Fire vs Wind Stance

[wax_on_wax_off]

So I read often that monks are choosing fire stance at level 20 these days instead of wind stance. Something seems wrong about this as I always just assumed that +10% double strike would be better than +2 damage but haven't seen any compelling evidence either way.

I've read some other threads about this topic but they don't seem very conclusive.

So, 111.3 is the amount of attacks a level 20 monk has per minute. So, with 80% offhand proc fire stance 4 will add ...

111.3*1.8*2/60 = 6.678 DPS

So, to know if wind stance is going to add more DPS than that will be dependent on base damage but it should be possible to work out the break point.

Big question: can you get doublestrike from offhand strikes? I think documentation suggests not but I've heard of enough instances of quad ToD's to suggest otherwise (0.8% of all ToD attempts will be quad strikes if it is the case).

Assuming that you can have quad strikes ...

111.3*1.8*1.1/60=3.6729 attacks/second compared to 3.339 for no doublestrike.

So, if 0.3339 attacks does more than 6.678 damage then wind stance is better, otherwise fire stance is better.

So, if I'm reading that right. If you do more than 20 damage/hit then you're better off in wind stance. Or is there something wrong here?

(if doublestrikes only occur on mainhand attacks)
(111.3*1.8+111.3*.1)/60=3.5254 if you only get doublestrike on mainhand strikes so .1864 difference in attacks. In that event if you do 36 or more damage with an attack you are better off in wind stance.

Obviously none of this takes into account Ki generation (crane philosphy + oremi set should be fine surely?). It also doesn't take into account AP and accessibility but the 18 dex needed for wind stance IV is only 1 more than the dex needed for ITWF. Also, storm strike IV is one of the best DPS strikes due to not many things being resistant.

This also doesn't take into account epic content in which the +2 attack may be important but 95% of fighting should be auto hitting auto held targets.

[sephiroth1084]

You can't doublestrike off-hand attacks.

As far as I can tell, the reasoning behind the decision for most monks to go Fire Stance comes down to two things: to-hit and ToD sets.

If you go Fire Stance you're getting +2 on your attack rolls, which is significant in epics, and you don't need Oremi's, so you can use Shintao without concern for Ki and gain a further +2 damage and +2 to-hit.

Wind Stance is only more DPS if you're hitting at the same rate as Fire. If you're Dex-based, and using Finesse, then the issue is a bit more muddled, I think, since you're getting the same +2 attack from stance, though you're losing the +1 to-hit from Rage and +1 to +2 to-hit from Madstone.

Str-based Fire Stance simply gets more to-hit.

[Anthios888]

I say wind. And I'm cool. That should be enough.

[sephiroth1084]

I say wind. And I'm cool. That should be enough.

I tend to prefer Wind as well, though I'll have a better point of comparison after I TR my monk and try Fire, but the advantages to Fire are tough to ignore. For one, I know that I'd like to get the Shintao set, but no idea how I'd support it on a Wind-monk.

[NeutronStar]

I tend to prefer Wind as well, though I'll have a better point of comparison after I TR my monk and try Fire, but the advantages to Fire are tough to ignore. For one, I know that I'd like to get the Shintao set, but no idea how I'd support it on a Wind-monk.

Well, as a former Wind Stance Monk, I can tell you (at least for me anyway) Ki generation wasn't much of a problem even when using the Shintao set.

[wax_on_wax_off]

You can't doublestrike off-hand attacks.

As far as I can tell, the reasoning behind the decision for most monks to go Fire Stance comes down to two things: to-hit and ToD sets.

If you go Fire Stance you're getting +2 on your attack rolls, which is significant in epics, and you don't need Oremi's, so you can use Shintao without concern for Ki and gain a further +2 damage and +2 to-hit.

Wind Stance is only more DPS if you're hitting at the same rate as Fire. If you're Dex-based, and using Finesse, then the issue is a bit more muddled, I think, since you're getting the same +2 attack from stance, though you're losing the +1 to-hit from Rage and +1 to +2 to-hit from Madstone.

Str-based Fire Stance simply gets more to-hit.

Ok but damage wise, once you go over 36 damage then you are better off in wind stance. Considering monks can hit for double or triple that then the advantage will stack up very quickly.

In the content in which you'll have the hardest time hitting - epic - Oremi's set isn't so bad as there is a lot less fire resistance (compared to regular devil heavy endgame). However, Shintao can still work due to the majority of enemies being auto-critted in epic. It seems the fire stance's advantage would be relegated to epic bosses with high AC - and that's it.

How is it that people get quad ToD's if offhand doublestrikes aren't possible?

