An Interview with a WoW Player

[AZgreentea]

I recently had a friend go back to WoW. He had only been playing for about 3 weeks after an 8 month break from all MMO's due to health issues (and burnout, I'm sure). He had leveled his character to 10 and purchased a 3 month subscription. After speaking to him, I started taking notes. I dont think that Turbine and the community frequently get this kind of feedback on DDO and that I wanted to share it.

Before I begin, I have never played WoW, and I am not very familiar with gameplay there. Fatal Errors's comments are in blue. All things written in Blue are opinions belonging to Fatal Errors. I put my feedback and comments in Green. Fatal Errors is a min/maxer type player, if that helps you understand him a little more.

____________________________________________ Interview:

The conversation didnt begin as an interview, just me talking to my friend. After a few moments, I had the idea to post this in the forums, and I took some notes. I had been speaking with him about why he left DDO so the story begins with the things he found negative in DDO. They are summarized from my notes below:

They need to do something to make the learning curve easier for new players. One of my reasons for leaving was the complications my Girlfriend had in learning the game. I didnt struggle too much as I am a veteran MMO player and the Dice system in D&D is similar to many random number generators in other games.

I agreed that Korthos could use a little tweeking for new players. After a brief discussion about how he was lucky to have a GF to play MMO's with (instead of wife aggro) we moved on to the quest flow.

Ok so what I mean by no quest flow is, after Korthos you hit the harbor and see a billion golden goblets. As a new player you have no way of knowing the recommend level, the hardness of the dungeon, or if it is a chain unless you go to each one and open the dialogue. They need to have a way better flow and direction. Such as, say, you arrive to the Harbor from Korthos and there is a single person on map with a golden goblet you talk to them they welcome you to the harbor and tell you to go speak with "so and so" in the Leaky Dinghy, you then go there speak with him/her they advise you to talk to someone else. Then when you are done with say Harbor the last quest there need to direct you to say, take a letter to so and so in House J where you start your next branching set of quests level appropriate. Not having quests for that same level range in 4 dif houses and a new player not knowing where they are.

At this point I told him that the devs were working on creating an overall story for the game, but it wasnt really in place yet. You can kinda see it, but only if you know where too look. They tried the bulletin boards, but they were not well received by older players. He didnt seem to think that was the right solution.

They should have a color coding for the goblets such as golden for at your level, orange for one level above you, purple for 2 levels above you etc... and a set color for group/chain quests.

I told him I thought that was a very good idea. I dont think I have heard that suggested before. After that, we kinda moved into monsters.

There needs to be way more non instance content. It seems only the cities are non instance there needs to be large open space with baddies. The number 1 thing I would change about DDO if I had to pick one thing would be that monsters gave experience and dropped freaking loot especially in the wilderness zones so a casual or soloer can just farm them for exp and money. Even if the loot is vendor trash.

I had explained to him before (when he was still playing) about collectibles, but after more questioning I got the impression he wanted monsters to drop loot like the breakables do. He then spent a little time talking about player Mods to the game, and I told him those were mentioned as desirable by the devs as well. He also said that being able to lvl to 20 with any class/build solo would help attract new players. I gave him the speech about D&D inherently being a cooperative game, but he didnt seem that impressed, lol. I asked him how it works in WoW (since I have never played) and why getting to lvl 20 solo was so important and he said.

Well in WoW the game doesn't really begin until max level, at that point you start grouping to get the good dungeon gear, then start raiding to get the GREAT dungeon gear.

I told him I didnt think the current player base would like WoW like emphasis on solo play. We kinda slipped back into quest talk as he remembered something.

For me the only thing that was super frustrating was wasting 20 minutes on high frustration trying to find a switch for a door in another room. They need to put a way to find levers and such way easier or a guide system to the lever if you have already spent a set amount of time since discovering the locked door

I tried to convince him about the glories of ALT+Enter and DDOWiki, but what can you do? He wanted it ingame. lol

He wasnt fond of microtransaction systems, though he does add that DDO has the best one. He dosent like that not every class/race was included with VIP, though he likes that you dont have to buy new content with VIP ($40.00 for Cataclysm).

