horcrobat questions

[chodelord]

making a horc acrobat and debating on build

options

1. 20 rogue
2. 13 rogue 7 monk

rogue levels 14-20 gets

3d6 sneak damage from rogue levels
4d6 capstone sneak damage
crippling strike
+1 all skills

monk 7

4 feats -1 to qualify for monk prc
monk stances (probably use wind?)
low level monk strikes
monk prc (probably light for self heals and group buffs)
fast movement
disease immunity (freeing up item slot on some fights)
monk ac bonus (but it will suck because hey half orc)
monk animal enhancement (tortoise, crane, monkey?)
light fists for the heal

another option is to add fighter 1 instead of monk 7, that adds a feat but gives up fists of light monk improved recovery 2 if i can find the AP for it

what is everyone's opinion on these options?

[t0r012]

making a horc acrobat and debating on build

options

1. 20 rogue
2. 13 rogue 7 monk
3. 19 rogue 1 monk
4. 17 rogue 3 monk


rogue levels 14-20 gets

3d6 sneak damage from rogue levels
4d6 capstone sneak damage
crippling strike
+1 all skills

monk 7

4 feats -1 to qualify for monk prc
monk stances (probably use wind?) likely the best choice doublestrike is nice. speed boost is good when not hasted, plus Dex boost for extra point of SA damage
low level monk strikes
monk prc (probably light for self heals and group buffs)I don't even take shintao I on my monks till I need it to get tier II
fast movement
disease immunity (freeing up item slot on some fights)
monk ac bonus (but it will suck because hey half orc) no penalty to wisdom on half orc so it is free AC
monk animal enhancement (tortoise, crane, monkey?) more HP turtle or resists monkey probably the way to go.
light fists for the heal a little free healing is better than none but you will probably stick more with damage strikes.

another option is to add fighter 1 instead of monk 7, that adds a feat but gives up fists of light monk improved recovery 2 if i can find the AP for it No the big loss from monk 7 is wholeness of body. Not having any other source of amp makes improved recovery I & II pretty much a waste of points, you aren't going to have that many hp as a mostly rogue to have it make a difference.

what is everyone's opinion on these options?

7d6 is a lot to give up and it locks you out of acrobat 3 when it comes out.
19/1 keeps 3d6 sneak and no worries on acrobat3
17/3 gets movement and animal but does give up an SA die on 19/1 but is only an LR away from acro3 when it comes out
for 13/7 you get wholeness and tierII stances and have the option of going for monk PrC which would be much better suited for Ninja rather than shintao. pick up a sneak die and shadow fade.

just started another acro myself and decided on the 19/1 after considering a 13r/6f/1m but didn't want to be arsed with doing the whole tactics thing the fighter levels open up and want to keep acroIII on the table.

[Nerveya]

Well, it would help significantly to know your starting stats, TR or no TR, access to items/tomes/etc... but I can give you general advice without them.

First off, I'm assuming you'll be taking opportunist and Imp Eva (I mean... come on heh). Since I can't see exact starting stats, I'll assume a main focus on STR (THF afterall), with DEX (acro DEX SA bonus) and CON pretty equivalent w/ maybe a little INT (though I don't recommend it). And I don't recommend taking the lightside monk PRE (maybe darkside, but not light) and darkside isn't the way to go unless you have 9 monk levels tbh though shadow fade is pretty nice...

Ok, for the 20 Rogue Option:
Pros:
7d6 SA damage is quite a bit
You get access to SA Accuracy IV (lots of AP for just 1 to-hit while SA'ing, but some people think it's worth it)

Cons:
The lack of feats and low hit-dice really hurts you sometimes.
Your BAB is less than that of a monk splash (flurry of blows and all)
Though Opportunist helps, 40% fort on Raid Bosses cuts your SA damage effectively in half and 100% fort targets are a bust.
+1 Skills and Crippling Strike are fluff, at best.

13 Rogue/7 Monk Option:
Pros:
More BAB
Gain Wind Stance for 5% Doublestrike (pretty neat with opportunist)
Gain 4 Feats for toughness (even with Wind stance, net gain!)
Better Saves (9/13/9 as opposed to 6/12/6)
Fists of Light and Healing Ki
Improved Recovery II
Animal Path II (Hound or Tortoise are your best bets, though monkey makes up for the -2 Trap Sense you're losing)
Strikes (hurray, extra damage)
Group Buffs (Hurray, +1 to hit and skills anyway!)
Movement Speed (Minor, but fun nonetheless)
Disease Immunity (fun I guess)
Wholeness of Body!

