Fire vs Wind Stance

[DarkFlash]

The new u8.1 items will change my gears completely.
If you have never heard of "lamannia discussion forums", your Search-Fu is not strong enough to make viable arguments :P .

[Undone1]

I am guessing seeker 6 goes on the hat, you wear epic gem + gloves + ravens sight and epic bracers of the hunter for sneak 5. At least with the new hat

[AylinIsAwesome]

The new u8.1 items will change my gears completely.
If you have never heard of "lamannia discussion forums", your Search-Fu is not strong enough to make viable arguments :P .

Actually...no.


Anyway.the gloves look cool, but 1d4 < 4, and the Sneak Attack bonus is less than that from Tharne's. Looks interesting to be sure, though the benefits are significantly less than those from the Epic Claw set.


The hat has only a few good enhancements on it for Monks: Seeker +6 and Sneak Attack +5. The rest either give no benefit to a Monk, or are something like +5 Natural Armour. Using the hat for Sneak Attack ends up giving you less than what you would get from wearing Tharne's (lack of True Seeing), so Tharne's are still better. The Seeker +6 is more up in the air, though whether or not you wear it would probably depend on getting whatever was on your hat previously onto another slot, letting you wear Litany of the Dead (from a max-DPS perspective).

I don't really see either of these as being better than gear that's already present.

[Lord_WC]

Wrong. A DPS tank wearing the same gloves and bracers, who also any other threat modification items on will still have a higher incite than you.

Except if you put in a lucky 2k tod and horoth turns around. Aggro is not only overall damage dealt but amount dealt in a short time frame (<10s). If the hate tank is only moderately good I pull off aggro from him after a tod if I'm not careful. Wearing incite to deal more hate is suicidal on a halfway decent dark monk. Not mentioning you pull off aggro on unheld trash and then bye bye 3d6+8 SA damage.

Generating enough ki to keep an elemental strike IV up is only about 12 DPS, so for most level 20 monks a 10% double-strike chance (1.9/1.8 total modifier multiplied by haste) will be way more important.

What you miss is that 3 ki strikes can be cycled to proc 2-2-3, so we are talking about 84 damage during a cycle. Just from ki (and not counting crit earths) this amounts to 700-800 damage/min. Depending on your skill wind will get better only if you deal 80-100-ish damage per attack.

More about Sun than the bracers, though Wind isn't really behind in terms of Ki generation. It's actually slightly ahead, due to doublestrike.

Care to back it up with numbers? I find this hard to believe when sun is ahead with 1 ki/hit. Mainhand 10% doublestrike proc is 5,5% general attack number increase. So yeah, if you generate more than 18 ki on a hit with wind and 19 with fire, doublestrike pulls ahead.

[DarkFlash]

Actually...no.


Anyway.the gloves look cool, but 1d4 < 4, and the Sneak Attack bonus is less than that from Tharne's. Looks interesting to be sure, though the benefits are significantly less than those from the Epic Claw set.


The hat has only a few good enhancements on it for Monks: Seeker +6 and Sneak Attack +5. The rest either give no benefit to a Monk, or are something like +5 Natural Armour. Using the hat for Sneak Attack ends up giving you less than what you would get from wearing Tharne's (lack of True Seeing), so Tharne's are still better. The Seeker +6 is more up in the air, though whether or not you wear it would probably depend on getting whatever was on your hat previously onto another slot, letting you wear Litany of the Dead (from a max-DPS perspective).

I don't really see either of these as being better than gear that's already present.

Dont trust the crafting screen stats: http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4...linggloves.jpg
And if the daze doesnt have saves (and IF it has the SA)....
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=120

[AylinIsAwesome]

[QUOTE=Lord_WC;3578661]Except if you put in a lucky 2k tod and horoth turns around. Aggro is not only overall damage dealt but amount dealt in a short time frame (<10s). If the hate tank is only moderately good I pull off aggro from him after a tod if I'm not careful. Wearing incite to deal more hate is suicidal on a halfway decent dark monk. Not mentioning you pull off aggro on unheld trash and then bye bye 3d6+8 SA damage.