Another difference is the downside of the stance; losing 20 HP for -2 con affects DPS less than -1 to stunning fist DC from -2 wisdom. In some instances earth stance IV would be necessary for the extra HP which is fine. I think the best AP set up for a monk would surely be Void IV, Fire III, Wind IV, Earth IV, Water III to give the best DPS strikes in the game.

[sephiroth1084]

Well, as a former Wind Stance Monk, I can tell you (at least for me anyway) Ki generation wasn't much of a problem even when using the Shintao set.

Light or Dark? I find that, even with Oremi's, I'm falling behind on Ki much of the time if I'm trying to get ToD out every 15 seconds and keep strikes going. Normally I'm cycling either Earth IV, Earth III, Fists, Finisher, or Earth IV, Earth III, Wind IV, and even with the 3-strike cycle I'm often having to wait a beat or two for 50 ki to build up. How Fire IV gains more Ki than Wind IV + Oremi + Crane II or III (can't recall which I have), I'm not really sure, but that seems to be the prevailing sentiment.

Certainly Fire IV + Oremi's = massive Ki gen.

Ok but damage wise, once you go over 36 damage then you are better off in wind stance. Considering monks can hit for double or triple that then the advantage will stack up very quickly.

I never said that Fire was more DPS than Wind. Wind is definitely more DPS...if you're hitting.

In the content in which you'll have the hardest time hitting - epic - Oremi's set isn't so bad as there is a lot less fire resistance (compared to regular devil heavy endgame). However, Shintao can still work due to the majority of enemies being auto-critted in epic. It seems the fire stance's advantage would be relegated to epic bosses with high AC - and that's it.

There are more than just bosses with high AC in epics, and not everything will be held all of the time. But I agree that Oremi's in epics can be quite good.

How is it that people get quad ToD's if offhand doublestrikes aren't possible?

Bug. If people are still getting them, it could be (I imagine) from one of 3 possibilities:
-the devs never fully fixed whatever was causing the 4 or 5 procs before
-doublestrike is incorrectly applying to off-hand attacks (devs have stated this shouldn't occur)
-multiple sources of double strike are not stacking their percentages together, but are instead providing separate chances, which would mean that a Wind monk under Inspire Recklessness may be getting two separate instances of doublestrike that apply separately (which would be a bug)

Another difference is the downside of the stance; losing 20 HP for -2 con affects DPS less than -1 to stunning fist DC from -2 wisdom. In some instances earth stance IV would be necessary for the extra HP which is fine. I think the best AP set up for a monk would surely be Void IV, Fire III, Wind IV, Earth IV, Water III to give the best DPS strikes in the game.

I agree that the penalty to Stunning Fist is more significant than -20 HP.

You're not fitting all of that on a dark monk. Light monk is more likely, but a light monk probably doesn't need quite as much Ki either.

[baddax]

What is the stated off hand proc rate for wind stance? ie how is it supposed to work. Been away for a while and last time i played my monk it was an actual attack speed boost.

[sephiroth1084]

What is the stated off hand proc rate for wind stance? ie how is it supposed to work. Been away for a while and last time i played my monk it was an actual attack speed boost.

Wind Stance now has 2 separate effects: an attack speed boost that does not stack with Haste, and a doublestrike chance that will occasionally trigger an extra main-hand attack.

[NaturalHazard]

.

This also doesn't take into account epic content in which the +2 attack may be important but 95% of fighting should be auto hitting auto held targets.

Boss fights can be very important in some epics?

[Kinerd]

So, 111.3 is the amount of attacks a level 20 monk has per minute. So, with 80% offhand proc fire stance 4 will add ...

111.3*1.8*2/60 = 6.678 DPS

This is not quite right. +2 damage for an Improved Critical unarmed attack will be +(1 * 0 + 17 * 2 + 2 * 4) / 20 = +2.1. It doesn't matter much here numerically, but it's good to know if you ever start doing (for instance) Barbarian calculations.

Well, as a former Wind Stance Monk, I can tell you (at least for me anyway) Ki generation wasn't much of a problem even when using the Shintao set.

Indeed. Even with no Crane and no Oremi, a monk generates 55.5 ki per 15 seconds if hitting on a 2. (Each rank of Crane is worth about 5.3 more ki per 15 seconds.) After Touch of Death, the benefits of more ki strikes are not very remarkable, and double-strike becomes more important. Generating enough ki to keep an elemental strike IV up is only about 12 DPS, so for most level 20 monks a 10% double-strike chance (1.9/1.8 total modifier multiplied by haste) will be way more important.

