory has been tested by experiment and proved, it becomes a Law.

Since Einstein came along in the last century and "disproved" Newton's "Law" I'll have to give you a big fat F in science there. I'm an enormous fan of Sir Isaac Newton and I even invite all of my relatives over to my house to celebrate on his birthday, but it's just plain silly to think that the "Law" that he proposed in his Principia is somehow absolute Truth with a capital T that can never be negated.

Nothing is ever "proven" in science since science uses inductive reasoning to arrive at useful models for physical phenomena. You can't "prove" something with inductive reasoning (although you certainly can disprove something using it) since there could always be a counterexample that negates the theory that you just haven't yet encountered. The most that inductive reasoning can provide is solid evidence that you have created a useful model of a phenomenon.

[Hendrik]

Since Einstein came along in the last century and "disproved" Newton's "Law" I'll have to give you a big fat F in science there. I'm an enormous fan of Sir Isaac Newton and I even invite all of my relatives over to my house to celebrate on his birthday, but it's just plain silly to think that the "Law" that he proposed in his Principia is somehow absolute Truth with a capital T that can never be negated.

Nothing is ever "proven" in science since science uses inductive reasoning to arrive at useful models for physical phenomena. You can't "prove" something with inductive reasoning (although you certainly can disprove something using it) since there could always be a counterexample that negates the theory that you just haven't yet encountered. The most that inductive reasoning can provide is solid evidence that you have created a useful model of a phenomenon.

Cannot forget Hawking and his vast contribution.

[Uska]

So I posted this like a week ago and just checked it, 5 pages of flaming replies. Ok.

After skimming some of this garbage spam, I'd like to point out that you DDO nerds don't read. Whatsoever.

8/10 of the posts I read were you people crying about balancing classes for pvp and how bad this would be for pve.

Not once (I'm far too lazy to scroll up and read what i initially posted btw) did i say ANYTHING about balancing classes. I said I want a bigger PVP area and/or more areas to PVP in. I like the classes how they are. Now stop e-whining and suggest something.

we did we dont want pvp

[Lorien_the_First_One]

So I posted this like a week ago and just checked it, 5 pages of flaming replies. Ok.

After skimming some of this garbage spam, I'd like to point out that you DDO nerds don't read. Whatsoever.

8/10 of the posts I read were you people crying about balancing classes for pvp and how bad this would be for pve.

Not once (I'm far too lazy to scroll up and read what i initially posted btw) did i say ANYTHING about balancing classes. I said I want a bigger PVP area and/or more areas to PVP in. I like the classes how they are. Now stop e-whining and suggest something.

Ok.

I'd suggest name calling doesn't contribute to discussion.

I'd suggest people who use that method of debate aren't really a people we want to encourage in this game.

I'd suggest that language seems to come from PvP supporters a lot.

Based on all of the above, I'd support moving the existing PvP pits onto L40 and above ships only. Get it out of the taverns, and stop development on them.

[PopeJual]

So I posted this like a week ago and just checked it, 5 pages of flaming replies. Ok.

After skimming some of this garbage spam, I'd like to point out that you DDO nerds don't read. Whatsoever.

8/10 of the posts I read were you people crying about balancing classes for pvp and how bad this would be for pve.

Not once (I'm far too lazy to scroll up and read what i initially posted btw) did i say ANYTHING about balancing classes. I said I want a bigger PVP area and/or more areas to PVP in. I like the classes how they are. Now stop e-whining and suggest something.

Can I have my infraction point now or do I actually have to make the suggestion first?

[Yajerman01]

Can I have my infraction point now or do I actually have to make the suggestion first?

your the one that likes to police that, so perhaps you know the answer to that question yourself.

Too bad you cannot self inflict.

[hityawithastick]

your the one that likes to police that, so perhaps you know the answer to that question yourself.

Too bad you cannot self inflict.

Wouldn't he be a forum necromancer then? :P

[Calebro]

So I posted this like a week ago and just checked it, 5 pages of flaming replies. Ok.

After skimming some of this garbage spam, I'd like to point out that you DDO nerds don't read. Whatsoever.

8/10 of the posts I read were you people crying about balancing classes for pvp and how bad this would be for pve.