He used to be a big Everquest player (I think I have that right, I didnt write it down) and he didint like how they wouldnt listen to the player base. He liked how Blizzard listened to the player base and credited that to WoW success. I commented that WoW has a team of developers that focus on the one game while DDO has only gone F2P recently and Turbine has three titles. They simply dont have the manpower to implement them all at the same time. Talking about Guild Airships and other player ideas already in the game lead into what he liked about DDO.

What do I like? First off, the graphics are awesome. The class mechanics and being able to multiclass/splash is really awesome. Being able to TR is awesome. Guild ship buffs and guild vendors are awesome, and I do like the originality and feel of the quests.

After speaking a little while about how great a tree looked in DDO compared to WoW, I asked him what it would take for him to come back.

For me to come back, they would need a WAY WAY WAY better starting tutorial for new players, something optional to skip
which does one move/spell at a time and then like points at the dice and says, so here is your 28 sided dice, you rolled a 3 your skill check is 5 so that is why you failed. Also i would only come back if they made soloing much more viable.

That basically ended our conversation about DDO. It had been a few hours of intermittent IMing at this point, and we both had work to pretend to do.

_____________________________End

I hope my conversation with my friend is helpful to someone. I'm somewhat confident he will come back to DDO, but I dont know when that will be.

[Draccus]

Having played both WoW and DDO extensively, I think WoW is a great place for your friend based on these comments.

All games can't be all things to all players. Fortunately, we have lots of choices.

[NadgersFishtoaster]

It was interesting to read. Here are a collection of responses.

The complexity of DDO, with the underlying D&D3.5 rules, is in my humble opinion a selling point. It won't be everyone's cup of tea but that depth is part of what the D&D3.5 license bring and what attracts older gamers seeking a more complex game.

Monsters offering experience and loot more directly is actually quite close to the tabletop game but this can cause problems. In DDO people would work out the minimum effort needed to farm the maximum XP and make a grind out of it. In the tabletop game you can soon realise that slaughter and looting is rewarded, which is moderately corrupting ...

DDO probably does need a lot more tutorials as quite a few people wander in off the internet and become baffled by selecting spells, reading D&D3.5 stat blocks and all the other things people who have read the Player's Handbook find easier to deal with.

Advertising the Adventure Compendium would probably help with that Harbour feeling, allowing people to chart a better course through the profusion of adventures. However I am rather fond of a non-linear path and of being able to choose a direction.

[Xyfiel]

So he wants WoW with DDO graphics and quests. Another way to say it, he wants a more polished game, made for the masses. Maybe when we hit 5 million, we will have the money for that.

Many of us like not having a explorable world, or xp based on monsters. It is about the questing, not the traveling or spawn camping. Not that the other way is wrong, but no need to have every game the same either.

[Shacker]

Interesting post - thanks for documenting it. Here's my disclaimer before reading my comments -- I am a big DDO fan, and have also tried WOW on a couple occasions and am not the biggest fan of that game.

I think the best thing your buddy suggested is color-coding the golden quest chalices.........that could be helpful, especially for new players.

Personally, I think the "training" that takes place in DDO/Korthos is pretty good. In order to benefit from it, though, you actually have to click on (and read!) the hint boxes that pop up with the "!" symbol. This takes patience, and a lot of people don't have it. I have recruited several real-life friends to play DDO, and most of them have asked me questions that were definitely addressed with these hints......they just clicked the little "x" button on the first few hints and ended up disabling hints in the options menu. This meant that they eventually had mini-struggles with some of the basic functions of the game until one of their friends noticed something and educated them.

For the "quest flow" comments, once again I think that DDO has what he is looking for, it's just not as easy as he wants it to be. I believe the developers want people to explore through all of the non-instance content, get used to using the quest library system, and have a non-linear experience where you are free to do stuff at your own pace, especially after you leave Korthos.

