Fire vs Wind Stance

[wax_on_wax_off]

So I read often that monks are choosing fire stance at level 20 these days instead of wind stance. Something seems wrong about this as I always just assumed that +10% double strike would be better than +2 damage but haven't seen any compelling evidence either way.

I've read some other threads about this topic but they don't seem very conclusive.

So, 111.3 is the amount of attacks a level 20 monk has per minute. So, with 80% offhand proc fire stance 4 will add ...

111.3*1.8*2/60 = 6.678 DPS

So, to know if wind stance is going to add more DPS than that will be dependent on base damage but it should be possible to work out the break point.

Big question: can you get doublestrike from offhand strikes? I think documentation suggests not but I've heard of enough instances of quad ToD's to suggest otherwise (0.8% of all ToD attempts will be quad strikes if it is the case).

Assuming that you can have quad strikes ...

111.3*1.8*1.1/60=3.6729 attacks/second compared to 3.339 for no doublestrike.

So, if 0.3339 attacks does more than 6.678 damage then wind stance is better, otherwise fire stance is better.

So, if I'm reading that right. If you do more than 20 damage/hit then you're better off in wind stance. Or is there something wrong here?

(if doublestrikes only occur on mainhand attacks)
(111.3*1.8+111.3*.1)/60=3.5254 if you only get doublestrike on mainhand strikes so .1864 difference in attacks. In that event if you do 36 or more damage with an attack you are better off in wind stance.

Obviously none of this takes into account Ki generation (crane philosphy + oremi set should be fine surely?). It also doesn't take into account AP and accessibility but the 18 dex needed for wind stance IV is only 1 more than the dex needed for ITWF. Also, storm strike IV is one of the best DPS strikes due to not many things being resistant.

This also doesn't take into account epic content in which the +2 attack may be important but 95% of fighting should be auto hitting auto held targets.

[sephiroth1084]

You can't doublestrike off-hand attacks.

As far as I can tell, the reasoning behind the decision for most monks to go Fire Stance comes down to two things: to-hit and ToD sets.

If you go Fire Stance you're getting +2 on your attack rolls, which is significant in epics, and you don't need Oremi's, so you can use Shintao without concern for Ki and gain a further +2 damage and +2 to-hit.

Wind Stance is only more DPS if you're hitting at the same rate as Fire. If you're Dex-based, and using Finesse, then the issue is a bit more muddled, I think, since you're getting the same +2 attack from stance, though you're losing the +1 to-hit from Rage and +1 to +2 to-hit from Madstone.

Str-based Fire Stance simply gets more to-hit.

[Anthios888]

I say wind. And I'm cool. That should be enough.

[NaturalHazard]

.

This also doesn't take into account epic content in which the +2 attack may be important but 95% of fighting should be auto hitting auto held targets.

Boss fights can be very important in some epics?

[sephiroth1084]

I say wind. And I'm cool. That should be enough.

I tend to prefer Wind as well, though I'll have a better point of comparison after I TR my monk and try Fire, but the advantages to Fire are tough to ignore. For one, I know that I'd like to get the Shintao set, but no idea how I'd support it on a Wind-monk.

[NeutronStar]

I tend to prefer Wind as well, though I'll have a better point of comparison after I TR my monk and try Fire, but the advantages to Fire are tough to ignore. For one, I know that I'd like to get the Shintao set, but no idea how I'd support it on a Wind-monk.

Well, as a former Wind Stance Monk, I can tell you (at least for me anyway) Ki generation wasn't much of a problem even when using the Shintao set.

[wax_on_wax_off]

You can't doublestrike off-hand attacks.

As far as I can tell, the reasoning behind the decision for most monks to go Fire Stance comes down to two things: to-hit and ToD sets.

If you go Fire Stance you're getting +2 on your attack rolls, which is significant in epics, and you don't need Oremi's, so you can use Shintao without concern for Ki and gain a further +2 damage and +2 to-hit.

Wind Stance is only more DPS if you're hitting at the same rate as Fire. If you're Dex-based, and using Finesse, then the issue is a bit more muddled, I think, since you're getting the same +2 attack from stance, though you're losing the +1 to-hit from Rage and +1 to +2 to-hit from Madstone.

Str-based Fire Stance simply gets more to-hit.

Ok but damage wise, once you go over 36 damage then you are better off in wind stance. Considering monks can hit for double or triple that then the advantage will stack up very quickly.

