New DPS chart

[Consumer]

That includes red scale though right? You don't think that's inflationary considering most hard to kill mobs are immune to fire?

In the old calc I had a Fighter 12/Rogue 7/Monk 1 that could hit 598 DPS without redscale and still capable of breaking an 80 TWFing AC. I'll plug the numbers in the calc tonight and see how it holds up.

Considering the number is for endgame trash a lot of epic mobs are not immune to fire. More importantly in epics you are getting extra burst damage from it on autocrit mobs. For trash and 0% fort this makes it more useful than the marilith chain and litany imo.

Rogues are also pigeon holed into light armour for the majority of content and marilith chain / epic marilith chain is medium armour - http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Armor:Marilith_Chain. Redscale comes in what ever. Using different gear sets for different toons results in people calling you biased.


Personally I dislike 7 Rogue splits. If you are going Rogue go full ******, with the 7 Rogue split you're still forced to play like a pure Rogue, you just lose much of the DPS. It's imo another jack of all trades, master of none builds.

[NaturalHazard]

Keep in mind that these calculations assume that all builds can always hit on a roll of 2 or higher. For lower-strength classes like rangers or rogues, this may not always be the case.



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why are rogues and rangers lower strength classes? Sure they dont have a barbs rage, and they dont have the fighters strength enhancements. But the ranger does have rams might, which adds 2 to str just as much as the +2 from the fighter enhancement. True if your talking about to hit, rogues are a medium BAB cless. Rangers how ever are a high BAB class just like fighters. True fighters get the kensai enhancements, rangers are a little behind but they can get the racial enemy enhancements, its not as good but it does help. So I dont understand why you called rangers a low STR class? and to an extent rogues? Not all rogues and rangers are str and con dumping drow with weapon finesse max dex and named dritzz or something that sounds like that. A lot of rangers I come accross max out str and so do rogues. And they often have higher str than a lot of paladins and monks who you didnt incluede in the low str catergory.

[Consumer]

Ok I'll be the first to admit that I am still relatively new to the game (7mo) and don't know everything but please explain to me how barbs use clickies effectively for any extended duration? If you're counting the 1 you can use before you rage that lasts a minute or so that's ridiculous.

Yes, I can displace myself for 30 seconds or get 1 minute of titan's grip etc but once I rage I won't be refreshing anything. Can't use scrolls in combat, can only use a few guild pots while raged etc.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Item:Madstone_Boots - you can't cast while madstoned and all DPS toons use the boots

A rogue can do close to max dps and still have UMD high enough to heal scroll themselves (other classes can do the same), a barb has to use silver flame pots and take a -10 to all stats and 50% movement speed debuff.

A barbarian can get UMD sure, but you can't UMD anything while raged so it's all between combat, unraged (which means you just gave up 200 or so HP to be able to cast) and you also have a limited number of rages meaning that dismissing them to cast something is not a good idea in many cases. Granted a TR with 8 rages has more than enough to de-rage a couple of times between shrines safely.

A DPS Rogue has to switch gear much like anyone else to reach a high enough UMD to no fail cast heal scrolls. In a DPS thread self healing is generally ignored for the most part because a DPS toon runs with a healer whenever possible. Divines cast prayer (luck) increasing DPS for classes without divine favor. A DPS Rogue is also madstoned whenever possible preventing casting just like the Barb.

Barb DR at end game is is great in situations with a ton of mobs attacking, marginal in boss tanking and worthless in epics due to low number of incoming attacks and massive damage per hit. I'm sorry but sucking off 10pts of damage from the 200 I just took from a single melee attack isn't something I rely on to keep me standing. It makes a big difference when Im soloing something like Sins elite but in a tanking situation it doesn't do enough to make a big difference imo.

Play a Barb then a Fighter, the difference between the damage taken is very obvious. The massive amounts of easy HP the Barb gets compared to the Fighter who is sacrificing DPS to take extra toughness feats and enhancements compounds this.

I also notice you chose to ignore the fact that barbs do 200-600 damage to themselves per minute with Frenzy+Death frenzy. I get what? 10 pts of DR yet do 2d3 damage to myself per swing.

What other class has to do a min of 200 damage per minute to themselves to hit their max dps? That alone is a big enough drawback, it's an extral heal scroll required to keep us up, extra healing amp required to offset the self damage yet I am still not doing as much DPS as the guy standing next to me?

Come on.

I ignored it because it is a non issue. If a Bard can keep up a Barb no problem then I'm sure the divines that most people run most quests with will have no problem healing through the mall amount of damage you inflict to yourself. It has certainly never been an issue for me.