Not once (I'm far too lazy to scroll up and read what i initially posted btw) did i say ANYTHING about balancing classes. I said I want a bigger PVP area and/or more areas to PVP in. I like the classes how they are. Now stop e-whining and suggest something.

5 pages of explanations why the balancing would be required for something like this, and you have absolutely no comprehension of the problem. Whatsoever.

9/10 of the flames were your doing because of posts that were eaten by the cube, and yet you're calling us the flamers.

Not once have you accepted any other opinion as being open to discussion, when the OP specifically asks for it. Now stop e-whining and start an "I Love PvP, /sign this if you do too" thread, because that's obviously what you wanted this thread to be.

[hityawithastick]

Now stop e-whining and start an "I Love PvP, /sign this if you do too" thread, because that's obviously what you wanted this thread to be.

I love forum rage, /sign if you do too.

[Calebro]

I love forum rage, /sign if you do too.

/signed

[PopeJual]

your the one that likes to police that, so perhaps you know the answer to that question yourself.

Too bad you cannot self inflict.

Can you even explain what you mean by that?

I'm sure that you made sense in your own head, but it wasn't at all clear to me, so perhaps a restatement of your post might help.


Were you just saying that I've reported you in the past for an obnoxious post? I don't remember doing so, but I suppose it's possible if you had written something that was really amazingly offensive.

If that is what you're talking about, then feel free to send me a PM of the post that you're talking about since forum discussion of disceplenary action by Turbine moderators just invites infraction points.

[Pape_27]

Since the Theory of Gravity is also a theory, I don't think you're going to get what you're looking for here.

It's certainly possible that human nature is somehow different in DDO than in every other MMO that has been made. Doesn't seem all that likely, though.

Gravity is not just a "theory"; there's theory and then there is scientific theory... just remember that there is a difference.

[Yajerman01]

Can you even explain what you mean by that?

I'm sure that you made sense in your own head, but it wasn't at all clear to me, so perhaps a restatement of your post might help.


Were you just saying that I've reported you in the past for an obnoxious post? I don't remember doing so, but I suppose it's possible if you had written something that was really amazingly offensive.

If that is what you're talking about, then feel free to send me a PM of the post that you're talking about since forum discussion of disceplenary action by Turbine moderators just invites infraction points.

If you are unable to comprehend that and/or are intentionally being obtuse, then I do not feel further ellaboration is required.

[PopeJual]

If you are unable to comprehend that and/or are intentionally being obtuse, then I do not feel further ellaboration is required.

Nah, just forgetful. I'm sure I've aggrivated, irritated or generally annoyed a lot of people in the past year and a half. You'll just have to remind me of which particular thing I did to aggrivate you since I really don't remember.

[stille_nacht]

so this thread went pretty much how i thought it would, simple request, a few rational responses, about 3 pages of flaming, but then a random thing about scientific theoreis o-O.

my 2 cp, spend about 3 seconds in a pvp pit and you realize how ridiculously unbalanced the classes are against each other, wizards, who are actually gimp DPS in PvE are in fact damage monsters, one shotting barbs at times. Then, people get pale lavendar stones and become essentially immune to wizard.

for an actual pvp system to emerge, theyd need a seperate "PvP" server, in which all spells/ skills were reworked for balance, as well as barring several items. This is extremely resource intensive, so probably wont happened.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Oh, and OP, you might want to quickly don some flame retardant clothing... The fires are coming, and they are going to be hotter than a fire spec sorc's stacked firewalls.

Firewalls don't stack except against mobs that spawn in, as the OP was here first he'll only be hit by 1 firewall (2-3 at most if the walls are placed side by side). **** I wish you people would learn how spells work (looking at you divines who overlap my blade barriers!).

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or not, but to spell it out simply.

The predominately PvE nature of the game has achieved some vestige of balance with the classes/races/gear available versus the quest npc's, raid bosses and so on.

But, there is actually very little balance when it comes to player characters against each other, seeing as the specialties of each class/race combination can be very extreme.

There is a lot of min/max going on, and from a PvE perspective, specialisation with good party makeup will bring all elements against a particular dungeon/raid/boss for maximum effectiveness.

But, the varying classes against each other are not balanced at all.

Now, if an attempt was made to balance the classes against each other, it would drastically alter the face of the PvE game, destroying years of work balancing the classes and players against the quests.

