Max DPS, not squishy rogue

[Therigar]

There is a neat thread on DPS that is worth reading.

In that thread I posted this:

Well, I appreciate your putting in these thoughts. But, it is a far cry from "lots of things." I mean, let's be honest, it is two things and you need a caveat to it as well.

We could list every type of undead and include every type of construct -- and that would be an impressive list. But, DPS discussions really are about end bosses. As we have seen thus far, that list is dramatically smaller -- and, in the one example provided melee DPS is noted as not being the main tactic. Against non-boss undead the drop off in DPS is mostly irrelevant -- certainly not an argument in favor of some other build.

And, I'm not sure that too many people have really worked very hard on the second part of your list. This thread isn't really the place for the discussion, but....

I am assuming that in the calculations the rogue is a max STR half-orc with no other stats really being important. How squishy is that half-orc if combined with min DEX to qualify TWF and remaining points in CON?

IMO that is something worth considerable discussion over in the rogue forum.

FWIW, changes to opportunist calculations are needed before we get too far into the discussion. Instead of the original assumption of 40%/90% we need the numbers run at 45%/90%. We also need to see the impact of removing SA against 100% fort.

What I am interested in are suggested builds that maintain the maximum DPS of the half-orc via max STR, give the full TWF line AND give the most possible HP.

We know that HP is the default in DDO for high DPS builds. So, with starting 20 STR and least DEX to qualify the full TWF line (assume no stat increases but include tomes if desired) -- what is the highest HP total that can be achieved? For now assume either no TR or 1st TR life only.

[Quikster]

There is a neat thread on DPS that is worth reading.

In that thread I posted this:



What I am interested in are suggested builds that maintain the maximum DPS of the half-orc via max STR, give the full TWF line AND give the most possible HP.

We know that HP is the default in DDO for high DPS builds. So, with starting 20 STR and least DEX to qualify the full TWF line (assume no stat increases but include tomes if desired) -- what is the highest HP total that can be achieved? For now assume either no TR or 1st TR life only.

Without working out the math for a pure rog, my 32 pt 13 rog/6 rngr/1monk would break 600 when buffed. That was max str, twf khop user.

Oh and to comment about the things a rog cant do in that thread, that rog and another one I had with much less hp but much more ac both tanked horoth on multiple occasions. While neither were the ideal horoth tank, both could do it.

[Therigar]

Well, I'm certainly not a genius -- I mean, look at my guild for goodness sakes.

But, I can see a 16 CON past life barbarian reaching 20 CON with +4 tome. Of course, that means having run epics on the barbarian life and pulling the tome so that it is available -- maybe not realistic for many players, but still inside the limits for this discussion.

With toughness taken only once that gets a pure class L20 half-orc rogue to 292 HP.

Adding in Minos, Draconic, GFL and CON boosts from +6 item and +2 ship buffs adds 138. A shroud item for 45 more gives a total of 475 before buffs of any type.

Easy buffs would include rage and double Madstone (even tho I have yet to pull a pair on any character on Orien ). That generates another 100 HP. So, I can see breaking the 600 HP number as realistic.

FWIW, tanking isn't exactly the goal state for a DPS build. I understand the hate tank role, but that is really one of the reasons the rogue's DPS is so high. With subtle backstabbing and other threat reduction the point is to avoid being the tank. So, IMO discussions about rogues not being able to tank are maybe a bit off track.

It is the squishy element that interests me because that seems to hold more weight. A barbarian with the exact same stats, etc. would have 120 more HP w/o ever including barbarian rages.

So, the discussion is about how squishy -- or not -- a L20 rogue is. How many HP are needed to be able to survive if aggro turns to the rogue?

[Artos_Fabril]

What I am interested in are suggested builds that maintain the maximum DPS of the half-orc via max STR, give the full TWF line AND give the most possible HP.

First Life:
20
15
14
8
8
6

Str bonuses +5 levels +6 item +3 exceptional +2 enhancement +4 tome +3 5 piece epic Abashai set = 43 standing
... +6 titan +2 ship +2 yugo +4 double madstone +4 orcish fury @<25%hp +2 rage pot +1 Hezrou cookie +2 TP potion: 66 max boost

Con 14 +6 item +3 exceptional +5 tome +3 epic 5 piece abashai set = 30
+2 yugo pot +8 double madstone +2 rage pot +2 ship +2 TP pot = 46 burst

120 base HP
20 Heroic Vitality
200 Con (30)
22 toughness
20 toughness enhancement
10 Draconic Vitality
40 SFL
20 toughness (item)
45 Shroud item
40 Yugo Pot
20 Ship
20 TP pot
577+ 80 double madstone
TR2 gets an extra 20 from +2 con

[transtemporal]

So, the discussion is about how squishy -- or not -- a L20 rogue is. How many HP are needed to be able to survive if aggro turns to the rogue?

