Fire vs Wind Stance

[Zharfie]

I prefer to run in fire stance pretty much always, save for few rare occasions... even with oremi's necklace I run out of ki in fire stance... in wind stance I'd be out of ki all the time when my ToD cooldown is done... still...

stop caring about the dps so much! it's like super minor difference >.< it's a game, use whichever you feel like suits you best

[sephiroth1084]

stop caring about the dps so much! it's like super minor difference >.< it's a game, use whichever you feel like suits you best

Those comments come after figuring out the differences.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Wind stance, in ideal situations, out DPSes Sun.

The only time it doesn't is against high AC targets, though often with ship/party buffs your to-hit can get pretty high anyway. Auto-crit mobs obviously favour Wind a lot more than they favour Sun.

So really, Wind is best in any non-Epic, against any stunned/held mob, and against Epic Velah.

And Sun is better in the eADQ2 fight, and against the djinns in eVON6.

I would suggest building for the content you run most often, since neither is the "max DPS" stance anymore.


The other thing to consider is that the strikes you get from the Wind stance work against devils, while the strikes from Sun do not. This can be an issue if you're tight on APs (and thus can't get the Void line), as a Horc Ninja Spy would be.

Though, I also agree with this argument.

I say wind. And I'm cool. That should be enough.

From what I've read from the devs, you shouldn't be able to doublestrike on a doublestrike.

That's what I remember reading as well.

[Kinerd]

So, 111.3 is the amount of attacks a level 20 monk has per minute. So, with 80% offhand proc fire stance 4 will add ...

111.3*1.8*2/60 = 6.678 DPS

This is not quite right. +2 damage for an Improved Critical unarmed attack will be +(1 * 0 + 17 * 2 + 2 * 4) / 20 = +2.1. It doesn't matter much here numerically, but it's good to know if you ever start doing (for instance) Barbarian calculations.

Well, as a former Wind Stance Monk, I can tell you (at least for me anyway) Ki generation wasn't much of a problem even when using the Shintao set.

Indeed. Even with no Crane and no Oremi, a monk generates 55.5 ki per 15 seconds if hitting on a 2. (Each rank of Crane is worth about 5.3 more ki per 15 seconds.) After Touch of Death, the benefits of more ki strikes are not very remarkable, and double-strike becomes more important. Generating enough ki to keep an elemental strike IV up is only about 12 DPS, so for most level 20 monks a 10% double-strike chance (1.9/1.8 total modifier multiplied by haste) will be way more important.

[Anthios888]

Even with no Crane and no Oremi, a monk generates 55.5 ki per 15 seconds if hitting on a 2. (Each rank of Crane is worth about 5.3 more ki per 15 seconds.) After Touch of Death, the benefits of more ki strikes are not very remarkable, and double-strike becomes more important. Generating enough ki to keep an elemental strike IV up is only about 12 DPS, so for most level 20 monks a 10% double-strike chance (1.9/1.8 total modifier multiplied by haste) will be way more important.

Exactly. And one stun gets you enough ki to go for ages. Maybe it's because my monk has like 40 wisdom, but I have never understood the ki generation arguments. I guess I should say that 80% of what I run is epic 6-man content. Keeping up unbalancing strike, void III and IV, stunning fist, dark punch, curse of the void, touch of despair, and touch of death are always priorities before Earth III / IV. But even with all of that going on... I rarely have to do more than just pay attention to cooldowns and manage my rotation to have enough for ToD every cooldown. You generate sooo much ki on autocrit, especially if you are running crane.

Someone should also note that sun stance gives -2 wis, so -1 DC on stunning fist.

The person who said it right was the one who said, "play what you feel like." Monks may be the most elusive and variable class in DDO (and also the most rewarding!). Do whatever floats your boat. I'm Rockan. I like to attack fast and stun things. I have had a monk problem for over a year now.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Wind stance, in ideal situations, out DPSes Sun.

The only time it doesn't is against high AC targets, though often with ship/party buffs your to-hit can get pretty high anyway. Auto-crit mobs obviously favour Wind a lot more than they favour Sun.

So really, Wind is best in any non-Epic, against any stunned/held mob, and against Epic Velah.

And Sun is better in the eADQ2 fight, and against the djinns in eVON6.

I would suggest building for the content you run most often, since neither is the "max DPS" stance anymore.


The other thing to consider is that the strikes you get from the Wind stance work against devils, while the strikes from Sun do not. This can be an issue if you're tight on APs (and thus can't get the Void line), as a Horc Ninja Spy would be.

Though, I also agree with this argument.





That's what I remember reading as well.