I'm not sure why your friend didn't get what he wanted out of the explorer/wilderness areas of DDO --- you do get XP out of them (and can get quite a lot doing so), and you do get loot (you just have to find/kill the rares, or pick up collectables). Some of them are pretty massive, and you sometimes have to pass through them to get to where you are going for a quest. Also, I'm really glad that monsters don't just drop loot on the ground (like in Diablo 2 for example) where players compete on who can pick it up the fastest. While this might be OK for soloing, the current loot setup for DDO is much more equitable.

Also, the comments about the solo play are very telling for one of the distinctions between DDO and WOW. I think it is ridiculous that "the game really doesn't begin until end level"......and I hope that DDO does not get that way. Starting a new character and playing through the lower levels should be fun and interesting (it still is for me, mostly depending on who I am partying with). I hope that DDO keeps the emphasis on party play, it is one of the most dynamic and interesting aspects of the game in my opinion.

It sounds like DDO might not be the right game for your buddy, and while I want to have a huge player base for DDO, I don't think the devs should mold the game so it can be like other MMOs.

Thanks for reading!

[LA_MIKE]

WoW is a great place for your friend based on these comments.

A perfect response.

[Kominalito]

i like this game for all the wrong reasons, apparently.

[der_kluge]

Actually, the gold chalice system already kind of works like that. Maybe it needs to just scale a little differently.

A 1st level character entering Korthos won't have the option to talk to the questgiver for Gianthold, for example. Or in the Harbor, the guy won't give you the Invaders! quest in the Lobster, or Hiding in Plain Sight, for example. I think it only goes 2, maybe 3 levels above.

So, every chalice in the harbor is technically a valid option for him, since it's only showing viable options.

What they could do, is to scale it different. A 1st level character really only has any business doing 1st and 2nd level quests.

2nd through 4th could show level +2 quests.

5th through 10th could show level +3 quests.

11th+ could show level +4 quests.


If you are a TR, add 1.
If you are a double TR, add 2.


I definitely agree with the post about more help at the beginning of the game. There is a LOT of stuff to learn (scribing scrolls, LFM panel, party formation, raiding, yadda yadda yadda) that you have to just learn in the game.

To Turbin's credit, they've done a pretty decent job at improving some of that (e.g., death dialogue boxes).

[dunklezhan]

I do see what your friend is saying. I lean toward agreeing on several points.

First what I don't agree with:
1. Kill XP. No. This is a unique thing to DDO, and a change would fundamentally alter how the game plays.
2. Random loot from kills. Again, no, lets not make the gameplay more generic.
3. hints when you get stuck? Hell no. That's a good thing about DDO, it doesn't lead you by the nose when you're in an instance - solve the puzzle, or fail to progress.


Further on 1 & 2, while I am admittedly still getting used to the idea myself that I can't just bimble around doing my thing and level at the same time - on the other hand that really is a unique thing about DDO and I don't think it should be changed. If you want to solo exclusively, either be very good (i'm not) or play something else.

The stuff I agree with:
1. Colour coding chalices: good idea. Again this is something many other MMOs do, and it doesn't change the gameplay, it just makes it easier to focus your attention, and that's more player friendly, so therefore is a Good Thing.
2. Developing an overarching story - very good idea, I really do miss that when compared to WoW or DDO. DDO is very disjointed and that makes it very hard to immerse yourself.
3. Better tutorial - yes it could use this, definitely. The tips boxes may contain lots of things, but if they don't do it in a way conducive to actually delivering that information then an alternative should be looked at. Most other games, be they MMOs or single player RPGs, would do this either by a detailed - and importantly up to date - game manual, or by early quests and trainers who will explain/demonstrate what you need to do. In DDO there's very little in game, and very little directing you to the other resources - and most resources that there are, are player created so veracity cannot be assumed. Hell, half the stuff in game (tooltips, feat descriptions) are off, so veracity can't be assume there either!

But I add to other's comments: WoW is clearly more suited to your friends playstyle.

There are ways to make DDO more accessible and I think they should be considered. I realise some would see this as dumbing down. I say just because you had to learn everything the hard way is no reason others should. I mean, I hurt myself pretty bad as a kid by putting my fingers in a door hinge. Do I tell my kid not to do that now I have one? **** right I do. Some stuff he might have to learn the hard way but if I can educated him then I certainly will.