Care to back it up with numbers? I find this hard to believe when sun is ahead with 1 ki/hit. Mainhand 10% doublestrike proc is 5,5% general attack number increase. So yeah, if you generate more than 18 ki on a hit with wind and 19 with fire, doublestrike pulls ahead.

Sun Monks wear the Shintao set, to take advantage of the +2 damage.

Wind Monks wear Oremi's Necklace, to take advantage of the +1 Ki per hit. With Crane Wind generates the same amount of Ki per hit that Sun does, and because Wind makes more attacks, generates more Ki.

This is excluding a Sun Monk wearing Oremi's, mainly due to not being able to use up that much Ki, and the +2 damage from Shintao being better in that case.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Dont trust the crafting screen stats: http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4...linggloves.jpg
And if the daze doesnt have saves (and IF it has the SA)....
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=120

+7 STR makes it a bit better, unless you can get +7 STR from another item, like Epic Red Dragon Helm or Epic Belt of the Mroranon, neither of which conflicts with wearing the Claw Set.

The daze does not have a save, as it states that it will work like Sap. The daze will last ~6 seconds, and does not produce auto-crit. The value of it will be determined by your Stunning Fist/Blow DC, and by the makeup/skill of your party members.


It's an interesting piece of equipment to be sure, but I just don't think it's good enough to forgo wearing the Claw set.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Please let's get the thread back on topic.

By this I mean, let's not discuss variables that cannot be easily examined (possible future optimal gear setups).

I like the consensus that when you deal a certain amount of damage per attack that wind will be superior in all cases. What is that number, can we work it out specifically? Is it likely to occur on a strength based monk after equipping dual bursted ToD rings? Or later when you finally find those holy of greater evil outsider bane wraps?

[AylinIsAwesome]

I like the consensus that when you deal a certain amount of damage per attack that wind will be superior in all cases. What is that number, can we work it out specifically? Is it likely to occur on a strength based monk after equipping dual bursted ToD rings? Or later when you finally find those holy of greater evil outsider bane wraps?

The number depends on a lot of different things.

What STR you have, what race you are, if you're getting Sneak Attacks, if you're Dark or Light, and the wraps.


The last calculation I did a while ago on this topic assumed you were always hitting on a 2, that the race was Half-Orc (Power Attack enhancements), both Monks Ninja Spy, and the mobs weren't resist to fire.

I had them in a slightly different gear setup, so that the Sun stance would got the most out of her/his gear, and the Wind stance one got the most out of her/his gear as well. If there is a difference, Sun gear first, the Wind.

Head: GS Lighting Strike (HP on each tier)
Necklace: Kyosho's Necklace/Oremi's Necklace*
Belt: Knost's Belt
Ring 1: Encrusted Ring (Holy Burst)
Ring 2: Kyosho's Ring/Oremi's Ring** (Shocking Burst)
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion
Cloak: Epic Cape of the Roc
Trinket: Epic Bloodstone
Goggles: Tharne's Goggles
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Bracers: Epic Bracers of the Claw
Robe: Epic Red Dragonscale Robe/Garments of Equilibrium***
Handwraps: Mabar

Mob assumptions: 0% Fort, no DR, no elemental resistances

*: Without Oremi's, Wind doesn't get enough Ki, so wearing Kyosho's is sup-par for a Wind Monk. On the other hand, the extra Ki generated from wearing Oremi's on a Sun Monk allows for less DPS over time than +2 damage from Kyosho's gives. Both in Oremi's favours the Wind Monk, and both in Kyosho's favours the Sun Monk, so I see no real reason to put them both into a single necklace

**: Completes the set to go along with the necklace worn

***: The Eternal Fire does not stack with the +1d6 Fire damage from Oremi's set, so wearing the Epic Dragonscale Robe on a Wind Monk only gives +1d10 Fire damage on critical hits. This makes it less DPS than wearing the Garments of Equilibrium. However, without conflict with the Ring/Necklace, the Red Dragonscale Robe is more DPS than the Garments, so the Sun Monk will wear the best robe available.


