DEX vs STR

[infinidibulum]

Is this the right part of the forum to say that I believe DEX should be the basis for melee to-hit instead of STR?

[Zilta]

This would go better in the suggestions part of the forum I believe.

[Lord_WC]

Is this the right part of the forum to say that I believe DEX should be the basis for melee to-hit instead of STR?

There's a feat for that...

[Emili]

Dex is the basis of To-Hit if you take the "Weapon Finesse" feat.

There is actually reason why "Str" as an atrribute was poised as the "To-hit" in the early DnD model ...

Str = mod To-hit, mod Damage
Dex = mod AC, mod Reflex save
Con = mod HP, mod Fort save
Int = mod spell DC, mod skill points
Wis = mod spell DC, mod will save
Cha = mod spell DC, mod certain class abilities

You can see from list is a balance of what attributes entail, and thus why Weapon Finesse is paid for by feat ... If Dex were controlling another attribute it would become more sought than all the rest and on top of that in DDO we'd have three races (drow/elf/halfling) beciming more the epitome choice for melee and most current Two-handed builds would fall into the bit bucket... the basic scheme of things would place Barbs, fighters and pally on the ropes of even harder to build most likely also... so the scope of entire class abilities would also have to be redesigned... you'd also have every H-orc barb on your server come looking for your head.

[iconiclastic]

If you have a high dexterity then you should take the weapon finesse feat.This will substitute your to hit,for any light weapon according to your dexterity,rather than your strength.Heavier weapons will default to your strength automatically and it is a passive feat.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Is this the right part of the forum to say that I believe DEX should be the basis for melee to-hit instead of STR?

It's a bad idea.

As has already been explained, there is a built in balance to this. It is also consistant with D&D 3.x rules, which this game is based on.

You can use the finesse feat to use dex on light weapons for your to-hit.

[Emili]

It's a bad idea.

As has already been explained, there is a built in balance to this. It is also consistant with D&D 3.x rules, which this game is based on.

You can use the finesse feat to use dex on light weapons for your to-hit.

One thing I have thought about before ... is the possibility of relaxing the "Weapon Finesse" feat to encompass instead ot those weapons (light) listed (DnD rule) to that of weapons your build is proficent with. Thus possibility of a monk or acrobat finessing a staff or a build finesse of scimitar etc...

While outside the nature of the idea behind the feat I think given the nature of DDO's open season on Str bering buffs it would offer some variance and versitility to those utilizing a finesse based melee character.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

One thing I have thought about before ... is the possibility of relaxing the "Weapon Finesse" feat to encompass instead ot those weapons (light) listed (DnD rule) to that of weapons your build is proficent with. Thus possibility of a monk or acrobat finessing a staff or a build finesse of scimitar etc...

While outside the nature of the idea behind the feat I think given the nature of DDO's open season on Str bering buffs it would offer some variance and versitility to those utilizing a finesse based melee character.

Actually I've always felt that a Quarterstaff should be finessable. It just feels right from a thematic point of view and given the way Monks and Rogues have been set up in DDO, someone seems to think that they should be using Qstaffs on dex builds....

I'm not sure it makes as much sense to allow finesse to let you handle a maul.

I might be convinced it should allow you to handle all one-handed weapons, but do kind of like the idea the rapiers are special that way...

[Emili]

Actually I've always felt that a Quarterstaff should be finessable. It just feels right from a thematic point of view and given the way Monks and Rogues have been set up in DDO, someone seems to think that they should be using Qstaffs on dex builds....

I'm not sure it makes as much sense to allow finesse to let you handle a maul.

I might be convinced it should allow you to handle all one-handed weapons, but do kind of like the idea the rapiers are special that way...

I cannot see finesse of a falchion, greataxe, greatsword or maul either... most likely however those centre'd on such would not be looking at Dex being their most viable stat however ...

Thus I felt simplicity in the scheme of coding would be finesse be just Dex "to-hit" substitute for Str and the weapon proficiencies one had would be the build's limiting factor.

Point being I'd not imagine too many builds running around finessing eSoS when the greater enticement for such would be to push up enough Str and milk it's attributes while finesse is typically used on builds where stats and feats are tight already as is.

