Raise the ML of GS weapons/equipment

[Lorien_the_First_One]

By your logic, if epic weapons were level 12 ML, then they should stay that way. Because people worked hard and paid a lot to get them. And then nobody can even suggest otherwise. If Epic SoS was ML 12, it would be OP. This is a fact. Sure people could choose not to use it, but when it was, it would be extremely imbalanced. This happens to a lesser degree with GS.

The point is, just because they worked for it does not mean it is not overpowered...

As long as more ppl around lv 12 do NOT have GS items, the GS is imbalancing play for them. It is not "******** and selfish" to want balanced gameplay for most players.

Anyway, i renounce my argument, too much neg rep makes me sad :[

TRS played a time, they get good weapons, yay.

Do the math for a GS Lit II Falchon. Then do the same math for a Frost Burst Holy Falchon of PG. You might be surprised how little overpowered those GS weapons are compared to what everyone else can get.

Now try a ML2 (or is that ML4?) Frost Burst of pure good and see how overpowered that is.

There are bigger imbalances in the game.

[stille_nacht]

Do the math for a GS Lit II Falchon. Then do the same math for a Frost Burst Holy Falchon of PG. You might be surprised how little overpowered those GS weapons are compared to what everyone else can get.

Now try a ML2 (or is that ML4?) Frost Burst of pure good and see how overpowered that is.

There are bigger imbalances in the game.

a very valid point

Frost burst ~ shock burst
Holy= Holy
PG damage ~ shock blast damage (a bit leeway i think)
+2 < +5 by 3

then the falchion gets lightning strike. this contributes 12 damage/hit average, however that is not too bad, and besides, when it procs, it wont really matter except against bosses.

So yeah, less OP then i thought, reasonable for TRs to have.. Would still advocate raising ML to 14, but wont, because.. you know.

and yeah, the risia event probably produced to most op equipment for lower levels...

[weyoun]

Hell yeah, you need to upgrade that - it doesn't change the ML does it?

[sephiroth1084]

The Join Date of the OP answers all of the questions of the reason behind the post.

Lets turn on the "Way Back Machine" -

When the Shroud came out, the level cap was 16. Everyone running the Shroud was under level. Under level starting at 12th level for the Shroud. The level that you could go into the Shroud at. So the the ML of greensteal was set at 12. The level that you could first get GS at. Besides that, you got a nice below level bonus for completing a quest too.

Now, Da Devs have set min levels you have to have before you can even go into a wilderness areas, you no longer get under level xp bonus and now you want to take away GS at ML12 because you don't have any. I can tell you this right now, it doesn't really matter if I TR has GS in Gianthold or not. You want to know why? Becasue the TR knows what to use. So if it wasn't GS you wanted nerf, then it would be the next thing you don't have.

So stop jealousing on our weapons and get your own.

Actually, greensteel was originally ML 8.

a very valid point

Frost burst ~ shock burst
Holy= Holy
PG damage ~ shock blast damage (a bit leeway i think) Not really equal there.
+2 < +5 by 3

then the falchion gets lightning strike. this contributes 12 damage/hit average, however that is not too bad, and besides, when it procs, it wont really matter except against bosses. The Lightning Strike proc is often entirely wasted in lower level content where monsters have too little HP for a 500+ point strike of rare occurrence to matter. A vorpal does the same thing but triggers more frequently and can be obtained at a lower level.

So yeah, less OP then i thought, reasonable for TRs to have.. Would still advocate raising ML to 14, but wont, because.. you know.

and yeah, the risia event probably produced to most op equipment for lower levels...I don't see your thread on raising the ML on Risia items, though...

[Templarion]

I was wrong, TRs should totally be able to have lv 12 GS weapons

I see the lesson is learnt. That's good.

One of the main reasons I am playing this game is the feel of the power after multiple TRs.

[zealous]

There are bigger imbalances in the game.

mintu daxe
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
7 holy
1.1 burst
0.7 blast
3.5 base damage
ml 12
____
18.3

Kobbie killah (rr dwarf icy burst dwarven axe of greater reptilian bane)
11 greater bane
3.5 frost
0.55 icy burst
ml 4
____
15.05

random ml12 holy greater bane
11 greater bane
7 holy
3.5 frost
0.55 icy burst
____
22

Which one of these is most imbalanced?
Which one is most powerful at lvl12?

[Ranmaru2]

To the OP. NERFING is nearly always wrong.

I'm wondering why is this is a widespread belief held by gamers?

