New DPS chart

[Therigar]

If you focus 100% on DPS and only DPS you are an idiot. Even in a DPS-thread.

You can't do DPS when you're dead. Survivability is a huge factor.

All toons take a DPS hit when they have aggro, for rogues it's especially huge. All these calcs are situational and having or not having aggro is a HUGE factor in any actual in-game situation.

In your ramblings you were implying that there's no point in playing other DPS toons besides rogue, I state there are things that rogues can't do and you respond with more nonsense. I'm pointing out a big, obvious thing, that's so self-eveident that anyone who actually plays the game and has and IQ above room-temperature shouldn't need spelled out for them, that would make a rogue go splat.

So, here is your bottom line.

Let's see if that squishy rogue has addressed it already.

Oops, yep, all over the thread there's that bit about threat reduction.

If the rogue doesn't pull aggro then he doesn't need to worry about going splat. We already have posts in this thread by people who play rogues stating they tank Horoth. So your one example represents a miniscule part of the game -- not even close to "lots of things."

The fact that you repeatedly resort to name calling and insults shows the weakness of your position. If you had facts on your side you wouldn't need to resort to such immature behavior.

Survivability. How about evasion and improved evasion. How about -40% or more threat reduction so that the bad guy doesn't pay attention to you. How about diplomacy so that the target sees you as his friend and the other characters as the real threat? The rogue has an entire arsenal of options available.

In your lame example you never answer the question. Why would a rogue be tanking Horoth.

Oh, wait, yes you did. Its because the barbarian who is suppose to be tanking can't keep the hate because his DPS is so low (because he's undergeared and doing elite Horoth with the rogue who is fully tricked out). I remember it now. Lame on top of lame.

Send it the big, dumb 800+ HP barbarian who cannot hold hate to tank. That's your plan? Hey, I'm not as stupid as you seem to think. If that's your plan then the rogue backs off his tricked out gear so he stays below your 400 HP worth of damage.

But, we are talking best DPS builds here. And it is clear that, in spite of your immature and lame perspective that you cannot discount the rogue as the top DPS build in most content.

If my (or any) rogue is stuck tanking Horoth elite it is because your barbarian sucks. That, young man, is the whole story.

[Thrudh]

It shows the difference of all the DPS builds to be so close I don't know why we bother arguing with each other

Ding, Ding, Ding!

We have a winner!

[NeutronStar]

I need to ask, have you ever tanked Elite Horoth? Got try that on a 500 HP rogue and get back to us.

As has been pointed out before, this thread is NOT about tanking Horoth.

[NeutronStar]

You know, it might not work out too well trying to tank Horoth elite on a 500HP character. But what you and Grodon and others never answer is:

WHY WOULD A ROGUE DO THAT?

You cannot all be that stupid. The entire point of a rogue's threat reduction is to avoid pulling aggro. They do not WANT to tank Horoth. What they want is the massive damage they do while some brainless barbarian tanks Horoth.

Duh, its ok boss, I gots da big ugly demony thingy. He hateses me a whole bunches.

To which I have to say, Good boy!

(I have to resist the urge to say Roll over, sit up, play dead. )

Because the point here is that the rogue wants the DPS. So doing something that isn't DPS related is not inside the rogue's realm of activities.

I think that Grodon would like us to believe that because rogues might be less than the best choices to tank Horoth elite that he's somehow identified "lots of things" that a DPS rogue cannot do.

But, tanking is NOT a DPS role. It is as stupid as saying, Barbarians can't disable traps. It is true, but who cares? What does it have to do with the subject? Nothing....

Neither does tanking Horoth elite have anything to do with max DPS builds.

But he is right, how well a rogue can tank elite ToD has nothing to do whether rogues can be considered the "top DPS class" or not.

These

[grodon9999]

But he is right, how well a rogue can tank elite ToD has nothing to do whether rogues can be considered the "top DPS class" or not.

Rogue have always been top-DPS. Miss Teen Troll USA over there is just spouting stupidity faster than my country can rack up debt. The rogue tanking horoth was a response to something earlier when I mentioned there are things a rogue cannot do.