What I actually found was that, hitting on a 2, with this setup, the Wind Monk out-DPSed the Sun Monk for every positive STR value. Changing the race (no Power Attack enhancements) would of course change the number at which they become equal.

Also, changing the mob to be Horoth (and having the Sun Monk wear the Garments in this case) did move the equilibrium point to a positive value, though it was at 32 STR (several Monks I know have 36+ STR easily).


However, higher AC mobs would definitely throw it in favour of Sun heavily.


Basically, it really just comes down to what race you are and what gear you're wearing. If you PM me your build or post it or something I can include it when I do a more in-depth analysis of which builds are better with which stance at different STR values. It'll probably happen this weekend, when I'm not so busy with school.

EDIT: If someone knows of a list of what mobs have what AC (particularly mobs in Epic), that would help a lot as I'll need that to accurately calculate the DPS difference between the two stances.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

If you can hit a high AC, then those bracers are good for you. Most Monks I know cannot hit that though. Especially those that focus on DPS above all else.

As for other Epic items with slots I think are good to wear:

Epic Boots of Corrosion (Green)
Epic Dustless Boots (Yellow)
Epic Belt of the Mroranon (Yellow)
Epic Cape of the Roc (Yellow)

That's enough for GFL, +1 WIS and +1 STR/CON (whatever's not on your ToD ring). Depending on the exact build, even more can be fit into different slots.

Still no +2 Wisdom that you leave out all through your posts ... where do you get +2 ex wisdom from?

More about Sun than the bracers, though Wind isn't really behind in terms of Ki generation. It's actually slightly ahead, due to doublestrike.

I was purely talking about the usefulness of Jidz on some builds ... I am not debating Sun vs Wind DPS wise.

However, without knowing where you're getting Seeker 6/8 from and Backstabbing +5 from, I'm hesitant to believe that you're getting more DPS with Power Attack on than you would from these two items, save against high Fort mobs.

Again you are switching argument (because you like to argue) I have bloodstone and arrowhead and I am a halfling.
My point which you cannot accept is there are other very viable DPS builds other than yours. I am one of those and I use Jidz bracers because I have them. I would love a claw set ... they are **** hard to get.

I can Hit 70 AC with defensive fighting, DT or Icy's, bard, ranger cleric buffs and standing next to a Pali. When in this mode DPS is worse than half at a guess ...... it is situational and even sometimes fun but not seriously used often. I am missing one part of the sirens set which would give me a further 4 AC. Funnily enough I never even tried to makethis an AC build ... it just ended up being able to do this with the right gear, the Min dex for GTHF, max strength for a halfling and the rest into Wis. All halfling monks could achieve this without giving up anything on DPS.

How often are you in Wind stance? It sounds as though Wind isn't even really viable for you to use in terms of Ki generation (no Oremi's necklace), so why bring it up?

lol I have all the ToD sets including Oremis and all are crafted. You are quick to attack but not good at listening ... spose that fits a max DPS thread ... attack attack jks I actually use wind stance often, extra +1 stunning DC, no continuous haste available, switching to Max AC mode, using vorpals on trash in raids, swinging my epic souleater .... etc etc.

I never said they were worthless... Just that I don't wear those bracers. I focus on DPS, and let AC go as I don't care about it, so the +8 AC doesn't do anything for me. The +1 WIS I can just put on a slot on another item, and I don't really need the slots from it anyway.

If you care about SF DC's then you want the ravens set for +2 Wis which leaves your bracers free. Jidz then become a very good item for that slot.

How easy the items are to get has no bearing over how good the items themselves are.

Seriously - When giving advice you can max DPS a build on paper and you may never get to play that build. Worse you can end up gimp because the one or two pieces that make the build are missing. Example you don't have enough TH so you end up with power attack off and your DPS is low all because you need gear you don't have to increase your TH. The claw set without the right gear to compliment it will not give you max DPS cause your TH will be to low and your PA will always be off on a first life build.

You are lucky enough to have a Claw set. Most monks may never achieve this so alternative "easier to get" gear that still ends up close to max DPS is actually more important in some ways.