I also forgot about Barbs movement speed bonuses for a second, they are very useful to have.

[grodon9999]

Considering the number is for endgame trash a lot of epic mobs are not immune to fire. More importantly in epics you are getting extra burst damage from it on autocrit mobs. For trash and 0% fort this makes it more useful than the marilith chain and litany imo.

Rogues are also pigeon holed into light armour for the majority of content and marilith chain / epic marilith chain is medium armour - http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Armor:Marilith_Chain. Redscale comes in what ever. Using different gear sets for different toons results in people calling you biased.

Very valid point, but I don't think either Redscales or Marilith chain should be considered a standard because it's not. I'm sticking to my less than 1% of the people running epics have them, I'd go as far as saying 1% of people running HARD epics have them. I not talking about Bigtop, I'm talking OoB, DA, etc . . . the quests that are almost as hard as Elite Amrath.

Trash is trash and even in epics they die fast enough so I don't see the point in focussing on them. I'm way more concerned with how fast somebody will drop Sulu in Elite ToD than some ogre in EVoN1.

Personally I dislike 7 Rogue splits. If you are going Rogue go full ******, with the 7 Rogue split you're still forced to play like a pure Rogue, you just lose much of the DPS. It's imo another jack of all trades, master of none builds.

But it can stun! Stun your own targets and SA the hell out of them. Rangers/rogue/paladins can't gets a useful DC, kensai can. Regarding bossed only one toon's gonna have aggro so why not take advantage of that with more SA?

If you're not going pure fighter, for evasion or whatever, the fighter levels beyond 12 don't do that much for you. Kensai is a middle-loaded PRE, though not as bad as Tempest, and peaks at 12. Capstone is nice but if you're not going pure you get so much IMHO with the rogue levels than you would with more fighter.

[grodon9999]

why are rogues and rangers lower strength classes? Sure they dont have a barbs rage, and they dont have the fighters strength enhancements. But the ranger does have rams might, which adds 2 to str just as much as the +2 from the fighter enhancement. True if your talking about to hit, rogues are a medium BAB cless. Rangers how ever are a high BAB class just like fighters. True fighters get the kensai enhancements, rangers are a little behind but they can get the racial enemy enhancements, its not as good but it does help. So I dont understand why you called rangers a low STR class? and to an extent rogues? Not all rogues and rangers are str and con dumping drow with weapon finesse max dex and named dritzz or something that sounds like that. A lot of rangers I come accross max out str and so do rogues. And they often have higher str than a lot of paladins and monks who you didnt incluede in the low str catergory.

Because they are. It's just true. No rage, no powersurge, no enhancements.

[Consumer]

why are rogues and rangers lower strength classes? Sure they dont have a barbs rage, and they dont have the fighters strength enhancements. But the ranger does have rams might, which adds 2 to str just as much as the +2 from the fighter enhancement. True if your talking about to hit, rogues are a medium BAB cless. Rangers how ever are a high BAB class just like fighters. True fighters get the kensai enhancements, rangers are a little behind but they can get the racial enemy enhancements, its not as good but it does help. So I dont understand why you called rangers a low STR class? and to an extent rogues? Not all rogues and rangers are str and con dumping drow with weapon finesse max dex and named dritzz or something that sounds like that. A lot of rangers I come accross max out str and so do rogues. And they often have higher str than a lot of paladins and monks who you didnt incluede in the low str catergory.

Max sustained Str:

Fighter - 62
Barb pure - 72/76 (pl B)
Barb 18/1/1 - 68/72 (pl B)
Blitz - 72/76 (pl B)
Rogue - 50
Ranger - 52

I would guess it's the difference of around 20 Str endgame that makes them low Str classes.

[Consumer]

Very valid point, but I don't think either Redscales or Marilith chain should be considered a standard because it's not. I'm sticking to my less than 1% of the people running epics have them, I'd go as far as saying 1% of people running HARD epics have them. I not talking about Bigtop, I'm talking OoB, DA, etc . . . the quests that are almost as hard as Elite Amrath.

Trash is trash and even in epics they die fast enough so I don't see the point in focussing on them. I'm way more concerned with how fast somebody will drop Sulu in Elite ToD than some ogre in EVoN1.

As always for each fortification the gear set is changed to suit the mobs you fight.

The calcs are posted for potential DPS rather than I want to be average DPS.

But it can stun! Stun your own targets and SA the hell out of them. Rangers/rogue/paladins can't gets a useful DC, kensai can. Regarding bossed only one toon's gonna have aggro so why not take advantage of that with more SA?