This is a good summary, thank you.
I never noticed that Epic Lailat had such a high AC, makes me wonder how I owned her so well with the gimp toons I've taken in there.
Hard to think about how the +2 attack from fire stance will factor in to these circumstances when the later attacks in the attack chain will be hitting on a 2+ and it only being the earlier attacks which suffer a chance to miss.
Some conclusions after reading:
1. Light monks should be in Wind Stance (not having Ki pressures that dark monks do)
2. Dark monks should be in Wind Stance (not having the AP to cover fire)
3. Wind Stance is more DPS in a majority of situations
4. Fire Stance is a good option for a utility stance for those situations that require it (same as I would describe earth and water)

Is this taking some of the comments out of context a little bit? lol

Other reasons to be in wind stance:
1. I spend a significant amount of time in a given quest unhasted (beholders, lag, poor organisation)
2. +1 DC to stunning fist, +2 to reflex save (most common save)
3. Increases ToD DPS (from doublestrike, true for other strikes too)

All this said, you should play your character how you like, no one is going to tell you not to play a flavour build

[AylinIsAwesome]

This is a good summary, thank you.
I never noticed that Epic Lailat had such a high AC, makes me wonder how I owned her so well with the gimp toons I've taken in there.

I haven't noticed a large trouble hitting her either, though I don't think I hit her on a 2 on my first attack in a chain.

I know there are several Sun monks who claim they can though.

Hard to think about how the +2 attack from fire stance will factor in to these circumstances when the later attacks in the attack chain will be hitting on a 2+ and it only being the earlier attacks which suffer a chance to miss.

I've been thinking about doing a more thorough DPS breakdown between the two, though I've been a bit too lazy. If it's requested I could though...I just don't wanna spend time doing something nobody will even care to read.

Is this taking some of the comments out of context a little bit? lol

To be honest, I like prefer Wind stance myself, so there is the danger of me subconsciously presenting Wind stance to be better than Sun, so take everything I've said with that consideration.

[sephiroth1084]

I've been thinking about doing a more thorough DPS breakdown between the two, though I've been a bit too lazy. If it's requested I could though...I just don't wanna spend time doing something nobody will even care to read.

I always appreciate comprehensive DPS comparisons and breakdowns! And in this particular case, I'm considering going Fire during my monk's next life, so this is especially relevant. May go Fire anyway, if I decide to do two TRs, just so I have some person experience on both sides. I did that with my tank, going fighter for his middle life, and am glad I did, if only to have a better sense of what I like better on my tanks and for discussing fighter- and paladin-based tanking.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I always appreciate comprehensive DPS comparisons and breakdowns! And in this particular case, I'm considering going Fire during my monk's next life, so this is especially relevant. May go Fire anyway, if I decide to do two TRs, just so I have some person experience on both sides. I did that with my tank, going fighter for his middle life, and am glad I did, if only to have a better sense of what I like better on my tanks and for discussing fighter- and paladin-based tanking.

Ok, I'll start workin' on it.

If someone could give me links to some Sun and Wind Monk builds (both Light and Dark), that would help a lot.

[Fafnir]

I have been both wind and fire in different past lives. This life I am going wind again as a half elf. I suspect fire is better for the to hit in epics and ki management however can supplement to hit with gear - my half orc life last time I thought was quite powerful and versatile (can tank).

The great news is that for the three most common races outside of halfling, you can go either and just LR to change. For halfling, I suspect you are probably a dex/finesse build already so Wind matches.

So play it as you like it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Ok, I'll start workin' on it.

If someone could give me links to some Sun and Wind Monk builds (both Light and Dark), that would help a lot.

The build comparisons I would like to see are:
Half-orc wisdom based light side monk (epic CC w/ void IV)
Dark pure strength based (w/ void IV if possible)
Light pure strength based (w/ void IV if possible)
Half-elf (rogue dilettante) or Half-orc would be the max DPS race choices.

How do you start it?
111.3 mainhand attacks/minute
89.04 offhand attacks/minute
11.3 mainhand attacks from doublestrike

.: 211.47 attacks all up/minute for wind stance
=10.5735 misses
=21.147 criticals, 148.029 Ki (with max elegant crane)
=179.7495 normal hits, 179.749 Ki, add 200.8965 Ki extra from Oremi
.: 327.778 or 528.6745 Ki with Oremi's

.:200.34 attacks all up/minute for fire stance
=10.017 misses
=20.034 criticals, 160.272 Ki
=170.289 normal hits, 340.578 Ki
.: 500.85 Ki

How much Ki do you gain passively from Monk Capstone every minute?
In the scenarios where stunning fist/Kukan Do, Dismissing Strike, Tomb of Jade are applicable there is free Ki from stunned enemies.
We will need some maximised/optimal builds with AP layouts.

[Anthios888]

What's the point of doing the DPS calcs with a WIS build versus a STR or DEX build? How do you factor in the nofail stuns?

DPS calcs on monks are just the tip of the iceberg -- even moreso than any other class.

[sephiroth1084]

What's the point of doing the DPS calcs with a WIS build versus a STR or DEX build? How do you factor in the nofail stuns?

DPS calcs on monks are just the tip of the iceberg -- even moreso than any other class.

I wouldn't bother with Wis-based. They're lower DPS one way or another, and are fairly unnecessary.

Actually comparing all the different builds does seem like a tremendous task.

Maybe dark and light versions of each of:
Halfling Dex based (start 16 + lvls) & Guile III (can't see fitting Guile IV)
Halfling Str based (start 15 + lvls) & Guile III
Horc Str based (start 18 + lvls)
Helf Dex/Str based
all with PA, IC and GTWF

The issue, I guess, is that, unlike most other classes, which have only a couple major variables, usually, monks have Light/Dark, Wind/Fire and serious consideration for Str/Dex. Seems daunting, which is why I'm not doing it.