Epic Jidz bracers with Ravens set can have their place in a max DPS build - If you can't hit it or if you run out of Ki you can't achieve max DPS.

I am down only 2or4dmg by not using the claw set but I am up 6TH in sun stance and hasted with Shintao set on. My experience in Epics is to hit everything on a 2 I need the extra 6TH with power attack on and you need either Sun stance or Oremis on to generate enough Ki to use TOD and cycle continuously. And I can hit 70AC and I hit a 41DC on stunning fist. Loosing AC, loosing DC's (most important) and a massive grind for 2or4 dmg is not worth it imho. The time it takes ME to grind out a claw set I could TR and get an additional 4TH and 4dmg by going WF. (which is my plan once my TR barb gets back to 20)

[AylinIsAwesome]

My point which you cannot accept is there are other very viable DPS builds other than yours. I am one of those and I use Jidz bracers because I have them.

The only thing I'm going to say is this:

I build for max DPS on my Monk. Jidz'Tet-Ka are not max DPS, no matter how you look at it. Because of that, I don't wear them. I know several Monks that do. Good for them. It isn't max DPS though no matter how you look at it though. Trying to argue that it is max DPS is just plain silly.

I have bloodstone and arrowhead and I am a halfling.

Also, Backstabbing items stack with Halfling Cunning enhancements, so they're still good things to wear even for Halflings.

[Kinerd]

Is this counting Wind using Oremi's or Shintao? How big a difference is that making?

Shintao damage does almost nothing due to how bad the unarmed critical profile is. Without Oremi's, the amount Wind gains from double strike is about equal to the amount Fire gains from non-ToD strikes. (The specifics depend a lot on gear, but there aren't huge differences.) Throwing in Oremi's gives Wind enough to start hitting Elemental Strike IVs on cooldown, but you can't throw any gear in to give Fire double strike (yet) so Wind makes it an actual gap as opposed to a toss-up.

The real trick is having enough to-hit - everything I've seen suggests that with excellent gear/buffs monks are fine there even in Wind stance, so that's what I'm basing my findings on (and trying to stress the gear part).

What you miss is that 3 ki strikes can be cycled to proc 2-2-3, so we are talking about 84 damage during a cycle. Just from ki (and not counting crit earths) this amounts to 700-800 damage/min. Depending on your skill wind will get better only if you deal 80-100-ish damage per attack.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Each elemental strike IV you can keep firing every cooldown is about 12 DPS. If you can keep 3 strikes up, which is about what you should be able to do without Oremi's or Crane, that's 36 DPS. Wind stance gets you about that much back due to double strike in reasonable end-game gear.

I don't know what you mean by "cycle". I'm simply taking damage done by elemental strike IV, multiplied by strikes per swing, divided by 3 seconds. Those 3 seconds certainly overlap with the cooldowns of other elemental strikes, otherwise I would have said at most 12 DPS, which I did not.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I was purely talking about the usefulness of Jidz on some builds ... I am not debating Sun vs Wind DPS wise.

You admit here that you are intentionally derailing the thread. If you want to discuss the value of Jidz on monk builds then please do it elsewhere.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

The only thing I'm going to say is this:

I build for max DPS on my Monk. Jidz'Tet-Ka are not max DPS, no matter how you look at it. Because of that, I don't wear them. I know several Monks that do. Good for them. It isn't max DPS though no matter how you look at it though. Trying to argue that it is max DPS is just plain silly.

I am not trying to say Jidz is max dps and you are silly for misquoting this. But you do a good job of avoiding other aspects of max DPS like Ki generation and to hit. If you are missing or out of Ki you are not doing max DPS.

Also, Backstabbing items stack with Halfling Cunning enhancements, so they're still good things to wear even for Halflings.

Yes most know this .. and situationally it adds damage but again if you are missing or fighting red names/bosses fort monsters..... I'm Ninja 3 so with Hen set on I can get additional sneak Atk/dmg if I want (does that stack with Tharnes? I don't know)

If you have 32 strength base you have less to hit than my build and therefore I know you will miss things in epic on 3's and 4's maybe even higher therefore less DPS unless you turn off PA which then means less DPS.