I am trying to understand where Infinidibulum's OP is rooted from... they have dex based characters which melee obviously, but they must be lacking an understanding that the str based melee characters also give up much to persue it's ends... i.e. lower AC, Reflex saves, more skill mods...

[infinidibulum]

I do get that STR based characters give up something when they dump all of their points into STR. It doesn't seem to me to a very difficult trade off though (if you take the truck full of money, you can't have the hamburger).

I took several years off from DnD before I gave DDO a shot. Thanks for updating me on the new DnD developments.
I wasn't aware that this change had been made in the PnP rules. I should mention that (and maybe I'm just a grumpy grumpster who can't deal with change) what I have seen of the newer DnD incarnations doesn't impress me, generally.

I understand that there is meant to be a blanace of usefullness througout the stats. I just don't believe that the goal was achevied when it comes to STR. I suppose one might argue that if DEX was the basis of to-hit, everybody would automatically pump that stat as far as possible, since it is the base for several useful skills across classes. It may be that this bothers me less because I am used to it. I like my nimble, swashbuckling heros to outclass the brutish thugs.

With glancing blows, AC isn't as critical a factor as it is in PnP. I would have a player who wants to build a fighter consider that MAYBE a DEX of 16 might be worth it. Right now it seems as if the best course when building a fighter is to dump everything into STR and then work from there. There could still be a Weapon Finesse feat, giving +2 to-hit with all melee weapons, which would allow a player to either focus on STR and still make hits or allow a player to focus on DEX, take the feat and be massively accurate. Similarly, there could instead be a feat which allowed STR to be used as the attack base the way WF is used now.

It seems that DR has augmented AC quite a bit in this game. This makes being able to deal hefty damage even more important.

In DDO, there are enhancements which which power up the melee classes even more than in PnP. Of course, every class gets their own enhancements but if a player can click a button to get a temporary attack bonus, they aren't in such bad shape if they find that they're occasionally missing.

It wouldn't be such a bad thing to have a very dexterous Rogue who could land more blows than a clumsy Barbarian. With the the way the Intimidate skill functions, the Melee classes could still serve their role in a party as Tank, even if they didn't consistantly hit because they had focused extremely on STR. That their soloing efforts would be somewhat more challenging wouldn't really be all that bad. I am disenclined to believe that taking the to-hit bonus from STR would make this type of character unplayable or useless in any way.

I really think Turbine should try DEX to-hit out on a test server and get some reactions from players.

[Therigar]

Is this the right part of the forum to say that I believe DEX should be the basis for melee to-hit instead of STR?

Sure. But, why would you believe that? Is there something in your personal experience that suggests to you that real life dexterity is more important than real life strength in combat?

If there is, I'd suggest to you that your understanding is very limited. Real life combat sometimes favors dexterity and sometimes favors strength. Combat styles and, in the case of weapons combat, the weapons are designed differently depending on which is being emphasized.

There is a reason that boxing doesn't let flyweights into the ring with heavyweights. The strength advantage of the larger fighter would break through the defenses and cause damage even if the punches did not connect directly with the head or body. I've seen fighters knocked out who had their guards up and blocked the hit, but were hit so hard that they still went down.

Cleaving weapons like greatswords and battle axes relied on strength in order to deliver enough speed to the weapon to make it effective in combat.

OTOH, rapiers and spears can be used to tremendous advantage by someone with the training and dexterity to use them. I saw a demonstration once by Chinese acrobats using ~15 foot long spears where they were able to literally curve the spear's shaft so the point of the spear went around objects to hit the targets behind.

Both are good indicators of ability in combat and both are available in DDO. STR is the default. DEX can be had by taking a feat.

So, yes, it is the right place for your belief statement. But, it is already there -- for a number of very good reasons. Not the least of those is that it effectively mimics real life.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Just the fact that you think this game needs a "tank" that does little damage tells me you probably still have a lot to learn about this game. Try levelling a few characters to 20 then come back.

[Uska]

I do get that STR based characters give up something when they dump all of their points into STR. It doesn't seem to me to a very difficult trade off though (if you take the truck full of money, you can't have the hamburger).