Sorry for getting so off-topic, but since the more-accurate chart is finding the DPS-builds are so close we need to find something else stupid fight over

[Vanshilar]

One thing to consider is that these are almost theoretical examples of max DPS possible (give or take a few points here and there, such as Monk past lives). I would wager that maybe a handful on each server actually do this much DPS. Not only do you need the build for it - with no consideration taken towards defense or versatility when DPS could be had - but you also need the tomes and Epic gear.

That's why I tend to assume "pretty good" gear (bloodstone, tharne's, dual ToD rings, red dragon armor, etc.) but not "max DPS" gear/buffs (past lives, epic marilith chain/epic bloodstone, +4 tomes, hero's companion (yes I've seen people include that for max DPS), yugo pots, and so forth). Generally I figure it should be stuff that people can get after a few months of steady end-game raiding. For example, it's a rule of thumb (in my guild, anyways) that you'll get both ToD rings at or before your 40th completion, which would represent 120 days of raiding. Epic Sword of Shadow I think is okay because for TWF you assume the character has crafted two lightning 2's and two mineral 2's, while the THF only needs to craft a mineral 2 and then wait for the eSoS. I figure 1 eSoS ~ 3 green steel weapons (or, 72 larges) in terms of time to get is probably roughly even. On the other hand though it depends on what is available to you. But concerns about DPS will generally fall under the powergaming crowd; the casual player is not as likely to be concerned about "max DPS".

Here's the bottom line: until the calculations are shown incorrect or Turbine changes the mechanics, rogues are clearly the DPS leaders.

Keep in mind that these calculations assume that all builds can always hit on a roll of 2 or higher. For lower-strength classes like rangers or rogues, this may not always be the case.

What I have never seen is a comparison that goes thru the lifetime of characters at key levels and compares their DPS at that level given typical gear and optimal gear for their levels. I would think that natural divisions would be L6, L9, L12, L15, L18 & L20.

I'll get to that in a future post. The reason to do this actually is to gauge what are good levels to multiclass. For example, a barbarian has a nice bump at level 6 and level 18, but a small one at level 12 (since it's basically just the additional crit multiplier on a roll of 19 or 20) -- hence good levels to take barbarian are 6 or 18, rather than 12. Fighter kensei on the other hand gets a good bump at 12 -- hence good level to take for fighter or fighter splashes.

How about adding THF Lord of the Blades Favored soul (maxed str)?

In a future post I'll cover "regular THF/TWF" assuming that the class has only the THF/TWF feats, improved critical, and power attack, but no class-specific DPS increases, and "gimp THF" which assumes only improved critical and power attack (but no THF/TWF feats), for people to see how much it differs when you play a class whose primary goal isn't DPS.

What strikes me most about this graph is how changing the assumptions and presentation changes the perceived output. Looking at Vanshilar's graph a person would believe that the best DPS build is Ftr12/Ran6/Rog2 followed by Rog13/Ran6/Bar1.

This is because so much of the information streaks off the right side with auto-crit data.

Why is this fair? Well, because we are comparing elite builds with elite gear so looking at epic held mobs is fair.

Why is this unfair? Well, because if the epic mobs are held the differences in damage among the various elite builds with their elite gear possibly doesn't add up to even an extra attack in order to produce the kill.

What do we miss? Well, because we are tricked by the presentation to looking at the ooh, aah numbers of the auto-crits we fail to see that in the other 3 areas the "top" builds do not match the DPS of the rogue.

Put into context with the entire game, I have to question whether a person building for DPS really is getting what they are aiming for if they are only best in 25% of the comparisons and on content that can only be run @ L20 (ie, less than 25% of the total content in the game)?

I suppose for some people the answer has to be yes. But, for most people I'd think that they will be stuck re-evaluating their build choices.

Don't misunderstand. There are a variety of roles in the game and DPS is only one of them. But, if DPS is the role a player is building for then it is fair to question why they are not building L20 half-orc rogues.