[Lord_WC]

Just some undiscussed points which came to my mind:

1) With jidz tetka fire stance gives +25% heal amp which is far more useful than +10 jump
2) Going wind+crane has some problems. First if you would pick up animal paths, you miss out on 20hp. Ki generated is much less than fire, and honestly I have problems with ki gen even in fire stance on a dark monk (spamming tod, v4, earth3 and one elemental strike which preferrably hits purple numbers). Third solving ki generation from ap via crane prohibits you from taking ninja spy, tod and void4.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just some undiscussed points which came to my mind:

1) With jidz tetka fire stance gives +25% heal amp which is far more useful than +10 jump
2) Going wind+crane has some problems. First if you would pick up animal paths, you miss out on 20hp. Ki generated is much less than fire, and honestly I have problems with ki gen even in fire stance on a dark monk (spamming tod, v4, earth3 and one elemental strike which preferrably hits purple numbers). Third solving ki generation from ap via crane prohibits you from taking ninja spy, tod and void4.

What is the AP layout to which you refer?

[Lord_WC]

What is the AP layout to which you refer?

Yeah, I should have phrased a bit differently since the ap on those three is about 60. So read: If you spend 7 more ap to generate ki, you would have to cut in hp/recovery/DC.

[Anthios888]

Just some undiscussed points which came to my mind:

2) Going wind+crane has some problems. First if you would pick up animal paths, you miss out on 20hp. Ki generated is much less than fire, and honestly I have problems with ki gen even in fire stance on a dark monk (spamming tod, v4, earth3 and one elemental strike which preferrably hits purple numbers). Third solving ki generation from ap via crane prohibits you from taking ninja spy, tod and void4.

Ummm. Animal path II is required for Ninja Spy. How is taking Crane II preventing you from taking ninja spy, tod, and void 4? At most, this is comparing ki generation to 10 HP (Way of the Patient Tortoise II).

I have a dark monk with touch of death, gm wind, void 4, earth 3, crane II, and ninja spy II who is very confused by your post.

[Lord_WC]

Ummm. Animal path II is required for Ninja Spy. How is taking Crane II preventing you from taking ninja spy, tod, and void 4? At most, this is comparing ki generation to 10 HP (Way of the Patient Tortoise II).

I have a dark monk with touch of death, gm wind, void 4, earth 3, crane II, and ninja spy II who is very confused by your post.

And you have a tod, gm fire, void 4, earth 3, tort II, ninja spy II who is very confused about your ki gen:

19-20 crits, attack rate at 200,34:
20,034 misses
160,272 normal for 1 ki -> 160,272
20,034 crits for 4 ki -> 80,132

For a total of 240,404 ki per minute.

Tod takes away 50*4.

So you have a whole 40,404 ki per minute to hit void4, earth 3. Which means instead of 20 elemental/void strikes per min you put out 2-3.

That cuts in your dps a lot. With GM fire you would have generated 460,764 ki in a minute. You have 220 less ki in a minute which translates that you deal 300-400 damage less in a minute from strikes (multiply it by 2,5-3 if you tend to hit strikes on the 3rd attack animation).

ps replace , with . if you come from a mathematically different country.

[Anthios888]

And you have a tod, gm fire, void 4, earth 3, tort II, ninja spy II who is very confused about your ki gen:

19-20 crits, attack rate at 200,34:
20,034 misses
160,272 normal for 1 ki -> 160,272
20,034 crits for 4 ki -> 80,132

For a total of 240,404 ki per minute.

Tod takes away 50*4.

So you have a whole 40,404 ki per minute to hit void4, earth 3. Which means instead of 20 elemental/void strikes per min you put out 2-3.

That cuts in your dps a lot.

ps replace , with . if you come from a mathematically different country.

I stun everything with a DC 46 stun. I use Oremi's necklace in boss fights if I am concerned about needing ki to spam unbalancing strike and damage attacks. This setup works great for me.

I think we forget that only a minute or two of most quests are spent killing red named monsters. The rest is getting there.

Try it some time. I have yet to encounter this chronic lack of ki and DPS that everyone is so concerned about. Monks can refuel by pummeling any trash mob and gaining like 200 ki within seconds.

[Lord_WC]

I stun everything with a DC 46 stun. I use Oremi's necklace in boss fights if I am concerned about needing ki to spam unbalancing strike and damage attacks. This setup works great for me.

I think we forget that only a minute or two of most quests are spent killing red named monsters. The rest is getting there.

Try it some time. I have yet to encounter this chronic lack of ki and DPS that everyone is so concerned about. Monks can refuel by pummeling any trash mob and gaining like 200 ki within seconds.

You are talking about unfortified, crittable, stunnable mobs. Usually those are not the one which require dps.

Dps is needed when the mobs cant be CC-d properly or at all.

That was the point the OP was about: you have to put on oremi, and loose +2/+2 more in the process just to try to catch up to fire stance.

Btw you probably would be better off with switching to fire stance than put on oremi...