When something proves a problem to the current implementation of something in a game, it deserves to be looked at and evaluated:

1) Sure you can state that newer players are "highly unlikely" to run into TR 1s and 2s possessing GS items at level, be they 8 or 12, however that is counting a disparagement of what? 70-100%?

That's 30% left wherein the situation of Party A with LFM encountering TR 1, 2, and/or 3 in quest level 8 through 12 proves to be a likely scenario, and, thus, something that has, had, or will happen.

Saying that it is highly unlikely is far from the truth and doesn't take into account human will to get to the simplest path, which in this case is obtaining GS/raid items to make the leveling process go that much smoother.

Lets evaluate a scenario:

Say I've run the shroud enough times to cleanse 4 Concordant Opposition items - 2 Weapons (Holy, Neg absorb, Good Blast = Weapon 1 level 8 req || Holy, Evil Burst, and Good Blast/Healing Amp 30% = Weapon 2 level 12 req), 1 Goggles (Full SP), and 1 Cloak (Full HP) - and have run the DQ enough to acquire a Torc of Raiyum.

I decide to TR as that will allow my character to reach the power potential I know it can reach through the TR process. I TR as the same build (Insert TWFing SP containing build here) and proceed to level my character up and when I get to level 8, I acquire my first GS weapon (Weapon 1). I continue to level my character, however my enjoyment level of the game has dipped from the excitement before I reached level 12. Level 11 rolls around and now I have my other 2 GS items and the torc, which boost my survivability up to near god-like proportions, lowering my excitement threshold below 50%, and once I hit 12 and acquire the other item, it reaches 0%. Why? The combination of the procs of the Torc and Con Opp have made it nearly impossible for me to die from anything but a 1 on an insta-death and trap.

I throw away the GS items and the torc and put them in my bank and equip more at level gear and my excitement level begins to rise again, as there's an actual sense of eagerness to survive that has returned to the game that wasn't there before. I reach level 20 and am happy with my results and decide to don my GS items once again and find that NOW they still give me the level of enjoyment I had leveling without them, as they're being used at what I see as the more level friendly area for their existence, unlike my leveling experience from earlier.

In this case, the existence of the GS items and the raid items at points in the game they clearly weren't designed for has crippled a players' enjoyment and willingness to play the game within the bounds of the current development of the items in question.

The fact that this scenario is able to come up does give it some credence for consideration, as I have run in to many TRs who feel like their GS and other equipment trivialize much of the content of the game and show just how the content WAS NOT designed for the game prior to its existence.

Possible questions to arise out of this scenario are:

1) Are these items too powerful for the level they're able to be obtained?
2) Are these weapons even remotely balanced to the level they're able to be obtained and the effects placed upon them?
3) Are these items fun to use? If so, when?
4) While I'm entitled to the loot I have earned, should it be used/allowed at such low levels wherein a boss can be 1 shot up to 5% of the time from 1-2 item(s) out of 13 possible items?
5) Does this entitle the redesign of this content or the items I'm wearing?

#5 seems like the easiest to propose or take a look at, however that becomes a huge issue as redesigning content for things people aren't going to have on their first play through would be too punishing to newer players and deter growth for a game that relies on population stability/growth.

It is here that you might have to take a look, not at the content BEFORE the items' existence, but rather the things AFTER the content came into existence. What happened as a result? Does this content make other content more or less enjoyable?

Now we can even flip the above in that there are people who start to enjoy the game MORE as they acquire the 5 items mentioned above as it makes the level creep go by faster, and they can be just as large of a population as the other.

This is where the biggest issue arises:

Who is in the right and who has a more viable argument for their position?

Arguments that often fail:

1) I'm entitled to what I earned and will use it since I earned it no matter what it does to the game up to wherever it is in the game it was intended for. The Developers should keep themselves away from my stuff.

a) This argument of entitlement often comes as the sole reason why someone doesn't want their stuff touched and usually doesn't include any observations, thoughts, or ideas on how to reach a compromise.

b) This argument makes no sense as it argues nothing about the issue at hand, but rather argues about items accrued over a ranging time period and the fact that the developers did little-to-nothing before the present and should keep it that way. The argument wants to maintain the status quo.

c) Forwarding the debate is impossible, as "My stuff, hands off" doesn't really tell why person A who thinks change X should be considered is wrong.

d) Where does the "right" to your stuff and the maintaining of the status quo come from?