[Anthios888]

Even with no Crane and no Oremi, a monk generates 55.5 ki per 15 seconds if hitting on a 2. (Each rank of Crane is worth about 5.3 more ki per 15 seconds.) After Touch of Death, the benefits of more ki strikes are not very remarkable, and double-strike becomes more important. Generating enough ki to keep an elemental strike IV up is only about 12 DPS, so for most level 20 monks a 10% double-strike chance (1.9/1.8 total modifier multiplied by haste) will be way more important.

Exactly. And one stun gets you enough ki to go for ages. Maybe it's because my monk has like 40 wisdom, but I have never understood the ki generation arguments. I guess I should say that 80% of what I run is epic 6-man content. Keeping up unbalancing strike, void III and IV, stunning fist, dark punch, curse of the void, touch of despair, and touch of death are always priorities before Earth III / IV. But even with all of that going on... I rarely have to do more than just pay attention to cooldowns and manage my rotation to have enough for ToD every cooldown. You generate sooo much ki on autocrit, especially if you are running crane.

Someone should also note that sun stance gives -2 wis, so -1 DC on stunning fist.

The person who said it right was the one who said, "play what you feel like." Monks may be the most elusive and variable class in DDO (and also the most rewarding!). Do whatever floats your boat. I'm Rockan. I like to attack fast and stun things. I have had a monk problem for over a year now.

[Dark-Star]

This is not quite right. +2 damage for an Improved Critical unarmed attack will be +(1 * 0 + 17 * 2 + 2 * 4) / 20 = +2.1. It doesn't matter much here numerically, but it's good to know if you ever start doing (for instance) Barbarian calculations.Indeed. Even with no Crane and no Oremi, a monk generates 55.5 ki per 15 seconds if hitting on a 2. (Each rank of Crane is worth about 5.3 more ki per 15 seconds.) After Touch of Death, the benefits of more ki strikes are not very remarkable, and double-strike becomes more important. Generating enough ki to keep an elemental strike IV up is only about 12 DPS, so for most level 20 monks a 10% double-strike chance (1.9/1.8 total modifier multiplied by haste) will be way more important.

The Ki nerd has spoken. (Couldn't help myself!).

Wind + Oremi's neck + high stun DC = able to cycle four strikes and ToD 95% of the time.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Just some undiscussed points which came to my mind:

1) With jidz tetka fire stance gives +25% heal amp which is far more useful than +10 jump

And...wearing Jidz'Tet-Ka isn't something my Monks do.

Here's why:

Epic Bracers of the Claw + Epic Gloves of the Claw

+30% Healing Amp with +4 damage beats +25% Healing Amp any day.

[Undone1]

And...wearing Jidz'Tet-Ka isn't something my Monks do.

Here's why:

Epic Bracers of the Claw + Epic Gloves of the Claw

+30% Healing Amp with +4 damage beats +25% Healing Amp any day.

and 20% insite loses out on horoth unless you have ~700 hps, besides epic gem exists so its only competition is actually the +20 hps heavy fort bracers.

I am interested in the amp from both and can take both, so why not. Besides the new Seeker 6 or sneak 5 hat will change the gear setups of many people

[AylinIsAwesome]

and 20% insite loses out on horoth unless you have ~700 hps,

Wrong. A DPS tank wearing the same gloves and bracers, who also any other threat modification items on will still have a higher incite than you.

besides epic gem exists so its only competition is actually the +20 hps heavy fort bracers.

Epic Gem of Many Facets doesn't have Seeker 6/8 on it.

I am interested in the amp from both and can take both, so why not. Besides the new Seeker 6 or sneak 5 hat will change the gear setups of many people

I might not have heard of these new items, but a Google search didn't bring up anything.

However, depending on the item, it might just make wearing Litany of the Dead in the trinket slot better than wearing the Bloodstone.

Still no reason to wear the Jidz'Tet-Ka.

[sephiroth1084]

and 20% insite loses out on horoth unless you have ~700 hps, besides epic gem exists so its only competition is actually the +20 hps heavy fort bracers.

I am interested in the amp from both and can take both, so why not. Besides the new Seeker 6 or sneak 5 hat will change the gear setups of many people

If you aren't tanking, why do you need the extra 25% amp?

[DarkFlash]

And...wearing Jidz'Tet-Ka isn't something my Monks do.

Here's why:

Epic Bracers of the Claw + Epic Gloves of the Claw

+30% Healing Amp with +4 damage beats +25% Healing Amp any day.

That post made me a very sad shintao

EDIT: Meaning that its completely insane, as you can use both 25% and 30% amps.

[AylinIsAwesome]

That post made me a very sad shintao

EDIT: Meaning that its completely insane, as you can use both 25% and 30% amps.

Solar Phoenix builds have been doing that for a while now.