Hope that helps, if not, read the PvP area of the forums, many people have spelled it out in a much simpler fashion many times.

Coit out~

This is rhetoric that I hear all the time which simply isn't true. D&D is a party based game and it isn't balanced for solo play if you are in a PVE or PVP context. Any PVP that ever comes to DDO will have to be group based in one context or other which destroys all (ok most) of your arguments.

What about group based pvp? ie 5 on 5 party make up is up to players? Im not a huge pvp fan but i do feal at some point turbine will improve there existing pvp system. If you do not want to pvp im sure you wouldnt have to but for those who do as in other mmos im sure turbine would be glad to attract more players.

Yes! Actually, my idea is a DotA style map which pits P&EvP&E. Making the buildings immune to magic and piercing damage will balance just about every class without any change to DDO at all. To balance rogues/stealth based characters you would have to make it possible to sneak in PVP which signifies a slight change to DDO that I'm not sure anyone would complain about.

And for anyone who complains that investment into PVP means less investment into PVE remember:

They can make money off of PVP too, so dont narrow your point of view with generic fodder!

I support this with evidence from the wiki (linked above):

Since its original release, DotA has become a feature at several worldwide tournaments, including Blizzard Entertainment's BlizzCon and the Asian World Cyber Games, as well as the Cyberathlete Amateur and CyberEvolution leagues; Gamasutra declared that DotA was perhaps the most popular "free, non-supported game mod in the world".[4] Valve Corporation is currently developing a sequel, Dota 2.

I'm not sure if there are copywrite issues with the use of the concept but I have seen clones of it in many games and done in many ways (3 corridors, a dota map in NWN). Additionally, there are 2 dota clone f2p/freemium games which have rate in the top 10 most played games on xfire (LoL is at number 4 with about half as much playtime as WoW), DDO is down in the 40s I think. DDO is ideal for the concept, it relies on a varying level of balance between 1 on 1 confrontations forcing people to rely on each other for support in achieving a variety of goals (killing creeps, killing enemy heroes, killing enemy buildings, defending your own creeps, defending your own buildings, upgrading creeps and gear, completing optional objectives).

The leveling aspects of the DotA map might be problematic but there is a variety of ways to overcome starting from ignoring it altogether which would be totally fine (and hence not requiring any developer hours, just go in at your level and do the quest and stay there). There are many alternatives however which could be utilised to determine the length of a match which would involve being deleveled 1-20 levels and then being able to regain them over the course of the match at a super increased rate (I'd suggest the possibility to gain 10 levels in 1.5 hours, a shorter match would mean a lower level cap). If there are issues with class balance at particular levels (like 20) then you can just set the match to cap out at a lower level, maybe level 10?

Items are another issue of course. Ideally, you would want the option to strip off all items from all characters and have to rely on gear given in the quest, this would keep things balanced for everyone. Alternatively, being able to take a small amount or even all gear in would be another good option for those high powered geared toons to have some fun too.

So, this is my suggestion. As far as developer hours goes I don't think it would be a big deal. Firstly, an existing wilderness area could be used for the map. After that, you just have to have place the "bases" and some "turrets" and then put the creeps with appropriate pathing. 2 teams of 1-6, and wa la! You have a map which could be awesome fun and generate huge amounts of revenue.

[rocky0]

I have read many of the PvP threads, mainly because of boredom, and it would seem to me in my own humble opinion, that there are more who want PvP gone than those who want it kept in the game. Now being that it is part of the game and removing it, would be unfair to those who like it and that I'm guessing that in removing it could cause problems within the game itself, I have, what I think anyway, is a simple solution.

Leave the PvP in, make no changes EXCEPT this one very, very, very important one. Give the PVP'ers their own channel for their chatting. When they are in the pits, they cannot use any channel but the brawling channel. This way they can concentrate killing each other and bragging about who is the most uber in the land. It also would be beneficial to everyone else because we wouldn't have to hear all the chest beating, insults, crying, and name calling that always comes from the pits.

So much grief could be ended if the PVP'ers could not be seen AND heard. My apologies to good PVP'ers but there are too many bad examples of people causing issues with this stuff. I only play on Sarlona and have no idea what it is like on other servers. So many times arguements get started because of the insults coming out of the pits and soon it gets worse.

I know I can squelch these people but my squelch list can only block so many and there are way more than I have room for on my list