Having said that I wouldn't want to see anything that actually significantly changes gameplay. Which is not the same thing at all.

[samthedagger]

It was an interesting read, but I disagree with the blue man on many issues just because I don't want what WoW offers. I don't think WoW is a bad game, but I think DDO speaks to my preferences better. And that's okay. We don't need to convince WoW people to stay. They are free to try us out, and if they like it, great! If not, then I'm not sorry to see them go because apparently they weren't having too much fun in the first place.

I do NOT like farming mobs for XP and loot. It is boring and uninteresting to me. DDO discourages this since you can only do it in wilderness areas and only to a certain extent. I prefer rewards for completing quests. It makes the game objective-oriented.

Interestingly, DDO and WoW share something in common in that both become a different game once you hit cap. And if you want you can just hit cap and farm high-level raids and such until you get the all-important loot to make your character "the best." But in my opinion what sets DDO apart from most other MMOs is that the game doesn't begin at cap, rather it begins at level 1. That appeals to me. I don't want to wait for 79 levels and a dozen odd weeks to actually start enjoying a game.

Regarding the tutorial system, the blue man has some excellent suggestions, as does the green guy. We need more in-game tutorials for how to use things like the Adventure Compendium, the Social Panel, and more. The game documentation is virtually non-existent so it takes a lot of study on wikis and asking around in the Advice channel to figure out how to use these tools effectively. And just teaching how to navigate the menus like the Character page needs some work. I remember with fondness the first time I tried to change my spells. It took me far much longer than it should have to figure out 1) you had to be in a tavern and 2) you had to drag the spell you wanted into a slot and 3) you had to drag that slot to a hotbar. But all of this stuff could be taken care of in Korthos easily enough with the right tutorials.

As for soloing being viable, you can easily solo to 20 even if you are a new player. As long as you are VIP just sticking to Casual difficulty will get you plenty of XP for your first life without ever having to complete a quest twice. Might need to supplement with wilderness areas, but not too much. Maybe the blue man felt embarrassed to try "easy mode," but there is a reason it's there.

[Broldin]

There are a few good ideas such as color coding the quest markers and a better tutorial. I didn't have any issues with the tutorial, but I've got over a decade in MMOs and twice that in DnD, so I had a bit of an advantage. I can see where someone new to both may have issues.

One other thing that I would say really needs done is making the paths better! Give newer players a solid build to play until they learn the game. I've seen a number of people frustrated and ready to quit because they spent their first 3 weeks playing a character before realizeing it is useless and must be rerolled.

That aside, open-world, roaming spawns, watered/dumbed down mechanics... lacking these things is what makes DDO the game it is. Add them in and it's just WoW without chartoon graphics.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Having played both WoW and DDO extensively, I think WoW is a great place for your friend based on these comments.

All games can't be all things to all players. Fortunately, we have lots of choices.

Yup, there is a reason I'm here and not playing WoW.

Oh, and interestingly there used to be a storyline to walk you through the harbor but it kind of got disrupted when they pulled out the lower harbor and created Korthos.

[Ralmeth]

This was an interesting read and have a couple of comments to add:

New Player Tips:
I do agree that it would be helpful for newer players to have a bit more guidance. I really liked the very first quest where the NPCs speak to you. I thought this was more affective than reading hints, so more of this could be helpful. For a better introduction to the harbor, perhaps an optional tutorial quest could be made available for the boat-ride to Stormreach, where you have fun on a quest (perhaps getting attacked by pirates!) while a NPC chats with you about what it will be like in Stormreach and what to do once you get there.

Non-Instanced Areas / Soloing to Cap / etc:
IMHO the best part of D&D and DDO is going on fun, exciting adventures with fellow adventurers. While you are leveling up if you stay at or near the level of the quest, you'll be at a good challenge level, with more experienced players able to handle quests above their level and if you're less experienced just go at or slightly under your level. So it sounds like you're friend may be better suited to WOW simply because of this.

