END Game: Nerf Hold Monster

[sephiroth1084]

Ok so when you get to End Game its HOLD MONSTER+Dreamsplitter(insert other lvl drain item here) thats it. Seems pretty repetitive.

Please fix.

No I dont want to STOP grouping with a caster at end game so keep it real.

No.

The problem is not with Hold Monster, but with epics. Epic monsters have too many immunities and too much HP, making getting trash into auto-crit status basically the only reasonable way to run most epics unless you enjoy spending an incredible amount of time in every single encounter.

Their post-nerf lowered saves are also an issue, as using other forms of CC, like Web and Irresistible Dance, kind of got back-burnered when nearly any caster can attain a sufficient Mass Hold DC.

It's epic quests that need a revision, not Mass Hold.

[Chai]

/facepalm.

How about un-nerfing most of the other options so we have a list of tactics that actually work to choose from rather than one or two that actually work.

You want to be less repetitive, but nerfing makes the game more so due to removing options. Players will simply gravitate to the few things left that work.

More things that work = less repetition.

[fuzzy1guy]

Nerf?

No.

How bout they just get around to fixing mass hold monster and mass hold person. They're both missing their spell resistance check.

Other than that. nothing wrong with them.

[DanteEnFuego]

A thread like this comes up every other day, figure I might as well ask . . .

Does anyone NOT think epic combat is stupid? Pretty much everyone posting is in agreement that the current hold/stun mobs with a zillion HP is the special-Olympics of DDO. Does anyone think this is actually a good gaming experience?

As a member of the guild f/k/a "Special Olympians" I am hurt by this comment...
Other than that, I say we have other tactics available before nerfing.

[redoubt]

A thread like this comes up every other day, figure I might as well ask . . .

Does anyone NOT think epic combat is stupid? Pretty much everyone posting is in agreement that the current hold/stun mobs with a zillion HP is the special-Olympics of DDO. Does anyone think this is actually a good gaming experience?

I don't.

I rarely play epic for that reason. Epic has faults that push me away. I don't like the extreme rarity of drops nor do I like blanket immunites.

For the topic of mass hold monster, don't you dare touch it. Turbine has already beat on CC (enchantment spec) casters too much.

[stille_nacht]

i think what you mean is

UN NERF- everything that is currently unusable because of blanket immunities, AC, spell damage

NERF- ridiculous hp values, damage (to a lesser degree)

basically reformat epic

[DinoBaggio]

Nerf?

No.

How bout they just get around to fixing mass hold monster and mass hold person. They're both missing their spell resistance check.

Other than that. nothing wrong with them.

+1 Makes no sense, apart from a lazy way to make epics easier.

[sirgog]

We did manage epics just fine before the Minion debuff made Mass Hold effective.

[sephiroth1084]

We did manage epics just fine before the Minion debuff made Mass Hold effective.

They were certainly a lot more interesting then.

[Goldeneye]

No. CC/Auto-crit are what makes running epics possible without 50 mana pots. If mass hold got nerfed epics would be impossible to run because the healers would go into hiding.

(add to the fact that there is very little good gear for clerics as is)

[sephiroth1084]

No. CC/Auto-crit are what makes running epics possible without 50 mana pots. If mass hold got nerfed epics would be impossible to run because the healers would go into hiding.

That's not really true. Mass Hold didn't work nearly as well in Epic Desert content as it does now when that first went epic. We used Otto's Irresistible Dance, Web, Energy Drain (1-3 times) + Flesh to Stone, disco ball (which was pretty weak), and usually 2 or 3 castings of Mass Hold per small group, sometimes more. Holding a caster was nearly impossible due to their higher Will saves (compare that to now). And that was before either PM or AM came out.

[alcosebahair]

Ok so when you get to End Game its HOLD MONSTER+Dreamsplitter(insert other lvl drain item here) thats it. Seems pretty repetitive.

Please fix.