You don't own the characters on your account, as they exist on the servers of the company that has hired the developers and you either pay for storage space that is borrowed to you for your monthly payment that can be canceled at anytime as per the EULA and TOS you agreed to when you started, or are borrowing space on a 100% them supporting all financial business to do with that storage space. The character files are not stored on your computer and right-protected to your computer, allowing you to claim ownership via place of origin and storage home.

1') I'm entitled to what I earned however I choose to not use it since I can see that it does things to the game that I don't like. Developers feel free to tweak/nerf my stuff.

a) Why? What is there that you don't like? While one example is groovy, it is but one example, while providing the above scenario that allows observations from an entire accumulated "life" of gameplay allows for more ways to be seen as to why a "tweak/nerf" is warranted.

b) Much like argument (1) this counter argument doesn't forward the argument itself, nor provide justifications either way.

c) Doesn't answer where the entitlement comes from much like (1).

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2) You can use +A B C D of E and achieve the same results.

a) The items are not the same, and as to an earlier stated example, a +5 holy of pure good unless RR is +2 higher levels than GS weaponry and is incomparable for the "same" power acquisition at the same level.

b) Weapons of this type require much more of an appeal to the argument that "random chance has been favorable to you via money acquisition or loot acquisition so that you have these items when you get to the same point in the game." This is arguing about loot tables and presuming that the character/player in question has the access to the item, when just the opposite is likely to be true wherein "random chance hasn't been favorable to you via money acquisition or loot acquisition so that you don't have these items and have no way of getting these items at the same point in the game." Other side of argument is never addressed.

c) Too item specific. Random Loot and type of comparable random loot.

d) Some GS and raid items have no viable random loot comparison for effects.

e) Assumes that item in question has been acquired and that event has been done.

f) Fails to take into account people not around for applicable events.

g) Doesn't have a culmination experience whereby player went through game with just that item in place of argued item to counter.

2') I can't use +A B C D of E and achieve the same results.

a) Don't have the RR item necessary to reach the same example item from above. I don't have or wasn't able to acquire the item or participate in the event.

b) "random chance hasn't been favorable to you via money acquisition or loot acquisition so that you don't have these items and have no way of getting these items at the same point in the game."

Doesn't address: "random chance has been favorable to you via money acquisition or loot acquisition so that you have these items when you get to the same point in the game."

c) Too item/content specific - Greensteel/Raid

d) Too different to allow comparison

e) Assumes raid has been done and item acquired.

----------------------------------------------------

3) I'll quit the game if you touch my item.

a) Dodging the argument

b) No reasons given.

c) Usually joins with entitlement argument and brings with it the problems above.

d) Doesn't forward argument

e) Dead end

f) Lacks applicable game reasoning

3') I won't quit the game but don't prefer this proposed change.

a + b) from above

c) May bring in entitlement argument and brings with it the problems above

d) Doesn't forward argument

e) Dead End

f) Lacks applicable game reasoning

---------------------------------------------------------

4) Assumes suggested nerf/balance inquiry to be wrong and bad.

a) Doesn't take into consideration proper applications of what the existence of this content has done or does to future content.

b) Assumes status quo to be best, although status quo is what brought up the "problem" in question

c) Does not propose how the problem in question is right and exists well enough as it is in terms of actual content existence, but rather assumes reward for play through to be reason enough.

4') Assumes suggested nerf/balance inquiry to be right and good.

a) Doesn't take into consideration proper applications of what this means to all that is or will be.

b) Assumes change to be best, dealing with superficial reasoning that has no supportable ground [too bad there's no server to test these type of changes]

Mildly places this counter point in the hands of the development team who give no way to test the opposite/tweakages...

c) Proposes why it is wrong, but may not provide sufficient reasoning why.



I think that if we can take a look at the above and the counter points listed below them, we might be able to get nearer to reaching a consensus on issues like greensteel, which often bring up all 4 of the arguments presented above and which rely on all their flaws to announce yay or nay to a change. A bit more evidence for each side of the argument or even proper acknowledgment of both sides' existence and equal breathing room would go a long way in making it so, like in the modified OP, he's not having to say:

Nevermind, i changed my mind after the 10 neg reps.

I was wrong, TRs should totally be able to have lv 12 GS weapons

It is entirely possible to get them at level 12.

We can do better with supplying sufficient argumentation.

[Aaxeyu]

There are bigger imbalances in the game.

I don't see your thread on raising the ML on Risia items, though...

How is that relevant at all?

[Tumarek]

snip

Nice one... +1

More commen sense in this post then i expected in the whole thread

Nevermind, i changed my mind after the 10 neg reps.