If you're not going pure fighter, for evasion or whatever, the fighter levels beyond 12 don't do that much for you. Kensai is a middle-loaded PRE, though not as bad as Tempest, and peaks at 12. Capstone is nice but if you're not going pure you get so much IMHO with the rogue levels than you would with more fighter.

~80 DPS, 2 extra haste boosts, 4 feats, higher HP, higher DCs e.c.t.

Cannot believe people go pure, what a bad decision!



Due to the fact that it is SA damage rather than double strike or other it is impossible to give complete comparisons between the two and as I said it is only my opinion.

[NaturalHazard]

Max sustained Str:

Fighter - 62
Barb pure - 72/76 (pl B)
Barb 18/1/1 - 68/72 (pl B)
Blitz - 72/76 (pl B)
Rogue - 50
Ranger - 52

I would guess it's the difference of around 20 Str endgame that makes them low Str classes.

How does a pure fighter get 10 more max sustained str over a ranger? Im not doubting what your saying I just dont know where its comming from?

[Consumer]

How does a pure fighter get 10 more max sustained str over a ranger? Im not doubting what your saying I just dont know where its comming from?

Ranger - 2 rams might
Fighter - 3 enhancements and 8 power surge

Guild shrines to balance final score.

[grodon9999]

As always for each fortification the gear set is changed to suit the mobs you fight.

The calcs are posted for potential DPS rather than I want to be average DPS.

Yes, but people see an inflated 600 DPS number without knowing the context of what's behind it and they jump to stupid conclusions. My point regarding redscale is it doesn't help against anything that's actually hard to kill, is any boss vulnerable to fire? Keeping it in the calc gives inflationary numbers.

Some builds gain a lot more from it that others as well thus painting an inaccurate picture of one build relative to another. TWF fighters and rangers get a hell of a lot more out of it compared to a THFing barb, thus painting them in a bad light.

~80 DPS, 2 extra haste boosts, 4 feats, higher HP, higher DCs e.c.t.

Cannot believe people go pure, what a bad decision!

It's called a trade-off. Compared to evasion, full UMD, and picking the occasional lock. You are right about it playing more like a rogue than a fighter, but it can STUN!

[Consumer]

Yes, but people see an inflated 600 DPS number without knowing the context of what's behind it and they jump to stupid conclusions. My point regarding redscale is it doesn't help against anything that's actually hard to kill, is any boss vulnerable to fire? Keeping it in the calc gives inflationary numbers.

Some builds gain a lot more from it that others as well thus painting an inaccurate picture of one build relative to another. TWF fighters and rangers get a hell of a lot more out of it compared to a THFing barb, thus painting them in a bad light.

That's why I put the explanation above the chart and made sure I bolded trash and explained why the other forts were not included.

[NaturalHazard]

Ranger - 2 rams might
Fighter - 3 enhancements and 8 power surge

Guild shrines to balance final score.

cheers thanks, haha I forgot all about the power surge and its the biggest factor , is it possible to get an even higher str if you splash fighter-ranger- barberian?

[grodon9999]

cheers thanks, haha I forgot all about the power surge and its the biggest factor , is it possible to get an even higher str if you splash fighter-ranger- barberian?

Yeah, but you'll get more DPS splashing rogue.

Tempest II with 7 rogue levels can put out some very nice DPS. Keep in mind with 100% off-hand procs you get more sneak-attack as well as more of an advantage from anything that adds damage per swing. Rangers see the most out of ravager set, bard song, red scale, etc . . . because of the number of swings.

My friends TR'd his gimpy 28-point first-toon rogue into a 12/7/1 with the rogue PL feat and he absolutely destroys stuff. In a 3 minute fight he's a god

[NaturalHazard]

Yeah, but you'll get more DPS splashing rogue.

Tempest II with 7 rogue levels can put out some very nice DPS. Keep in mind with 100% off-hand procs you get more sneak-attack as well as more of an advantage from anything that adds damage per swing. Rangers see the most out of ravager set, bard song, red scale, etc . . . because of the number of swings.

My friends TR'd his gimpy 28-point first-toon rogue into a 12/7/1 with the rogue PL feat and he absolutely destroys stuff. In a 3 minute fight he's a god

I just hate how the tempest 3 is just so gimpy!!! It really needs more added to it, I dont know why they have nerfed it so bad? haha sorry for going off topic here.

In non epic content my gimp tempest ranger 3 with monk splash duel weilding vorpal kama's in wind stance often leads the kill count. Hehe once I had a half orc barb rage at me "will stop f****** vorpaling everything and let me get a few swings in f.f.s? yes hes gimped hella gimped, if only you could vorpal in epic :P. lolz.