Str-rogue is not too squishy, dex-rogue can be. My halfling twf-rapier dex rogue has 467 without madstone which is... not really enough for epics for my liking. He takes too much damage fighting velah for example. Any mobs that do area melee damage are pretty nasty.

When I TR him into str-based horc, he'll have 517 straight off the bat which is a much better number. I think I had him maxing out at 557 without madstone. I'm pretty happy with that. I was considering a TR into WF for 40 more hp but I already have epic fighting leathers made, and I like those too much.

[Malithar45]

When I TR him into str-based horc, he'll have 517 straight off the bat which is a much better number. I think I had him maxing out at 557 without madstone. I'm pretty happy with that. I was considering a TR into WF for 40 more hp but I already have epic fighting leathers made, and I like those too much.

Would love an explanation of this. I'm currently a 1st TR Human 20 Rogue. Worked out the stats and gear to have a standing 38 Str and 30 Con unbuffed. Achieved through:

18 Str
16 Con
+4 lvl up Str
+1 lvl up Con

+1 to each from Human enhancements, +7 Con, +6 Str, +3 exceptional in each, +3 Str Tome, +2 Con Tome, Toughness I-III, Toughness item, GFL, +3 Profane Str from Abishai 3 piece set.

What confuses me with what you're saying, is I'm at 497 unbuffed HP. The only way's left to get more Con or HP is...Superior False Life (Epic Dusk Heart, Epic Jerky, Epic Necklace of Venom), all of which are not good options, completionist, and 1-3 past lifes of Barbarian. +3/4 Con Tome is the only other way for me to get more HP. So, sure, lets assume you're counting that Tome. So now, where's the other 10 HP coming from to make up the difference from not having Toughness III? By being non-Human, you lose out on the opportunity of 30 HP (extra Con bracket and 10 HP from Toughness III.)

As I pointed out above, the 10 extra HP you could get is far less than optimal. So, where's it coming from?

On topic, looking purely at my own build fit into a h-orc, I'd end at 40 Str by not taking one of the Str enhancements, or 42 if I were to get my hands on a +4 Str tome. HP would be 467, or 487 was I to find a +3 Con Tome. A properly built DPS rogue that focuses on said DPS will not be squishy. Someone mentioned that Dex builds would naturally be a bit behind in the HP department, and I'd agree to a point. Due to having to split the stats, and still wanting some points in Str, you'd prolly lose out on a Con bracket or two.

[Therigar]

I suppose that everything depends on what you have available to you in past lives and what you are willing to sacrifice to achieve the goal of maximum DPS with least squishyness while still qualifying the TWF chain.

My two swags at this both use a 34 point previous life barbarian half-orc. First try goes with 20 STR, 15 DEX and 16 CON. Second goes with 18 STR, 15 DEX and 16 CON. INT, WIS and CHA are pure dump stats.

No stat increases in CON, only tomes and items.

120 base HP
020 Heroic Durability
010 Draconic Vitality
200 CON bonus from 18 base + 6 item + 4 tome + 2 exceptional
030 GFL
022 Toughness
020 Racial toughness enhancements
010 Barbarian past life
045 Shroud HP item
---
477 before any buffs
020 ship buff
040 Yugo pot
---
537 before party buffs or rages

The 500 number is reasonable and 600 with party buffs and rages seems doable. The 16 CON version has 20 points less.

[Artos_Fabril]

My two swags at this both use a 34 point previous life barbarian half-orc. [...]Second goes with 18 STR, 15 DEX and 18 CON. INT, WIS and CHA are pure dump stats.

If Str is not 20, you're not maxed out...
If you're going to prioritize Con over Str, you might as well go WF. An unsupressed Quourforged Docent of Battle gets you toughness and SFL on one item with other benefits. Sure, you're 4 points lower str maxed out, but if you cared that much, you'd prioritize 20 Str over 18 con to begin with.

I'm not saying that Str <20 is gimp. But you stated "Max DPS, not squishy rogue" in the title.

[Therigar]

If Str is not 20, you're not maxed out...
If you're going to prioritize Con over Str, you might as well go WF. An unsupressed Quourforged Docent of Battle gets you toughness and SFL on one item with other benefits. Sure, you're 4 points lower str maxed out, but if you cared that much, you'd prioritize 20 Str over 18 con to begin with.

I'm not saying that Str <20 is gimp. But you stated "Max DPS, not squishy rogue" in the title.

Yes, good point.

Since posting originally, however, there have been discussions elsewhere that make me wonder if a 20 point swing in HP might not be worth the 1 point loss in DPS from reduced STR.

Of course, I could plan on 4th life TR with 3 previous barbarian lives and 36 point build. That lets me take both 20 STR and 17 CON but at the cost of DEX. By that point I could probably count on +3 DEX tome and +3 exceptional CON item.

