New DPS chart

[Razcar]

You forgot the +5 from tharne's.

Tr'd rogues can also use sneak of shadows for another +5 for really tough to hit monsters.

And he also missed the +2 to-hit from the Assassin's poison.

[The_Phenx]

You do 200 per hit but at a much slower attack rate than picks which are also doing over 200 per hit. Your dps is lacking using a staff that's a proven fact.

The dreamspitter thing is not wrong. If you neg level something that already has lost some hp it loses a percentage of it's max hp but that percentage is taken from the hp already lost not new additional hp lost. Unless you are able to land a neg level while the mob is full or nearly full you are not doing any hp damage to it as that damage has already been done.

Blinded mobs doesn't up your dps if you didn't have aggro anyways. A blinded mob still takes a while to beat down nowhere near what a held mob is.

EVERY time you de-level a monster it looses ammount of HP given in relation to its con score. Thats the point .. its turning a 5000hp monster to a 1000hp monster. The damage is in the numbers not directly dealt, and an acrobat does 220pts a hit with a dreamspitter anyway.

As for radiance make up your mind are we soloing a mob or team battle. A rogues best weapon for 1 on 1 is ALWAYS radiance. And if we are all hitting a single target its earthgrab to get autocrit.

Can't talk about dual weilding rogues.. their boring .

[The_Phenx]

is There A Class That Can't Tank Reaver?

F2p Hahahahaha

[stainer]

[Emili]

Barbs shouldn't be above Rogues and it is arguable that they should be above Fighters. Both classes face penalties (HP and DR) that Barbs do not have to worry about. Rogues also have lower to hit, situational DPS in every circumstance and as a result have to be played with more skill than your average mouth breathing Barb.

All classes use clickies and no classes need AC.

Pretty much sums it...

[The_Phenx]

And any fighter who is putting out barb-level DPS isn't going to have any AC to speak of anyway.

A well built fighter is multi situational.

I can for example.

1. deliver top tier dps

2. umd scrolls to heal and res

3. turtle up to a decent ac with decent DR and a high intim

4. hate tank

thats the advantage of fighters you can do a LOT with them.

ANyway Im all talked out.. back to work.

[Therigar]

Now the devs just need to fix barbs to be at the top of the pack to balance out their inherent weaknesses (ac, clickies, frenzy) and all will be well.

Barbs shouldn't be above Rogues and it is arguable that they should be above Fighters. Both classes face penalties (HP and DR) that Barbs do not have to worry about. Rogues also have lower to hit, situational DPS in every circumstance and as a result have to be played with more skill than your average mouth breathing Barb.

All classes use clickies and no classes need AC.

Actually, I agree with Stool. From a purely fantasy fiction mindset barbarians should be darn near unstoppable forces when they have their rage on. There is no acceptable reason or logic that would put rogues anywhere near them in terms of damage -- assassination aside.

Fighters should be less than barbarians but able to outlast them -- better than a barbarian whose rage is gone. And rangers should be better in one-on-one combats but fall behind the fighter in group situations.

Unfortunately, DDO (and D&D in general) doesn't mirror fantasy fiction as well as it (maybe) should.

Consumer is right that rogues require better play. The lack thereof probably explains why so many people hold them in low regard.

[Consumer]

And he also missed the +2 to-hit from the Assassin's poison.

Poisons are generally considered to be almost useless.

[Therigar]

These charts are situational and when the situation changes so would the numbers.

Of course they are situational. But, when one class consistently comes out on top you have to be a moron to not notice it.

Just saying....

[Consumer]

I can for example.

1. deliver top tier dps

3. turtle up to a decent ac with decent DR and a high intim

Prove you can do these two together in one quest. The top tier DPS is ~600 for most classes and decent AC would have to clear 60.

If you cannot do these things in a single quest then you may as well have 2 focused toons instead of the one that is a jack of all trades.

[Therigar]

Poisons are generally considered to be almost useless.

Yeah, we're just reaching now I think.

More important bit was Tharnes, etc. Shifts the bottom line to something like +65. I also didn't see penalties for OTWF but I might have missed that.

I still think the point made was valid and worth more information.

Unfortunately I don't know the AC numbers for Horoth or Suulomades. Maybe someone has estimated them and they are in the forums someplace. My search-fu isn't that good.

[Therigar]

Prove you can do these two together in one quest. The top tier DPS is ~600 for most classes and decent AC would have to clear 60.

If you cannot do these things in a single quest then you may as well have 2 focused toons instead of the one that is a jack of all trades.

Not sure that it is so hard to do. Might be as simple as a weapon set swap dropping from TWF to S&B with top line tower shield. OTOH, what he means by top DPS and what you have set are two different things I think.