I was wrong, TRs should totally be able to have lv 12 GS weapons

It is entirely possible to get them at level 12.

You care to much about rep... It comes and it goes, no reason to be intimidated.

[Zenako]

How is that relevant at all?

Because if it was truely the principle of overpowered weapons that was the core concern, then when one looks at other parts of the game and the weapons that can come out them, then you see much the same power creep. Which as a result does reduce the margin between random weapons and GS, making the original observation less significant since the baseline for "normal" power has been raised to be closer to GS.

The one huge difference is that GS can be crafted as you want it, and more or less when you want it, while the powerful "normal" but random weapon drops can be very unpredictable in frequency for any one person. Oh yeah my mid level favored soul loves running around with Holy Burst Icy Burst Scimitars of Pure Good or Righteous, but I ended up with those weapons after years of play and obviously some Risia crafting. Nasty nasty damage for those levels.

[dunklezhan]

Haven't read the whole thread, I'm sure there's good points made on both sides with a large side helping of drama. I might go read it all later.

I agree with the general point the OP makes - I think the stuff's too powerful at L12, even given that you've ground your backside flat to get it and then TR'd and want to use it again. I'm not sure I'd totally nerf it or just raise it straight to ML15 or what have you - a L12 CAN do those quests, why should they be denied, let alone someone who's done it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to get their top level GS in all slots finished over the course of a couple of TRs?

But I do think there's room for some tweaking. My suggestion would be this:
1. Blanks should be ML10
2. for each tier of effect, add +1 ML. That should bring a fully finished item to what, ML14? 13?

Some further food for thought (this may well have been pointed out already): if you don't think a top tier GS equipped character is OP at L12, what would you think about epic gear being ML17+? I mean you worked really hard for that too, right? Because of the random nature at epic, it may have taken you even longer just to get one piece of gear than it did to do all your GS to top tier.

Note - Whilstever things remain as they are with GS, I wouldn't have a problem with epics being ML17 personally: Some top tier GS is arguably better than a lot of epic gear anyway. If they're not going to balance that, then they may as well open up the epic gear somewhat for reuse at lower levels once you've obtained it at 20 on your current life.

EDIT: now read the whole thread, see both my points have been raised, though I would argue not explored (in the case of the scaling ML which A_D also suggested there was a post just saying 'still no' and that was it, and the point re epic was 'countered' only with using eSOS as an example missing the point that there is more GS that is better than epic gear than vice versa).

But I did encounter several posts saying its part of the motivation for TRing and one other saying the game is now built on TR. I had not really considered these as factors, particularly the latter. If the latter is true (and perhaps the epic 'reboot' will show us the veracity of this claim one way or the other when it arrives) then I think that's possibly the deciding factor in maintaining the status quo (beyond technical barriers such as 'they can't change the ML of existing loot').

But I still think the scaling ML suggestion something along the lines of that suggested by A_D at the start and me just now would be a very good compromise.

[Ranmaru2]

Because if it was truely the principle of overpowered weapons that was the core concern, then when one looks at other parts of the game and the weapons that can come out them, then you see much the same power creep. Which as a result does reduce the margin between random weapons and GS, making the original observation less significant since the baseline for "normal" power has been raised to be closer to GS.

So then what do we use as a valid comparison other than the usual Holy (burst) (Icy Kit) of Pure Good?

You already confess that the rarity of such types of weapons makes them highly valued, and not something that can pop up like candy amongst the player base, nor be configured to be how you want it such as with Greensteel weaponry/items. And the higher damage dice is something you're missing on the other weapons, which in some cases, that +1 damage alone can mean the difference between life and death.

what's a valid comparison?

Epics? They're not useful during the leveling process.

Greater Banes? This is suffers from the same problem as your Holy (Burst) (Icy Kit) of Pure Good weapons wherein you need to find the right configuration that can be used BEFORE you acquire your GS.

Raid Loot?

The Sword of Shadows still ranks up there, but that's one weapon that becomes obsolete to GS or even +5 Metalline Pure Good by hard vale content.

Enduring Conviction? Gotta loot one first, and while they are pretty common, they're also relatively selective as to what you can hit them with for the full extent of the damage.

Cloudburst? Don't make me laugh. It's a glorified ooze beater.

Dreamspitter? Ok, that's a nice one, but you'd need some sort of hold effect to really use it, or REALLY early access to the dreaming dark or already have it unsuppressed.

Chaosblade? Its usefulness might be passed over by the Sora Katra loot now that you can put lesser vamp on whichever weapon from there is able to hold it.