Still, you are correct that I'm not getting max DPS with 18 STR.

[transtemporal]

Would love an explanation of this.

Sorry bout that, catching up on threads!

Break down looks like this. And yes, I make sure I have all of those running all the time. I can even count on madstone to be running most of the time, except in tod.

120 base HP
20 heroic durability
220 Con (32)*
22 toughness
20 toughness enhancement
10 draconic vitality
30 GFL
20 toughness (item)
45 shroud item
40 yugo pot
20 large slot HP
20 DDO store pot
20 rage
===============
607

80 double madstone
===============
687

*Con 16 +7 item, +3 exceptional, +3 tome, +1 profane (litany), +2 ship = 32

[Malky]

I've thought of what the capstone could be traded for if you don't go pure, and the best result was Horc 18rog/2barb with active barb PL which gives
* 10% runspeed
* 10 hp from toughness class enhancement
* +1 PA over pur rogue
* 10str/8con rages that last long enough for most boss fights (3 rages with knost belt) + 3 mini rages if the fight is really long.

Basically that's 90 more hp over pure rogue when you need them (+10 from passive PL but pure rogues can have those too) + barb runspeed at the cost of some DPS (lower than a pure rogue on anything that doesn't have 100% fort, but higher in autocrit situations and for 100% fort mobs)

The one big downside is that you cannot use khopeshes due to barb PL taking the last feat (3x TWF / PA / IC / Toughness and PL) and since the build is more focused on str than a pure rogue it would benefit more from khopeshes. Martial proficiencies opens the scimitar way tho, so you could be one of the few rogues with scimitars plus you don't have to master's touch your heavy picks with that one. (Note : scimitars would be fancy, but rapiers and IC: pierce would be better due to heavy picks usage)

(Edit : **** IC: pierce sneaky smiley)

(Edit2 : Btw for those max HP dreamlists you can also add SFL from epic necklace of venom, +10 hp of GFL)

[Malky]

Just had a laugh about a completely unrealistic absolute max hp assassin III :

Warforged 18 rogue/2barb

CON
20 Base
05 Levelups
04 Tome
02 WF con enhancements
01 Barb con enhancement
07 Item
03 Exceptionnal con
03 Greater might of the abishai 5 set
01 Litany
02 Ship buff
-----
48 standing

HP (modified transtemporal's HP breakdown)
108 rogue levels
24 barb levels
30 3x barb passive PL
20 heroic durability
380 con
22 toughness (could possibly have more here, but well 6 toughness feats would be overkill )
50 toughness enhancements
10 draconic vitality
40 SFL
20 toughness (item)
45 shroud item
40 yugo pot
20 DDO store pot
20 rage
-----
829 standing

80 Rage
80 double madstone
40 PL mini rages stacking with barb rage
-----
1029 short term HPs


Gear 'breakdown'
Goggles : any
Head : Epic Helm of Frost
Necklace : any
Trinket : Litany of the Dead
Cloak : Epic Envenomed Cloak
Docent : Quorforged Docent of Battle (Toughness + SFL)
Belt : any
Gloves : Epic Charged Gauntlets
Bracer : Epic Scorched Bracers
Boots : Epic Boots of Corrosion
Ring 1 : +1/+2 exc. con ToD ring
Ring 2 : any
The 45hp shroud item can go in goggles, belt or necklace slots.

Well, technically it's possible to break 1k hp on an assassin III... **** useless but possible

(transtemporal> you have a "20 large slot HP" line in your HP breakdown, wazzat ? and does it conflict with the gear list just up there ?)

(Edit: typo)

[Xezno]

Str-rogue is not too squishy, dex-rogue can be. My halfling twf-rapier dex rogue has 467 without madstone which is... not really enough for epics for my liking. He takes too much damage fighting velah for example. Any mobs that do area melee damage are pretty nasty.

When I TR him into str-based horc, he'll have 517 straight off the bat which is a much better number. I think I had him maxing out at 557 without madstone. I'm pretty happy with that. I was considering a TR into WF for 40 more hp but I already have epic fighting leathers made, and I like those too much.

So you are saying that a dex based rogue gets less con by default? The only way a dex based rogue would have less HP than a Str based rogue is if the str based rogue used the feat he dosnt use for weapon finesse on an extra toughness. A dex based rogue should have the same hp, better AC and better reflex save = better survivability.

[Calebro]

Str-rogue is not too squishy, dex-rogue can be.

This statement makes zero sense.
Q: How does a different stat change a rogue's squishiness factor?
A: It doesn't. Not at all. Why? Because Str and Dex have zero relevance to HP, that's why.

One could argue that the Dex rogue is likely to have more HP than the Str rogue because of the ability to dump Str and use those points for Con instead.
I'm not saying that you should, but the argument is there.