[Xyfiel]

Evidently my Ninja Lich who is dex/wis/AC/shortsword based only does 250 or so dps (didn't calculate stunning fist and handwrap/dps gear setup for epic). Then again, I am a freakin NINJA LICH! I can self heal, and stealth, and firewall, and beat you down with my undead arms, all while laughing maniacally.

Stick that in your DPS pipe and smoke it.

[Vanshilar]

For shroud? No, i Wouldn't waste the plat on it. For Epic? When your sitting on millions of plat on a server where plat can't actually buy anything why not drink pots that give you +1 to-hit/damage? I drink yugo-pots like they are coolaid. Do I think the 1 point matters one way or the other in a DPS calc? Not at all, I just found it funny what and what is not considered a standard.

Assuming 1/2 the people having Red Dragon scale is nuts, I'd be surprised if 1% of the people actively running epics have this. Same with Marilith chain, Epic Bloodstone, or anything else giving a higher than 6 seeker. A normal Bloodstone should be assumed. I've well over 100 dragons on 4 toons and I've maybe had 7 scales drop in my name total.

ESoS is way more common than Red Scale and an unfortunate necessity for THFers but not all have it. All are working on it and will eventually have it so it should be calced as such. All TWFers should be working towards Mineral II and Lighting IIs so that's more than reasonable.

I'm just taking issue with Consumer's statement with "600" DPS being the magic number for a "DPS" toon because that number is inflated do to redscale being in the calcs. It's very rare and most of the hard-to-kill stuff in the game is immune to fire.

The OP's chart, once corrected for the tempest speed variance, looks good, accurate, based on stuff most players will be able to get in a few months of active play (maybe not the Claw set and epice Marilith chain, but everything else can be gotten in 40ish shrouds/ToDs and other raids). I roll with a few ESoS equipped barbarians who have the 500ish DPS and they absolutely destroy things, to not have them classified as "DPS" is absurd. They're REAL DPS when DPS matters the most is excellent, they kill stuff quickly and efficiently.

My standard wasn't based on "whether or not people running epics would have this." It was based on "what you can expect to have after several months of frequent raiding/epics." It doesn't include epic bloodstone, epic marilith chain, or even litany (since it assumes the trinket slot is bloodstone). You can see the full list of equipment in that link in my post earlier.

Sure, ESoS may be more common than red scale. Red scale is more common than epic marilith chain. I'm using an equipment level point that's not quite "max DPS" but one that's "this is what you can realistically plan to have." As I said, quite a few people in my guild have it, and it's something that they factor into their builds. I don't know if that's considered a statistical fluke or not for other servers. The helm of the red dragon for example hasn't dropped for us much but apparently has been dropping quite a bit for other raiding guilds on Orien (what? there are other raiding guilds on Orien? But I kid ), and is included as well. Hence you see that generally I'll end up with DPS values in the low-to-mid 500s (except for rogues, but max DPS vs 0% fort when they don't have aggro is their specialty).

why are rogues and rangers lower strength classes? Sure they dont have a barbs rage, and they dont have the fighters strength enhancements. But the ranger does have rams might, which adds 2 to str just as much as the +2 from the fighter enhancement. True if your talking about to hit, rogues are a medium BAB cless. Rangers how ever are a high BAB class just like fighters. True fighters get the kensai enhancements, rangers are a little behind but they can get the racial enemy enhancements, its not as good but it does help. So I dont understand why you called rangers a low STR class? and to an extent rogues? Not all rogues and rangers are str and con dumping drow with weapon finesse max dex and named dritzz or something that sounds like that. A lot of rangers I come accross max out str and so do rogues. And they often have higher str than a lot of paladins and monks who you didnt incluede in the low str catergory.

Let me see if I can get the class-based to-hit bonuses right off the top of my head (I'll probably forget a few):
Barbarians: +8 str from rage, +2 str from capstone, +2 str from frenzy, +4 str from death frenzy, for total of +16 str or +8 to-hit, with additional +2 str (+1 to-hit) if using the FB set, +2 str (+1 to-hit) from power rage if halforc
Fighter: +3 str from enhancements, +8 str from kensei power surge, for total of +11 str, or +5-6 to-hit, +2 to-hit from kensei <weapon> mastery, +3 to-hit from feats, for a total of +10-11 to-hit
Ranger: +2 str from ram's might for +1 to-hit, possibly +2 if take both favored enemy attack enhancements, for a total of +1-3 to-hit
Rogue: possibly +4 to-hit from sneak attack enhancements, for a total of +0-4 to-hit

Basically rangers and rogues are in a separate league for to-hit compared with barbarians and fighters. You're looking at a difference of somewhere between 4-11 to-hit in terms of what they'd have (depending on the condition). and each to-hit is potentially about 4-5% of your DPS. This won't matter much though except for epics and harder raids. Even if rangers and rogues are strength-based builds, remember that barbarians and fighters are strength-based builds as well, so classifying them as low-strength classes is referring to that they don't get many bonuses to strength and thus by extension, to your to-hit.