Max DPS is situational. That's why it's worthwhile to look at how the DPS for each class vary under different situations. Which type of situation is important will depend on which kind of player you are, so which ones to look at will depend on what each player encounters more often. For example, someone who is just doing Shroud farming would probably weight 100% fort DPS (vs portals) and 50% fort DPS (vs boss) pretty heavily, and not care as much about the 0% fort DPS or the auto-crit DPS. That's why multiple bars are presented for each build, so people can see the ones that are most applicable for them. Looking at only one of them and then trying to make that decide each build's worth assumes that that's the only situation that you encounter.

A better method in my humble opinion would be to list the base DPS for each build with 0 gear and a masterwork weapon, and list the amount a single point of damage over 20 hits scales the build, then you can plug in reasonable and equal gear and bingo you have REAL DPS not theoretical. I would say end game about 5-10% of players have an Esos, of which maby 1% of that 5% can KEEP a devils ruin crystal in it. The people who can keep a devils ruin crystal in it constantly probably are the 1-3% of players able to afford all the end game gear for the build and able to pay 20+ reds for a single scroll.

Personally I believe you need to either 1) Change the target to include 100% max DPS, or 2) Bring the numbers in line and drop the Esos as only a small segment of players actually have it even at endgame.

That's for a future post (I have it set up already but just need to add a few numbers). The short version of the story is that 50-70% of a build's DPS comes from buffs and gear, so it'll be broken down into nothing other than self-buffs, buffs only (i.e. including haste etc.), and buffs + gear.

[grodon9999]

That's why I tend to assume "pretty good" gear (bloodstone, tharne's, dual ToD rings, red dragon armor, etc.) but not "max DPS" gear/buffs (past lives, epic marilith chain/epic bloodstone, +4 tomes, hero's companion (yes I've seen people include that for max DPS), yugo pots, and so forth). Generally I figure it should be stuff that people can get after a few months of steady end-game raiding. For example, it's a rule of thumb (in my guild, anyways) that you'll get both ToD rings at or before your 40th completion, which would represent 120 days of raiding. Epic Sword of Shadow I think is okay because for TWF you assume the character has crafted two lightning 2's and two mineral 2's, while the THF only needs to craft a mineral 2 and then wait for the eSoS. I figure 1 eSoS ~ 3 green steel weapons (or, 72 larges) in terms of time to get is probably roughly even. On the other hand though it depends on what is available to you. But concerns about DPS will generally fall under the powergaming crowd; the casual player is not as likely to be concerned about "max DPS".

Hold on . . . Red Dragon Armor is considered "good" gear yet Yugo pots are off the table?

[k1ngp1n]

But he is right, how well a rogue can tank elite ToD has nothing to do whether rogues can be considered the "top DPS class" or not.

That is correct - it is not the topic of the thread. However, Therigar asked a question. He received an answer. He cannot then go whining about getting an answer as not being on topic... If so, then it is he who is not on topic, and not the person who answered him.

[Therigar]

Need I point out that you asked this question:

OMG! I asked what the lots of things were.

Stool gave two. Grodon gives one. I'm still waiting on "lots."

Look at all the quests in this game and all of the settings. Tell me, how many times is it necessary for a rogue to worry about tanking Horoth on elite?

This is just a "pulled it out of my butt" example by Grodon of 1 thing that rogues are not particularly good at. But, it has nothing to do with DPS which is what my post have consistently been addressing.

Jeez, you cannot really be that dumb. Rogues can't heal like clerics or favored souls, they can't AoE and instakill like wizards or sorcerers, they can't encase their targets in jade like monks.... There is a whole list of things rogues can't do but that has NOTHING to do with DPS.

Rogues own the DPS bragging rights. What is there in the DPS world that rogues can't do?

Grodon said there are lots of things. Then he comes up with one thing that isn't even a DPS function.

Stool at least stayed on subject when he mentioned 100% fort mobs. Alright, he's right, rogues don't do well against certain undead. And, he's right when he notes that they don't survive well under aggro. They also don't do well against constructs -- unless they have the Wrack Construct enhancement. That adds up to 3 things in the DPS world where rogues don't do as well as other builds.

Three. Not lots, three.

And, we need to look at those three things.