[protokon]

So he wants WoW with DDO graphics and quests. Another way to say it, he wants a more polished game, made for the masses. Maybe when we hit 5 million, we will have the money for that.

Many of us like not having a explorable world, or xp based on monsters. It is about the questing, not the traveling or spawn camping. Not that the other way is wrong, but no need to have every game the same either.

This is kind of how I felt myself reacting to the OP. your friend has a biased opinion due to playing WOW first, and I myself have a biased opinion due to playing DDO first (my older brother convinced me to try it with him)

I lasted three weeks before I quit. as a complete, blind newb i had complaints of the exact opposite of OP's friend:

-the entire open world was big. too big, I didn't like exploring an entire world full of monsters, and rarely seeing any other players.

-the spawn camping was boring. who wants to kill the same monster over and over in the same spot until you level up? I much prefer the feeling of running through an obstacle course slaying monsters as I pass them at high speed in DDO.

-the idea of soloing most of the content to cap, as a newb, was daunting. I was supposed to cap my toon with virtually no interraction with other players, not really learning the game mechanics except for what I pick up on, and expect experienced players to take me into complex raids? not to mention how boring it is to play a brand new game with no one else to share experiences with. might as well play an off-line game.

My feelings on the beginner area in DDO are quite the opposite - I find all the little pop-up hints to be annoying, and I can imagine a brand new player would feel the same - hence probably why they would simply exit out of them instead of reading the tips.

-korthos is also littered with various NPC's that you can talk to for various tips on the game, and the beginner tutorial and storyline stops after misery's peak. from then on, in the harbor your kind of on your own instead of being on one long on-going storyline.

..As for the beginner area (korthos) and the harbor, virtually all content in those area other than 2 quests (which both have level restrictions) are lvl range 1-4 content. Odd that it would be too hard to figure out where to go once you get there to me.

[cpito]

Well in WoW the game doesn't really begin until max level, at that point you start grouping to get the good dungeon gear, then start raiding to get the GREAT dungeon gear.

I tried a trial account on WoW once upon a time and I found this mindset to be a little boggling. At the request of the friend who already played, I rolled up a priest. I was then set forth to level myself up mostly solo. The few times we did group, I was often reprimanded for fighting instead of just healing as I would only be required to heal at endgame. So, let me get this straight... I have to learn how to kill stuff to get to cap at which point I'm no longer allowed to kill stuff? /facepalm

For me the only thing that was super frustrating was wasting 20 minutes on high frustration trying to find a switch for a door in another room. They need to put a way to find levers and such way easier or a guide system to the lever if you have already spent a set amount of time since discovering the locked door

How about "backspace"?

[Nandos]

I would say LOTRO would be the better alternative to WoW for your buddy. It pretty much has everything he is asking for (color coded quest indicators, large open areas, loot/xp from monsters etc). They have revamped the starting areas several times in it too, to make it easier for new players.

[SardaofChaos]

It should be noted that there is almost an overarching story here. It's just that if you don't read everything, or have a bad memory, you won't notice it. It's the kind of storytelling that relies on the reader to make the connections instead of holding them by the hand and pointing everything out for them. While there are people who appreciate that, I can't read books that do that because it feels so dumbed down.
Further note on that: some of the story can't even be accessed at all without the right stat/skill scores, usually bluff, wisdom, or intelligence.

[Bladedge]

Well in WoW the game doesn't really begin until max level, at that point you start grouping to get the good dungeon gear, then start raiding to get the GREAT dungeon gear.

84 levels worth of tutorial material... players over there should just ask for skip tutorial button when the game starts at 85. Wait that wont work then they will complain that the new players don't know how to play the game cause they skip the tutorial.

[Kilnedric]

I don't know if I should admit this here, but I actively play both DDO and WoW.