Newer Sora Katra loot?

Ok...lets take a look.

They have a small bit of customization, but not nearly the same amount as greensteel, and the only real item that compares to the power of a greensteel is the Master Transmuter's Staff, unless you're having a field day with the petrifying effects of the weapons. Then again, the trap the soul gs weapon could do better than these.

Incredible Potential? That's level 18 onward..so meh.

All of these weapons have a hard time coming up with a way to do a 80-650 damage smack, and while that doesn't add much to the DPS number numerology department, that potential of even being there adds to both survivability and the utility of the weapons. Being able to run into VON 3 and just blasting the Marut with a Disintegrate from a GS makes the fight that much easier, or supplies a +4 insight for Elite that will get you up to the no hit AC values necessary to make that fight just one giant laughing festival.

I ask then what is the most valid comparison for both equipment and weaponry that packs THAT MANY enchantments into one place and also doesn't rely on the best loot dice days of your life in places like the Giant Loot Caves, GH, and the Vale to acquire of a comparable level to the level 8/12 margin of Greensteels?

Icy Burst kitting weapons only takes you so far.

[Ravoc-DDO]

Sad to see the OP being forced to stand down due to neg reps.

Why don't we draw the line all the way to the end then, and request all GS to be ML8 again?

[PopeJual]

I ask then what is the most valid comparison for both equipment and weaponry that packs THAT MANY enchantments into one place and also doesn't rely on the best loot dice days of your life in places like the Giant Loot Caves, GH, and the Vale to acquire of a comparable level to the level 8/12 margin of Greensteels?

Icy Burst kitting weapons only takes you so far.

Let's say that all the greensteel in the world suddenly vanished. There would still be something that counts as the "best" loot and someone would call for that to be nerfed as well.

The real question is whether having greensteel singificantly unbalances the game. I'd say that most of the people in this thread think that it does not. When having generic twink gear and tomes farmed by capped characters makes VoN and Gianthold as easy as they already are (and when people run the quests at character level = quest level +1 in order to bank as much XP as possible), then the problem isn't Greensteel. It's something else.

[Ranmaru2]

Let's say that all the greensteel in the world suddenly vanished. There would still be something that counts as the "best" loot and someone would call for that to be nerfed as well.

I'd imagine we'd start to see many more debates about the different Epic Weapons versus now where we still compare them to Lit IIs...

The real question is whether having greensteel singificantly unbalances the game. I'd say that most of the people in this thread think that it does not. When having generic twink gear and tomes farmed by capped characters makes VoN and Gianthold as easy as they already are (and when people run the quests at character level = quest level +1 in order to bank as much XP as possible), then the problem isn't Greensteel. It's something else.

Part of the problem with, say, the Gianthold content is that the content was tooled around then acceptable strength values and weapons in existence (back when random loot was your best hope). This was when having the inventory page full of greater banes was the common practice, and didn't really allow for one to get exceedingly powerful weapons at a whim on every single character via one location. The only class reaching over 40 strength for sustainable levels was the barbarian, which vastly reduced the amount of outgoing DPS from anything but casters. This allowed the monsters in Gianthold to have the lower HP values they have versus monsters like in the Vale and the Assault on Stormreach packs.

And this is where the Greensteel issue arises with this content, as it's the number of enchantments proccing at once, as well as the different kinds of enchantments (such as level 13 tharne's +8 sneak attack) that start to make it look like a walk in the park with the Greensteel weaponry. +5 holy was awesome to be swinging then, or collections of the appropriate alignment + greater bane weaponry, combined with the monsters actually being able to hit us no matter what, as the current AC levels were only obtained by very specialized builds that sacrificed A LOT. Your other top weapon was the Sword of Shadows, which everyone strived for instead of asking to be nerfed.

The content wasn't designed with Kensai, Frenzied Berserker, and Defenders in mind, which add a whole new level to how our characters can now walk in there and mop the floor with content which was actually somewhat of a challenge back then. Gianthold Tor on Elite was one of the hardest things you could do all the way through. Although, granted, there was still Barb Crit Rage to bring into consideration, but that was about it for MEGA DPS boosts.