In the content in which you'll have the hardest time hitting - epic - Oremi's set isn't so bad as there is a lot less fire resistance (compared to regular devil heavy endgame). However, Shintao can still work due to the majority of enemies being auto-critted in epic. It seems the fire stance's advantage would be relegated to epic bosses with high AC - and that's it.

How is it that people get quad ToD's if offhand doublestrikes aren't possible?

Another difference is the downside of the stance; losing 20 HP for -2 con affects DPS less than -1 to stunning fist DC from -2 wisdom. In some instances earth stance IV would be necessary for the extra HP which is fine. I think the best AP set up for a monk would surely be Void IV, Fire III, Wind IV, Earth IV, Water III to give the best DPS strikes in the game.

[sephiroth1084]

Well, as a former Wind Stance Monk, I can tell you (at least for me anyway) Ki generation wasn't much of a problem even when using the Shintao set.

Light or Dark? I find that, even with Oremi's, I'm falling behind on Ki much of the time if I'm trying to get ToD out every 15 seconds and keep strikes going. Normally I'm cycling either Earth IV, Earth III, Fists, Finisher, or Earth IV, Earth III, Wind IV, and even with the 3-strike cycle I'm often having to wait a beat or two for 50 ki to build up. How Fire IV gains more Ki than Wind IV + Oremi + Crane II or III (can't recall which I have), I'm not really sure, but that seems to be the prevailing sentiment.

Certainly Fire IV + Oremi's = massive Ki gen.

Ok but damage wise, once you go over 36 damage then you are better off in wind stance. Considering monks can hit for double or triple that then the advantage will stack up very quickly.

I never said that Fire was more DPS than Wind. Wind is definitely more DPS...if you're hitting.

In the content in which you'll have the hardest time hitting - epic - Oremi's set isn't so bad as there is a lot less fire resistance (compared to regular devil heavy endgame). However, Shintao can still work due to the majority of enemies being auto-critted in epic. It seems the fire stance's advantage would be relegated to epic bosses with high AC - and that's it.

There are more than just bosses with high AC in epics, and not everything will be held all of the time. But I agree that Oremi's in epics can be quite good.

How is it that people get quad ToD's if offhand doublestrikes aren't possible?

Bug. If people are still getting them, it could be (I imagine) from one of 3 possibilities:
-the devs never fully fixed whatever was causing the 4 or 5 procs before
-doublestrike is incorrectly applying to off-hand attacks (devs have stated this shouldn't occur)
-multiple sources of double strike are not stacking their percentages together, but are instead providing separate chances, which would mean that a Wind monk under Inspire Recklessness may be getting two separate instances of doublestrike that apply separately (which would be a bug)

Another difference is the downside of the stance; losing 20 HP for -2 con affects DPS less than -1 to stunning fist DC from -2 wisdom. In some instances earth stance IV would be necessary for the extra HP which is fine. I think the best AP set up for a monk would surely be Void IV, Fire III, Wind IV, Earth IV, Water III to give the best DPS strikes in the game.

I agree that the penalty to Stunning Fist is more significant than -20 HP.

You're not fitting all of that on a dark monk. Light monk is more likely, but a light monk probably doesn't need quite as much Ki either.

[baddax]

What is the stated off hand proc rate for wind stance? ie how is it supposed to work. Been away for a while and last time i played my monk it was an actual attack speed boost.

[sephiroth1084]

What is the stated off hand proc rate for wind stance? ie how is it supposed to work. Been away for a while and last time i played my monk it was an actual attack speed boost.

Wind Stance now has 2 separate effects: an attack speed boost that does not stack with Haste, and a doublestrike chance that will occasionally trigger an extra main-hand attack.

[baddax]

ok but what is the double strike chance?

[Attropos]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason people are getting triple or quad ToDs are because when you doublestrike, you hit with your main hand, which has a chance of double striking again. Therefore there would be a 1% chance of a triple strike and a 0.1% of a quad. Small chances, but within a range that people would see them.

[Feithlin]

ok but what is the double strike chance?

2.5% disciple of breezes, 5% adept of wind, 7.5% master of thunder and 10% GM of storms.

[Anthios888]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason people are getting triple or quad ToDs are because when you doublestrike, you hit with your main hand, which has a chance of double striking again. Therefore there would be a 1% chance of a triple strike and a 0.1% of a quad. Small chances, but within a range that people would see them.