No I dont want to STOP grouping with a caster at end game so keep it real.

m

/no
are you on drugs?

[Kmnh]

Nerf that spell and you won't ever see an arcane caster on an epic quest again. Anyone with umd and ice storm scrolls can perform the "perch and DoT" dance

[sephiroth1084]

Nerf that spell and you won't ever see an arcane caster on an epic quest again. Anyone with umd and ice storm scrolls can perform the "perch and DoT" dance

Again, false.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

i think what you mean is

UN NERF- everything that is currently unusable because of blanket immunities, AC, spell damage

NERF- ridiculous hp values, damage (to a lesser degree)

basically reformat epic

Oh. Right.
Put the easy button in epics as well, like they've done with the rest of the game.

They need to make epics harder, and up the rewards and their drop rates. I mean balanced against a full group decked in greensteel harder.
The only groups that supposed to be able to treat the easier epic quests like we treat shroud today are groups of TRs decked in epic gear.

Epics, are supposed to be EPIC. This means that a newly made character that just hit 20 is not supposed to fair well in there (imo).

[NaturalHazard]

Why nerf a valid tactic. I say add more ways to do epics, but do not nerf mass hold monster.

this

[sirgog]

That's not really true. Mass Hold didn't work nearly as well in Epic Desert content as it does now when that first went epic. We used Otto's Irresistible Dance, Web, Energy Drain (1-3 times) + Flesh to Stone, disco ball (which was pretty weak), and usually 2 or 3 castings of Mass Hold per small group, sometimes more. Holding a caster was nearly impossible due to their higher Will saves (compare that to now). And that was before either PM or AM came out.

My groups tended to use Displacement as the main damage mitigation alongside Irresistable Dance. Holds were seldom used. Eventually we realised that stunning was fairly effective, but the early completions were all done without any Hold effects at all.

This was before they nerfed the epic mob's ACs (most dropped about 5 points; Raiyum used to be 74 AC), DRs (most were halved from 40 to 20) and long before Minion weakened them more.

[sephiroth1084]

My groups tended to use Displacement as the main damage mitigation alongside Irresistable Dance. Holds were seldom used. Eventually we realised that stunning was fairly effective, but the early completions were all done without any Hold effects at all.

This was before they nerfed the epic mob's ACs (most dropped about 5 points; Raiyum used to be 74 AC), DRs (most were halved from 40 to 20) and long before Minion weakened them more.

Tended to throw a Mass Hold then dance anything that didn't get stuck, while 1 or 2 melees were swinging stunners. Another melee was often tasked with using Improved Destruction to set up the stunners on the tougher to hit guys. Mass Hold was grabbing one, maybe 2, monsters in a pack, usually for only a few seconds. Stunning was definitely the better option.

I like epics a little bit more now on my caster, though if I'd had the DCs then I have now I'd have been pretty happy, and like epics less on my melees.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Ok so when you get to End Game its HOLD MONSTER+Dreamsplitter(insert other lvl drain item here) thats it. Seems pretty repetitive.

Please fix.

No I dont want to STOP grouping with a caster at end game so keep it real.

I'd be totally fine with epic spellcasters casting protection from good, FoM, protection from elements, fire resistance, (un)holy aura etc.

Epic is a bit boring, I'd love to see less linear progress.

[Roman]

Ok so when you get to End Game its HOLD MONSTER+Dreamsplitter(insert other lvl drain item here) thats it. Seems pretty repetitive.

Please fix.

No I dont want to STOP grouping with a caster at end game so keep it real.

What your really saying, I think, is that it is lame that there is only one tactic that is so overwhelmingly effective compared to all other tactics that it would be silly to not use it.

I agree, but even if this tactic is nerfed, a new tactic will simply take its place as the preferred tactic and it will be equally boring and repetitive. The problem isn't that mass hold + lvl drain is effective. The problem is that there is not a variety of other tactics that are equally effective.