I took several years off from DnD before I gave DDO a shot. Thanks for updating me on the new DnD developments.
I wasn't aware that this change had been made in the PnP rules. I should mention that (and maybe I'm just a grumpy grumpster who can't deal with change) what I have seen of the newer DnD incarnations doesn't impress me, generally.

I understand that there is meant to be a blanace of usefullness througout the stats. I just don't believe that the goal was achevied when it comes to STR. I suppose one might argue that if DEX was the basis of to-hit, everybody would automatically pump that stat as far as possible, since it is the base for several useful skills across classes. It may be that this bothers me less because I am used to it. I like my nimble, swashbuckling heros to outclass the brutish thugs.

With glancing blows, AC isn't as critical a factor as it is in PnP. I would have a player who wants to build a fighter consider that MAYBE a DEX of 16 might be worth it. Right now it seems as if the best course when building a fighter is to dump everything into STR and then work from there. There could still be a Weapon Finesse feat, giving +2 to-hit with all melee weapons, which would allow a player to either focus on STR and still make hits or allow a player to focus on DEX, take the feat and be massively accurate. Similarly, there could instead be a feat which allowed STR to be used as the attack base the way WF is used now.

It seems that DR has augmented AC quite a bit in this game. This makes being able to deal hefty damage even more important.

In DDO, there are enhancements which which power up the melee classes even more than in PnP. Of course, every class gets their own enhancements but if a player can click a button to get a temporary attack bonus, they aren't in such bad shape if they find that they're occasionally missing.

It wouldn't be such a bad thing to have a very dexterous Rogue who could land more blows than a clumsy Barbarian. With the the way the Intimidate skill functions, the Melee classes could still serve their role in a party as Tank, even if they didn't consistantly hit because they had focused extremely on STR. That their soloing efforts would be somewhat more challenging wouldn't really be all that bad. I am disenclined to believe that taking the to-hit bonus from STR would make this type of character unplayable or useless in any way.

I really think Turbine should try DEX to-hit out on a test server and get some reactions from players.

YOu want a dex based game make your own we are based on dnd here or you can just use finesable weapons and the finese feat

[donfilibuster]

I took several years off from DnD before I gave DDO a shot. Thanks for updating me on the new DnD developments.
I wasn't aware that this change had been made in the PnP rules. I should mention that (and maybe I'm just a grumpy grumpster who can't deal with change) what I have seen of the newer DnD incarnations doesn't impress me, generally.

The thing to note about newer d&d editions is the ability to customize.
d&d became a campaign building kit rather than a stand alone game as it was before.
2e customization was a mess and had stuff for traditional settings right in the core.
3e was made to allow customization and world building, promoting the publishers to make a wide range of settings.
Problem is there was no focus on the d&d traditional settings so 4e was made to address that.
But customization is still a big selling point of d&d and ddo is no different.

I understand that there is meant to be a blanace of usefullness througout the stats. I just don't believe that the goal was achevied when it comes to STR. I suppose one might argue that if DEX was the basis of to-hit, everybody would automatically pump that stat as far as possible, since it is the base for several useful skills across classes. It may be that this bothers me less because I am used to it. I like my nimble, swashbuckling heros to outclass the brutish thugs.

Your swashbuckling hero sacrifices damage, it comes with the usage of light weapons.
The damage from a dex build comes from twf and crits, not raw str or weapon size.

With glancing blows, AC isn't as critical a factor as it is in PnP. I would have a player who wants to build a fighter consider that MAYBE a DEX of 16 might be worth it. Right now it seems as if the best course when building a fighter is to dump everything into STR and then work from there. There could still be a Weapon Finesse feat, giving +2 to-hit with all melee weapons, which would allow a player to either focus on STR and still make hits or allow a player to focus on DEX, take the feat and be massively accurate. Similarly, there could instead be a feat which allowed STR to be used as the attack base the way WF is used now.

AC is not as important but not from differing from pnp but because eberron is high magic setting and thus we need better buffs to defend.
ddo can improve on that part without altering the whole system, there's plenty of ac spells and options to add from the books.
A bigger problem is that ddo plays like a mmo and force you to have a tank in the party, when in d&d party members are more versatile.