Trash is trash and even in epics they die fast enough so I don't see the point in focussing on them. I'm way more concerned with how fast somebody will drop Sulu in Elite ToD than some ogre in EVoN1.

Well I'm assuming the bosses have fire resistance, meaning that the builds aren't getting any DPS bonus from dragon stuff in the 50% fort situations. They do get it in the 0% fort and auto-crit though, because those are for trash, which generally doesn't have any type of resistance (or at least, that's the assumption used in the DPS calcs). Otherwise you'd have to calculate that sometimes you go up against tieflings when you use lightning 2, etc.

Basically what you're saying here is that you personally prioritize the 50% fort numbers over the others, which is fine. In fact it all depends on your individual take on what's important for you. For example, rogues' low DPS vs 100% fort may or may not be important, in that the time it is most often occurs is during Shroud farm runs (although it also does come up in VoN), but during those runs, low DPS vs portals is an inconvenience, but it won't make or break the raid. Having low DPS during part 4 or part 5 though is more likely to make or break the raid. So you can also take the position of "low rogue 100% fort DPS? Doesn't matter." That's why multiple situations are laid out there, so that each person can see what the numbers are for what they consider to be important. You may consider auto-crit DPS to be not important, but others who want to get through epics more quickly may consider it more important to them.

[Chai]

As always for each fortification the gear set is changed to suit the mobs you fight.

The calcs are posted for potential DPS rather than I want to be average DPS.

So instead of calculating for what the build can do, you calculate for what .1% of everyone in the game can do with the stars aligned gear in a stars aligned situation, then tell us that top tier DPS is that number.

Very small % of people run epics and a very small % of those people have all the gear you are calculating with.

~80 DPS, 2 extra haste boosts, 4 feats, higher HP, higher DCs e.c.t.

Cannot believe people go pure, what a bad decision!

In the ONE situation that favors it the most. After taking the first 11 or so feats, more feats start bringing on hugely diminishing returns in DPS and are better spent elsewhere.

Due to the fact that it is SA damage rather than double strike or other it is impossible to give complete comparisons between the two and as I said it is only my opinion.

You werent bantering up this same tree when you were trying to tout your 18/1/1 build over the 18/2 cookie cutter everyone else plays. You were tacking on an absolute number to SA and tuting how it beats the other builds, when other players were looking at situational DPS.

You are giving us DPS numbers from autocritting trash to prop up builds as an absolute number, but then somehow in that same situation you are bantering is absolute, its somehow impossible to calculate SA damage? I dont think its impossible given the situation doesnt change, I think it destroys this awesome sauce pure fighter you keep propping up on paper, so it doesnt get brought up in conversation. The minute someone brings this up however, I notice how the conversation shifts to different fort and different circumstances, heh.

If its not possible, look at the chart in the OP, comparing rogues in all situations to other builds in the same.

[NaturalHazard]

Evidently my Ninja Lich who is dex/wis/AC/shortsword based only does 250 or so dps (didn't calculate stunning fist and handwrap/dps gear setup for epic). Then again, I am a freakin NINJA LICH! I can self heal, and stealth, and firewall, and beat you down with my undead arms, all while laughing maniacally.

Stick that in your DPS pipe and smoke it.

yes but a uber barberian or fighter with a gaggle of slaves (other players) serving his every need can beat down twice as fast. :P

[Chai]

My standard wasn't based on "whether or not people running epics would have this." It was based on "what you can expect to have after several months of frequent raiding/epics." It doesn't include epic bloodstone, epic marilith chain, or even litany (since it assumes the trinket slot is bloodstone). You can see the full list of equipment in that link in my post earlier.

I think painting this kind of picture helps alot more because its using what I like to call "standard end game gear" rather than the top of the line stuff that barely anyone has a complete set of. Theres alot higher of a percentage of people who raid and run epics frequently who TR and rebuild who would want to see this kind of data to make decisions, and their gear is either on par with what is being compared, or is close to it.

[NaturalHazard]

Do you need to be at the top of these charts to be even considered useful for end game questing and raiding?