Since the main hand has a 10% doublestrike, it is more like 10% of the time. (still - 10% of that one ability alone is 3.3 dps...).

[t0r012]

It is rare but I have seen quad elemental strikes.

now on to main question, fire vs wind. It all comes down to ki and if you have enough to use to keep all your best strike rolling off of cool down. Only time fire really shines is when hasted on a dark monk dropping ToDs every 15 seconds along with the other big boys earth and or voids .
Since so much extra damage comes from the adder strikes (ToD in particular) that having the ki to drop them surpasses the wind doublestrike.

Occasionally when the to-hit matters and your a str based build fire will help but other than those two situations wind is better.

If you are ever out of haste for more than a couple seconds wind starts catching up fast. If you can generate enough ki to throw all your best strikes then wind is superior as extra ki is wasted ki.

Basically if fire lets you keep throwing your ToD and upper tier earth strikes as soon as they come off of cooldown when wind wouldn't then fire is superior. Other than that wind is better barring to-hit issues for no finesse.

If you don't have ToD (ala` light path) then wind is going to win as not needing 50 ki every 50 seconds for ToD there is no need to generate the extra ki fire provides as it will just be wasted.

[Attropos]

Since the main hand has a 10% doublestrike, it is more like 10% of the time. (still - 10% of that one ability alone is 3.3 dps...).

I think you misread me :P

I meant that there is a 10% chance to doublestrike the ToD (which I left out, because we were talking about just triple and quad ToDs), a 1% to triple, and a 0.1% to quad.

The reason is that if we have a 10% chance to get a double strike, if we get the double strike, we have another 10% to get one, and if we somehow get the triple strike, we have another 10% to get a quad..

0.1*0.1=0.01
and
0.1*0.1*0.1=0.001

[sephiroth1084]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason people are getting triple or quad ToDs are because when you doublestrike, you hit with your main hand, which has a chance of double striking again. Therefore there would be a 1% chance of a triple strike and a 0.1% of a quad. Small chances, but within a range that people would see them.

From what I've read from the devs, you shouldn't be able to doublestrike on a doublestrike.

[Anthios888]

I think you misread me :P

I meant that there is a 10% chance to doublestrike the ToD (which I left out, because we were talking about just triple and quad ToDs), a 1% to triple, and a 0.1% to quad.

The reason is that if we have a 10% chance to get a double strike, if we get the double strike, we have another 10% to get one, and if we somehow get the triple strike, we have another 10% to get a quad..

0.1*0.1=0.01
and
0.1*0.1*0.1=0.001

Perhaps you are missing the 80% chance to get a touch of death proc on offhand attack anyway because of greater two weapon fighting? Each is going to work independently)

Every time you hit a Ki strike, stun, or another ability, you have a:

100% chance - mainhand
10% chance - mainhand doublestrike (10% from wind)
80% chance - offhand
X (cheese factor - this is real... sometimes you are still seeing more ToDs than is mathematically possible!)

I've hit curse of the void and charmed as many as 2-3 different enemies before =)

[t0r012]

Perhaps you are missing the 80% chance to get a touch of death proc on offhand attack anyway because of greater two weapon fighting? Each is going to work independently)

Every time you hit a Ki strike, stun, or another ability, you have a:


I've hit curse of the void and charmed as many as 2-3 different enemies before =)

thats a different ball of wax hitting multiple enemies than getting double/triple strikes on one target. some attack animations are "hooks" that will hit a couple of enemies around you if all the stars have aligned properly. I've dismissed/QPed/FoL many dudes in one swing.

but like I said I have seen the very,very rare quad strike on single mobs before since the update when they "fixed" it. much, much more rare now than it was before the "fix" but still happens every once in a blue moon.

[sephiroth1084]

thats a different ball of wax hitting multiple enemies than getting double/triple strikes on one target. some attack animations are "hooks" that will hit a couple of enemies around you if all the stars have aligned properly. I've dismissed/QPed/FoL many dudes in one swing.

but like I said I have seen the very,very rare quad strike on single mobs before since the update when they "fixed" it. much, much more rare now than it was before the "fix" but still happens every once in a blue moon.

You mean Turbine didn't actually fix something they claimed to have fixed?! IMPOSSIBLE!