As for having fighters need dex to hit, you'd be ruling out all the juggernaut builds.
On d&d the fantasy hero is one to go against bulky monsters with thick hide, whereas plate and sword is more to fight soldiers.
Conan the barbarian would have the same chance vs. a dragon than a knight, and dex isn't a factor here.
Nor dwarves have much dex, nor half-orcs, only elves and humans, you need to balance the stats for this.
Down the dungeon it's kill or be killed, so str builds are an asset, but dex has its uses too.

It seems that DR has augmented AC quite a bit in this game. This makes being able to deal hefty damage even more important.

Again this is a result of a high power campaign, where you rely on magic weapons and defense buffs.
We have DR and AC as build options, along with concealment, etc. some players want to make AC into DR but that would cut from the customization options.
The argument that metal armor should provide DR only goes to some point, just as swords can't be bigger and bigger.
What we need is proper buffs and spells to compensate, and there's plenty in the books we can ask turbine to add.
I'm telling because dex is useful for AC and can't really say we should dump it just because DR is better, it's just a given option to make builds.

In DDO, there are enhancements which which power up the melee classes even more than in PnP. Of course, every class gets their own enhancements but if a player can click a button to get a temporary attack bonus, they aren't in such bad shape if they find that they're occasionally missing.

The enhancements system is a good replacement for prestige classes, in fact, can be viewed as a class building kit.
In PnP the DM allowed the PrC that would fit to the game, but you were stuck with those and the DM was encouraged to make custom ones relevant to the setting.
In DDO rather than give you a bunch of PrC to choose you can tweak your class to taste with the enhancements.
This would amount to the DM allowing you to make your own class builds.

It wouldn't be such a bad thing to have a very dexterous Rogue who could land more blows than a clumsy Barbarian. With the the way the Intimidate skill functions, the Melee classes could still serve their role in a party as Tank, even if they didn't consistantly hit because they had focused extremely on STR. That their soloing efforts would be somewhat more challenging wouldn't really be all that bad. I am disenclined to believe that taking the to-hit bonus from STR would make this type of character unplayable or useless in any way.

You are confusing something here, the barbarian may be clumsy but don't rely on training to land the blows.
Anyone can wave a weapon and whack the opponent, but takes strenght to break armor, hide and stances.
When dex comes into factor is when you need finnese weapons and such styles, usually with light weapons.
But this is based on training rather than on raw dex alone, and in d&d training is represented by feats.
Exotic weapons for example, represent special training you need to use them properly, not that ddo got it right of course.

I really think Turbine should try DEX to-hit out on a test server and get some reactions from players.

Dex builds with weapon finnese works fine atm, just suffer a bit from damage compared to maxxing str.
The damage for dex would come from the extra attacks of twf and using crit weapons, etc.
It costs a feat, whereas str builds don't have that, but then you can have low str and still do well.

[blametroi]

If you have a high dexterity then you should take the weapon finesse feat.This will substitute your to hit,for any light weapon according to your dexterity,rather than your strength.Heavier weapons will default to your strength automatically and it is a passive feat.

Yep, but be prepared to take a bunch of "you're a gimp" comments from people who don't think you should do it.

FWIW, I have WF on my rogue and monk, and will likely continue to do so. It's a fun way to play, IMO.

[Fishcatch22]

Maybe they could just put in blanket "auto-finesse" for the currently finesseable weapons, or if that proves too unbalancing just make Finesse a class ability for certain classes (like rogues).

[donfilibuster]

Maybe they could just put in blanket "auto-finesse" for the currently finesseable weapons, or if that proves too unbalancing just make Finesse a class ability for certain classes (like rogues).

Using your dexterity in combat takes training, anyone can whack a monster with strength alone.
The weapons you can use without training are simple weapons, not light weapons.

Many people want swashbuckler builds, and tend to picture rogues and bards fighting with light weapons.
But that's optional, a choice of build, rogue and bard alone are not known for their fighting expertise.
You have to take the feats to taste, in d&d feats represent training and customization allow finnese rogues, martial rogues, ranged rogues, etc.