Where did you pull the ~600? Could be he's thinking like Grodon about the 400 points of damage by the undergeared barbarian....

Edit: Note that you did say "same quest" not "same encounter." Switching gear from encounter to encounter, particularly if you know the quest well and know what to expect, isn't really that big of a deal.

[grodon9999]

Prove you can do these two together in one quest. The top tier DPS is ~600 for most classes and decent AC would have to clear 60.

If you cannot do these things in a single quest then you may as well have 2 focused toons instead of the one that is a jack of all trades.

You're still sticking with that 600 DPS number though the new calcs scaled a lot of stuff back?

Any non-rogue even able to break 600 without Red-scale? I don't have a copy of the calc with me so that wasn't a hypothetical question. The rarity of red-scale and the fact that most of the stuff that's hard to kill in this game is immune to fire makes that suspect.

[Consumer]

You're still sticking with that 600 DPS number though the new calcs scaled a lot of stuff back?

I posted a table which shows 600 is the number that the DPS classes can hit (including the Fighter) with sustained DPS. That also includes no TRs enabling a bursting (psionic str and others) TRed toon to beat 600 easily.

If he claims top tier it has to be top tear and not middle tier.

[Razcar]

Consumer is right that rogues require better play. The lack thereof probably explains why so many people hold them in low regard.

Yes, but the ones holding then in low regard are mainly inexperienced players. (But in the defence of the rogue-bashers they likely see them this way for a good reason - and that is that a rogue in the hands of a bad player is a disaster. And the inexperienced people mostly play with players similar to themselves. )

But the experienced players have known for a long time that rogues are the kings of DPS. They pay for this by having situational damage - in terms of the opponents and having to establish specific situations to do DPS, and by generally having lower defence than other melee classes.

The low regard for rogues held by some actually works in their favour when pugging. It works like an automatic noob-vetting: the leaders that decline you are running groups you really wouldn't want to be in on any class.

[Emili]

Not sure that it is so hard to do. Might be as simple as a weapon set swap dropping from TWF to S&B with top line tower shield. OTOH, what he means by top DPS and what you have set are two different things I think.

Where did you pull the ~600? Could be he's thinking like Grodon about the 400 points of damage by the undergeared barbarian....

Edit: Note that you did say "same quest" not "same encounter." Switching gear from encounter to encounter, particularly if you know the quest well and know what to expect, isn't really that big of a deal.

There is a lot more gear swap required to turtle down a fighter into reaching decent AC modes than pulling out a tower shield... much of that gear you swap also happens to be in areas where you were gearing items to enhance DPS output. A reasonable AC would also be 'bout 85 in ToD (Horoth's BaB being about 65) for instance of which you'd also would like to remedy and support such with reasonable saves.

FOR THE RECORD>>>> that which appear as registered top tier calculated DPS is just what it is - The range of top tier calculated DPS, one may make the reasonable assumption that the average geared of each and every one of those classes follow similar lines of demarcation.

If we poise the question as to the fact that Rogue is among the top DPS melee - the answer has and always been "It is." Shall I look at in game among the average player base I would also arrive at the same bloody conclusion just based on what I see in game ... from experience on my own rogue and what I have seen of others. It's quite that simple.

[Chai]

Consumer is right that rogues require better play. The lack thereof probably explains why so many people hold them in low regard.

Yeap, there are ALOT of 225 hp 25% fort level 20 rogues running around.

When you fill a bunch of DPS slots in the group with 500+ HP well geared rogues, its a beautiful thing to watch a boss' HP go down like its a portal.

[Razcar]

Poisons are generally considered to be almost useless.

Yes the poison effects themselves are completely useless, but the +2 to-hit can be helpful on Epics.

[Consumer]

Yes the poison effects themselves are completely useless, but the +2 to-hit can be helpful on Epics.

They have activation time and do not work on bosses.

Quickly tested them and they can be activated at the same time as haste boost like HV though.

Will include it after sneak of shadows.

[Emeldir]

Things a rogue can't do (well/consistently/as well as other classes):

Kill undead
Survive while under aggro

For the most part this is true. If you told me a rogue was going to main tank horoth I'd have to lol. I suppose you could do it with some super ac + improved evasion, I guess those builds probably exist but I'd have to see it to believe it.

while tod maybe a little different, a rogue can tank. i have a pure rogue that has main tanked epic chrono and done just fine with both aggro and hp. survivability in most cases in this game has very little to do with class but gear and the player. theres alot of pure fighters, monster builds and paladins that can't tank horoth.

but this is way off-topic, the OP was wanting to compare dps. It's hard to do but enlightening for some one like me, who has a good grasp on the abilities and survivability of most classes, and wants to TR a pure barb from something that dosn't lose half their hp on a training dummy.