Does this mean that they need to give this content a pass and upgrade it or tweak it some more? That depends on how many people going into a quest is being used as the base for this. The whole dungeon scaling mechanic puts a unique twist on this mechanic, especially when TR people or groups tend to be small 1-3 people, unless you have a static party going on the TR journey. This is at least a -10% HP amount on the enemies, which makes it that much easier for level 8/12 greensteel weapons to drop enemy monsters, or a now easily acquirable greater bane to clobber them.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

So then what do we use as a valid comparison other than the usual Holy (burst) (Icy Kit) of Pure Good? You already confess that the rarity of such types of weapons makes them highly valued, and not something that can pop up like candy amongst the player base,

They aren't rare. I have a stockpile of holy/pg weapons that to an old timer seem too good to vendor trash and yet I can't sell on the AH. Icy burst kits were once rare, not so much now. For under 100K plat (a TINY fraction of the value of of GS) you can buy a complete icy kit, or you can jump for a while and get it free. The festival itself seems to be on as much as its off lately which has eliminated any rarity.

Greater Banes? This is suffers from the same problem as your Holy (Burst) (Icy Kit) of Pure Good weapons wherein you need to find the right configuration that can be used BEFORE you acquire your GS.

Once again I've taken to vendor trashing greater banes because I ran out of room to store the good ones and I can't even seem to sell them for face value on the AH half the time.

Really all GS weapons do at mid level is let you consolidate to a handful of weapons instead of the old 20+weapon sets we all used to carry pre GS

[Ranmaru2]

They aren't rare. I have a stockpile of holy/pg weapons that to an old timer seem too good to vendor trash and yet I can't sell on the AH. Icy burst kits were once rare, not so much now. For under 100K plat (a TINY fraction of the value of of GS) you can buy a complete icy kit, or you can jump for a while and get it free. The festival itself seems to be on as much as its off lately which has eliminated any rarity.

Once again I've taken to vendor trashing greater banes because I ran out of room to store the good ones and I can't even seem to sell them for face value on the AH half the time.

But by the same token, not everyone has the 4 1/6 years of stockpiled equipment like we do from when the Greater Bane was the sought after weapon versus now where the shroud can be seen as more of a baseline.

I mean, the number of awesome greater banes I find in the house d vendor is astronomically higher now, and yet it confuses me when I run into the same people going through another TR who don't have weapons for leveling...

[stille_nacht]

Yeah risia weapons should be raised a little, maybe have the ML increase by 2 for the burst ritual? Unsure. But then again, many people have an icy bursting weapon now, so it isnt really op per se, because everyone has got one.

This just sorta occurred to me while i was beating velah to death with dual lit IIs. The rest of my party was all like "omg" and "amazing", and i was at least 33% of the parties combined dps. This got me thinking along the lines of "isnt this sort of OP...". So i made a thread, wasnt considering whole game, etc. etc.

Also, risia twink gear does come pretty close, as mentioned by an above poster. a HB FB [weapon] of PG with the same ML of Lit II does lightning strike (not worth much in this level, as a 2% 600 more often than not doesn't really matter) and +3 less (not much).

Also, it is a valid comparison, a hb of pg weapon + an ib kit costs less than one large devil scale, simply surfing the AH for a few days, and sufficient funds will net someone that very twink weapon. It takes more than a few days to farm enough for a double imbued gs weapon, as such, the obtainability of hb fb pg weapons is actually a bit higher (i think)

Also, great post Ranmaru, very well reasoned.

[BlackSteel]

just to point out, quite a few of us in fact did run the shroud at lvl 12 back in the day to craft ASAP. My cleric had an accessory and a weapon fully crafted to tier 3 before he hit 13. When the lvl cap was 16, being grouped for shroud as a 12 with a bunch of 16s was no big deal. The same could be true at 20, but I dont see many pugs reasonably taking anyone below 17.

I think the ship on the ML on greensteel has long since sailed. It was originally 8, and they fixed it to 12. and with the cap at 20, the only people at lvl 12 that will have GS will indeed be TR's. But honestly its not that game breaking considering there are high damage alternatives in greater banes. The strength of GS weaponary comes in eliminating the need of a golf bag full of weapons.

all the arguments I've seen made to raise the ML of GS, not only apply to GS, but all old raid loot. There are several items with lower ML than GS that are far far more game breaking. SoS, Chattering Ring, DQ bracers, and the torq to name a few

[protokon]

greensteel is overpowering no matter what ML is put on it. even now 75% of epic items are laughed at due to the sheer capabilities you can place on a greensteel item that are just as powerful, if not more.

what you are asking for is simply to make the already ridiculous TR grind even harder. Sorry, but if you can't keep up with the guy who has years of work gathering greensteel and raid equipment, I don't think their toys should be taken away just because you haven't done the work to obtain them yet.

if you don't like playing with TR's who are decked out with greensteel, then, erm..don't play with them.

not signed.