Max Damage =/= Max DPS so OP if you want Max DPS ... become a completionist first. Trying to argue anything else is max DPS is plain silly. Actually that is a plain silly statement ... i'll admit it ... If you really want a max DPS build then build a Rogue. hehe.

For the record ..... Monks will never be Max DPS.

If your on your first life you strive for the gear some have listed ... but after your 60th epic run you still have less than half of it and during the grind you have PA off and shyt DPS cause your out of Ki ... just ask yourself "are we having fun yet" ?

Sun V's Wind - I use both situationally. Mostly Sun though because my party always hastes me.It is not clear cut as to which is Max DPS because its situational.
What gear - use what you can get aim high but don't be afraid to change mid way depending on what you get during your travels. for example - when I discovered what I could get my ac to I jumped out to Amarath and found I could solo Sins using my epic Souleater and take effectively take no damage.
To Hit is important in end game. Ignore it and when you get to end game you will understand.
Oremi's or Sun stance - you will need either for Ki gen if you want max DPS

If you go sun stance you go Shintao so its not +2 TH&D diff it's +4 difference if your strength build. So the OP's question of sun vs wind for Max DPS is really is Sun +4 TH and +4 damage v's Wind additional 10% proc rate. Assuming both Hasted.

I don't know the answer but I am sure some of the Math wizzies can churn some numbers out.

[Anthios888]

Oremi's or Sun stance - you will need either for Ki gen if you want max DPS

when I discovered what I could get my ac to I jumped out to Amarath and found I could solo Sins using my epic Souleater and take effectively take no damage.

. . .

Umm... Bodyfeeder?

[xxScoobyDooxx]

. . .

Umm... Bodyfeeder?

yes ... or the Stone wraps with Vampiric on them ... but the Souleater worked better. I cleared all the levels in Invasion and never took more than 50 damage .... I was to chicken to drop down and try the boss tho .... he would have handed me my ass

[xxScoobyDooxx]

You admit here that you are intentionally derailing the thread. If you want to discuss the value of Jidz on monk builds then please do it elsewhere.

seriously dude ... if thats how you read it good luck to you. (nice use of selective cut and paste quoting) Have fun in wind stance ... you seem to do a good job of selective reading to hear only what you wanna hear.

Follow Aylin's advice ... I sincerely mean it when I say it is good. (I wish I had a claw set

I will leave you with this ... every time you see a MISS float up the screen think SCOOBYDOOBYDOOOOOOO

peace out

[wax_on_wax_off]

I am not trying to say Jidz is max dps and you are silly for misquoting this. But you do a good job of avoiding other aspects of max DPS like Ki generation and to hit. If you are missing or out of Ki you are not doing max DPS.



Yes most know this .. and situationally it adds damage but again if you are missing or fighting red names/bosses fort monsters..... I'm Ninja 3 so with Hen set on I can get additional sneak Atk/dmg if I want (does that stack with Tharnes? I don't know)

If you have 32 strength base you have less to hit than my build and therefore I know you will miss things in epic on 3's and 4's maybe even higher therefore less DPS unless you turn off PA which then means less DPS.

Max Damage =/= Max DPS so OP if you want Max DPS ... become a completionist first. Trying to argue anything else is max DPS is plain silly. Actually that is a plain silly statement ... i'll admit it ... If you really want a max DPS build then build a Rogue. hehe.

For the record ..... Monks will never be Max DPS.

If your on your first life you strive for the gear some have listed ... but after your 60th epic run you still have less than half of it and during the grind you have PA off and shyt DPS cause your out of Ki ... just ask yourself "are we having fun yet" ?

Sun V's Wind - I use both situationally. Mostly Sun though because my party always hastes me.It is not clear cut as to which is Max DPS because its situational.
What gear - use what you can get aim high but don't be afraid to change mid way depending on what you get during your travels. for example - when I discovered what I could get my ac to I jumped out to Amarath and found I could solo Sins using my epic Souleater and take effectively take no damage.
To Hit is important in end game. Ignore it and when you get to end game you will understand.
Oremi's or Sun stance - you will need either for Ki gen if you want max DPS

If you go sun stance you go Shintao so its not +2 TH&D diff it's +4 difference if your strength build. So the OP's question of sun vs wind for Max DPS is really is Sun +4 TH and +4 damage v's Wind additional 10% proc rate. Assuming both Hasted.