Cons:
Less SA damage
Gain only Doublestrike and monk strikes for damage
Lose Skillpoints
Lose 2 extra rogue feats (oh noes)

Overall, just by the list, I'd say from both personal experience and on-paper experience that 13/7 is the better. Though you do lose the SA damage, you gain HP, saves, damage w/ ki strikes, survivability via healing amp and fists of light, some SA due to wind stance, Doublestrike, and quite a bit of to-hit while only losing 2 rogue feats, skillpoints, and SA accuracy IV.

Another Option is to forgo the 7th monk level for, say, fighter or ranger. No loss in BAB, lose only 10% healing amp and wholeness of body (that's what pots are for anyway <.<), but gain either 12 HP from fighter (toughness enhancement and 1d10 hit dice) and a feat or favored enemy bonus damage for one enemy (evil outsiders maybe ) for ranger. Another fantastic option is the 13 Rogue/6Fighter/1 Monk option. Same feats, but you can get stunning blow, kensai (hurray for ki!), maintain valuable BAB, and have quite a bit of extra HP at the cost of survivability of course. There are other variants, but I don't want to get into them since I have no real first-hand knowledge of them. That and Acrobat III is on the horizon, so it's tough to lock out that.

Regardless of your choice, I wouldn't suggest 20 rogue to anyone wanting to build an acrobat. There's too much synergy in monk and fighter to warrant limiting yourself to only rogue! Splashing is the way to go. Not only will your to-hit won't be enough to fully utilize your SA damage in epics (and most raid bosses have 50% fort anyway), you're missing out on so much potential. Good luck and I hope this helped!

[Bunker]

1. 20 rogue
2. 13 rogue 7 monk
3. 19 rogue 1 monk
4. 17 rogue 3 monk
5. 18 rogue 1 monk 1 fighter
6. 13 rogue 6 fighter 1 monk
7. 12 rogue 6 fighter 2 monk
8. 12 rogue 6 monk 2 fighter

edit: of course, some time in the future (soon hopefully) we will see acrobat III @ lvl 18 rogue. Of course, that is the good thing about reincarnations, lessers/greaters.

[Cardtrick]

The mere fact that you're considering a 20 rogue says that you're not totally sold on the monk idea. In that case, another option to consider is 13 rogue/6 fighter (kensai I)/1 monk. I have one, and I love it -- kensai and the extra feats makes a significant difference to staff dps, and the extra strength (from fighter enhancements) and fighter strategy enhancements (along with horc strength) allow a very strong Stunning Blow DC. Check out this thread, and especially this post by t0r012 for more discussion on the advantages/disadvantages of the various horc acrobat options.

Regardless of your choice, I wouldn't suggest 20 rogue to anyone. Splashing is the way to go.

I would agree with this if it read:

Regardless of your choice, I wouldn't suggest 20 rogue to anyone planning an acrobat staff build, at least not until we know what Acrobat III will bring. Splashing is the way to go.

A 20 rogue Assassin III is a very powerful option (although not what the OP wants).

[chodelord]

Thanks fighter6 is an interesting choice I never considered

then if I skipped monk I could do fighter 6 barb 1 for the movement speed and the extra power attack damage....

[elujin]

i have a 13/6/1 rog fighter monk stunner build and i am verry happy its a beast

[Nerveya]

I would agree with this if it read:

Regardless of your choice, I wouldn't suggest 20 rogue to anyone planning an acrobat staff build, at least not until we know what Acrobat III will bring. Splashing is the way to go.

A 20 rogue Assassin III is a very powerful option (although not what the OP wants).

Ah yes, I meant within the realms of his OP. I edited my post to specify

[chodelord]

I put together 13 rogue 6 fighter 1 barb build and didn't like the results

the AP usage was way too tight to get all the goodies for a marginal benefit of kensai 1

fighter 6 gives the weapon specialization and focus feats and fighter str 2

kensai 1 gives +1 hit +2 damage and +4(x2) on crits but costs 11 action points the prc

the build right doesn't have room for the last sneak enhancements, subtle backstab, most of the toughness enhancements, and has a mediocre reflex save

too bad you can't have monk and barb together....

[kernal42]

I put together 13 rogue 6 fighter 1 barb build and didn't like the results

the AP usage was way too tight to get all the goodies for a marginal benefit of kensai 1

fighter 6 gives the weapon specialization and focus feats and fighter str 2

kensai 1 gives +1 hit +2 damage and +4(x2) on crits but costs 11 action points the prc

the build right doesn't have room for the last sneak enhancements, subtle backstab, most of the toughness enhancements, and has a mediocre reflex save

too bad you can't have monk and barb together....

Pure rogue beats the 13/6/1 split in the dps race. The reason to splash 6 fighter isn't for the (loss of) dps, but for the increase of stunning blow DC. Rogue/Fighter/Monk has its DC 1 below a fully-raged Rogue/Barb/Fighter (still above 40 with a +10 stunner), but sustainable and you can still do traps.

Cheers,
Kernal