/duck

I totally understand what he's talking about going from Korthos to the Harbor. I like the idea of color coding the chalices, based on level, and whether a full group is recomended. As others have noted, the information does exist, but it's not the most obvious stuff to find to somebody new to the game without somebody to guide them. Along the tutorial idea, I had an idea awhile ago for MMOs in general, that could be implemented here perhaps: actually making in-game quests to guide you through abilities, and even the interface to some degree. So say, there could be a quest to open your compendium, find <insert quest here>, and run it. Or a quest to join a group through the LFG interface. Minor rewards for educating you! This is how we learn.

I like the way DDO does exp, because it makes it possible to kill as little as you can and still get exp, if that's what you want. So, I don't think that can change. I think DDO is plenty soloable as it is with hirelings. (I'm defining "solo" here as not wanting to group with another actual player.)

All MMOs have maximum-level vs. non-maximum-level, if you will. The trick is to make both phases appealing. I think both WoW and DOO do a good job at the non-maximum-level, but that's just my opinion. (I could give examples of some quest chains that impress me in WoW, but I don't think it matters.) I haven't gotten to level 20 in DDO yet, so I can't compare max-level play yet. It sure sounds like many people here are unhappy with it. Many people don't like raiding in WoW too, so maybe both games have more to learn in this phase.

To sing the praises about what DDO does well:
I love D&D, so I'm sold already.
Muliclassing makes the head spin with possibilities, which is fun.
The F2P/Microfinance system is interesting and I like it.
Frequency of small new-content updates is nice.
Quest-based exp is cool.

/cast Resist Energy: Fire to avoid the flames!

[diamabel]

They should have a color coding for the goblets such as golden for at your level, orange for one level above you, purple for 2 levels above you etc... and a set color for group/chain quests.

While that would be a valid way to mark quests as level appropriate it won't help a new player to recognize easy or hard quests. Some quests may surprise the players with monsters with certain immunities or abilities. Certain builds may have it easier because of class skills, other builds will require a certain equipment level (special weapons, buffs, etc.).

There needs to be way more non instance content. It seems only the cities are non instance there needs to be large open space with baddies. The number 1 thing I would change about DDO if I had to pick one thing would be that monsters gave experience and dropped freaking loot especially in the wilderness zones so a casual or soloer can just farm them for exp and money. Even if the loot is vendor trash.

I played WoW for 3 years (from vanilla to somewhere mid BC). While the "open world" was interesting and exciting for explorers (at least for a certain time), I don't miss getting XP or loot for killing/camping monsters. In fact I prefer the way DDO handles this. It was annoying if certain areas were overrun by a large number of players. Something that happens after an addon is released. You were practically competing with other players for killing monsters (for quests and/or xp) or raw materials for crafting. Dunno how things have changed since WotLC and the phasing thing.

Well in WoW the game doesn't really begin until max level, at that point you start grouping to get the good dungeon gear, then start raiding to get the GREAT dungeon gear.

That's an attitude found often among players of MMOs. To each his own. For me the fun lies in the journey and that's why I expect the "fun" to start at level 1. Dunno, the WoW experience turned out to be more guided. Do content X and collect a tier set X for your class/role and then move to content Y and collect tier set Y and then ... and then ... . In the end I was fed up by the whole gear aquisition thing. Not that I don't like improving a build or getting better equipment, but it was too much and left no real choices to a player. In DDO you have at least more freedom concerning gear and don't have to replace equipment that often.

For me the only thing that was super frustrating was wasting 20 minutes on high frustration trying to find a switch for a door in another room. They need to put a way to find levers and such way easier or a guide system to the lever if you have already spent a set amount of time since discovering the locked door

People have different expectations. I grew up with CRPGs and part of the fun was the dungeon crawling with your "party" and investigating secrets and searching for hidden passages. Only the static nature of the dungeons makes things boring with time. Well, different expectations and preferences.


It's always good to get feedback from different people on a certain subject, because "old farts" don't always see what issues new players/newcomers might have. Giving new players a better "welcome" by providing better orientation to new players, especially during the starter area, is a good thing. Perhaps it might help providing some more optional tutorial quests (similar to the initial tutorial quest) where new players will be presented different lessons concerning general game concepts and/or an introduction to their class. If need be even with asistance of some NPCs. By the way where did the original tutorial quests go? The ones that we had on release?