I don't know the answer but I am sure some of the Math wizzies can churn some numbers out.

Referring to your comments about Jidz as derailing is not misquoting as whether your character wears jidz has nothing to do with this thread. Also, your character being able to solo sins on elite really has nothing to do with this thread, perhaps post something in the achievements forum?

Tharnes will certainly stack with every form of class or racial sneak attack for an extra 4 or 8 damage (depending on fort) which is very valuable and should be in every DPS build (or something equivalent).

Besides that, you say some very good things in your reply. Your summary of the differences is quite accurate and you are very correct in your observation that either stance should be used situationally. The reason that I made this thread is that there seems to be a new breed of monks post-shintao rework who sit in fire stance all the time exclusive to everything else thinking that it is the maximum DPS stance for all situations. This obviously isn't the case but hopefully we can work out together the best balance to educate us all on on how to be the best monks that we can be.

Personally, it would seem that the best setup would be to be in Wind Stance most of the time but when those high AC mobs come along switch out Oremi's to Shintao set and put on Master Fire Stance (prereq for void IV anyway) and have the best of both worlds (maybe only have +3 att/dam instead of +4 depending on strength score). The difference between Wind III and Wind IV is quite significant - 2.5% doublestrike. However, the difference between Fire III and Fire IV is not such a big deal - 0.5 damage, 1 Ki on criticals. This gives the additional advantage of having Storm Strike IV which is vastly superior to Fire Strike IV in a majority of content.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Personally, it would seem that the best setup would be to be in Wind Stance most of the time but when those high AC mobs come along switch out Oremi's to Shintao set and put on Master Fire Stance (prereq for void IV anyway) and have the best of both worlds (maybe only have +3 att/dam instead of +4 depending on strength score). The difference between Wind III and Wind IV is quite significant - 2.5% doublestrike. However, the difference between Fire III and Fire IV is not such a big deal - 0.5 damage, 1 Ki on criticals. This gives the additional advantage of having Storm Strike IV which is vastly superior to Fire Strike IV in a majority of content.

The issue with taking Wind 4 and up to Sun 3 is AP, especially with Warforged, Halfling, Helf Elf and Half Orc Monks. I know there's no way I can fit in any levels of Sun stance on my Monk, and this is before Ninja Spy 3 comes out.

However, if your STR is even in Wind Stance, then Sun Stance 1 will also give you an even STR, although only +2 instead of +4. As you're likely to have Crane to generate Ki in Wind Stance the smaller amount of Ki per critical won't be that big an issue to you, so you're really only -1/-1 a Monk with Sun 4. Combined with Kyosho's set, this might be enough to improve your DPS enough against high AC mobs from Wind 4, though I'd have to run some numbers later to be completely sure.


Also ScoobyDo, by not wearing Tharne's or another source of Backstabbing +5 you're missing out on +5 to-hit when you don't have aggro.

[Undone1]

Head: GS Lighting Strike (HP on each tier)
Necklace: Kyosho's Necklace/Oremi's Necklace*
Belt: Knost's Belt
Ring 1: Encrusted Ring (Holy Burst)
Ring 2: Kyosho's Ring/Oremi's Ring** (Shocking Burst)
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion
Cloak: Epic Cape of the Roc
Trinket: Epic Bloodstone
Goggles: Tharne's Goggles
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Bracers: Epic Bracers of the Claw
Robe: Epic Red Dragonscale Robe/Garments of Equilibrium***
Handwraps: Mabar

Do you believe that knosts + ring trumps a GS belt or a belt of the moronan, I ask this because if you dropped the 2 points of damage and put your GS here you can equip the new +5 sneak attack pirate hat and have a +2 wis item on the goggles (time sensing or ravens sight). I guess its 2 points of damage vs +1 wisdom modifier, I would think the DC's would do more than the 2 points of damage but I might be wrong.