[Malithar45]

40 yugo pot
20 large slot HP
20 DDO store pot
20 rage
+3 tome, +1 profane (litany), +2 ship = 32

Np on getting back. :P Ignoring the Rage, DDO Store pot, Yugo Pot, and ship buff, you'd be the same as me. I can now understand how you're 10 ahead with the additional Con bracket from the +3 tome and Litany, as well as the Large slot. Out of curiosity, where is that large slot? Just personally, but there's no room left in my gear set for a random gen item.

And speaking to the Yugo pot, I'm a bit lost on why its ALWAYS used. Sure, 40 HP is nice, and I carry some myself, but I've only used them in situations that they were called for (someone moved early in a hard Hound pug, after half the group was dead I found myself dragging her back to the mid; tank death in eChrono and hate comes to me). Is it really that common for other's to use these pots at the cost of -5% swing speed? It doesn't sound like a lot, but over the course of a long fight, while I've no numbers, I'd imagine the loss of attacks would be staggering, compared to the benefit you gain.

[Consumer]

About to TR my pl Barb and Fighter toon into a max DPS Rogue, have a +3 con tome in the bank and will be taking toughness to level.

Should have as soon as I cap:

16 con base
3 tome
6 item
2 rage
4 madstone
2 guild shrine
= 33 con

120 Rogue
220 Con
20 Heroic
10 Draconic
10 Barb Pl
20 toughness item
45 Greensteel
30 GFL
22 Toughness feat
20 Toughness enhancements
= 517 sustainable HP
40 double madstone
= 557 burst HP
40 Yugo pot HP with lowered attack speed
= 597 HP

After farming ToD rings and gear I should have an extra 4 con so mid 500s sustainable. Once I have the +3 exceptional (Kyosho's ring) I will be dropping toughness for quick draw.

Should be enough to keep me going.

[Kalatai]

About to TR my pl Barb and Fighter toon into a max DPS Rogue, have a +3 con tome in the bank and will be taking toughness to level.

Should have as soon as I cap:

16 con base
3 tome
6 item
2 rage
4 madstone
2 guild shrine
= 33 con

120 Rogue
220 Con
20 Heroic
10 Draconic
10 Barb Pl
20 toughness item
45 Greensteel
30 GFL
22 Toughness feat
20 Toughness enhancements
= 517 sustainable HP
40 double madstone
= 557 burst HP
40 Yugo pot HP with lowered attack speed
= 597 HP

After farming ToD rings and gear I should have an extra 4 con so mid 500s sustainable. Once I have the +3 exceptional (Kyosho's ring) I will be dropping toughness for quick draw.

Should be enough to keep me going.

Are you working the guild con buff into the sustainable hp???

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm nitpicking 20hp, but it's more of a matter of principle...what happens when you die in the middle of a quest? You going to go say to the group to hold on a sec so you can recall out and get your buff for sustained hp again? And if you've been waiting for a little while outside a quest or what not, are you going to say to the group: "Hold on a sec, going to go get ship buffs" because I can't survive without them?

Not a personal attack on you, have seen it several places.

And if I'm totally off base...whatevs.

[transtemporal]

So you are saying that a dex based rogue gets less con by default? The only way a dex based rogue would have less HP than a Str based rogue is if the str based rogue used the feat he dosnt use for weapon finesse on an extra toughness. A dex based rogue should have the same hp, better AC and better reflex save = better survivability.

I mean you end up putting more dex into the build than you would if you were just going str-based, and you still need some str and some int (to do standard rogue stuff), which doesn't leave a huge amount for con.

[transtemporal]

(transtemporal> you have a "20 large slot HP" line in your HP breakdown, wazzat ? and does it conflict with the gear list just up there ?)

Wowsers, thats a lot of hp.

I'm talking about a random loot drop with a large guild slot on it. I normally have one slot that I can hotswap, at the moment its boots. Which is fine for most content except for tod.

[transtemporal]

Ignoring the Rage, DDO Store pot, Yugo Pot, and ship buff, you'd be the same as me. I can now understand how you're 10 ahead with the additional Con bracket from the +3 tome and Litany

Actually without those 4 lines at the bottom which are sometimes variable, I was only at 507hp. I had to ditch the venom necklace (superior false life).

Out of curiosity, where is that large slot? Just personally, but there's no room left in my gear set for a random gen item.

Boots. This is generally my 'swap' slot due to madstone / tod boots.

Is it really that common for other's to use these pots at the cost of -5% swing speed? It doesn't sound like a lot, but over the course of a long fight, while I've no numbers, I'd imagine the loss of attacks would be staggering, compared to the benefit you gain.

Due to the fact that the penalty doesn't currently work, I don't think its a big issue.