Undead -- mostly trash mobs, a small number of end bosses, overall one of the smaller parts of DDO.

Portals -- don't fight back.

Survive under aggro -- really need to consider this one.

So, we are back to aggro management. Threat reduction, evasion/improved evasion, diplomacy. But, more important, how did they end up with aggression to start with?

This is why I ask about rogue builds and HP. I even transferred the discussion to the rogue forum to ask what the best HP numbers could look like for a half-orc with maxed STR.

Look, if Grodon wants his comments about "lots of things" to include non-DPS functions then great. But, the statement becomes meaningless since there are "lots of things" that a barbarian or ranger or any other class cannot do. It is stupid and irrelevant in that context.

Grodon made his comment in a thread about DPS. It only has valid meaning if it relates to DPS. There are only 3 things that are DPS connected where rogues have issues.

1. Some undead. Since this is mostly trash mob stuff who cares? I'm not building for this one specific type of enemy and I'm not building just to DPS Abbot or some similar undead boss where the standard tactic is Let the arcane handle it, he has firewalls.

2. Portals. Since they don't fight back who cares? I'm sure that if I build a character called Uberportalbeater whose only redeeming quality is that he beats down portals faster than anyone else.... Yeah, I don't think that's in the works.

3. Aggro. I really blame rogues if they pull aggro since they are not working hard enough to reduce their threat or they are too poorly played to avoid rushing first into every fight. If the rogue lets the other characters do their job and if those characters are built to maximize their own hate generation then a rogue should never need to worry about this. As the post about Horoth elite shows, if it is melee damage the rogue should be fine provided the healer is keeping up with the heals. I'm not going to discount rogues as prime DPS because Horoth elite might disintigrate them. The situtation should never even come up. And, if it does then the hate tank isn't worth having on the quest.

So, the objections to rogues as DPS are ignorant or inconsequential, mostly ignorant.

[Therigar]

That is correct - it is not the topic of the thread. However, Therigar asked a question. He received an answer. He cannot then go whining about getting an answer as not being on topic... If so, then it is he who is not on topic, and not the person who answered him.

Yes, I can whine about the answer as not being on topic because if the "lots of things" isn't restricted to the topic of DPS it is a meaningless comment.

So far we've identified 3 DPS things that rogues don't do well. Two came from Stool and I offered up the third. Meanwhile Grodon has given none.

So much for "lots."

[Consumer]

Two came from Stool and I offered up the third. Meanwhile Grodon has given none.

Stool gave two. Grodon gives one.

Not even a consistent troll.



Major problem - to hit

20 BaB
5 Weapon
20 Str (50 STR HO)
2 Shintao
4 Epic Spectral (competence)
= 51
4 Sneak Attack
5 Backstabbing
2 Flanking
= 63
-8 PA
-4 TWF
= 50 to hit
2 FB set (losing DPS)
2 Litany (losing DPS)
= 54 to hit
8 inspire courage (morale)
1 Haste enhancement
1 luck
= 64 to hit
-4 moving
= 59 to hit
5 SoS
= 64 to hit
2 poison
= 66 to hit

You have bugger all to hit compared to other DPS builds on a max DPS Rogue, on other DPS builds with similar gear you will clear 60 to hit easily.

Your gear set is also different to other classes and reduces your DPS no matter the situation.

[Therigar]

Keep in mind that these calculations assume that all builds can always hit on a roll of 2 or higher. For lower-strength classes like rangers or rogues, this may not always be the case.

Well understood. My assumption is that your rogue is a maximum STR half-orc as this gives the highest damage (something I was forced to acknowledge in a much earlier thread). All of my take on rogues makes this initial assumption.

My secondary assumption is that the rogue is under some effect that enables him to count as a full BAB class. These two assumptions lead me to conclude that hits on 2+ is valid.

FWIW, I wonder how much the rogue drops if initial STR is 18 rather than 20. This difference lets a TR rogue go with 18 starting CON and still have enough DEX to qualify the full TWF line. Before any gear this gives a standing 312 HP @ L20 and, with fairly typical items, puts the rogue at 475 HP before buffs*.

* This assumes a barbarian past life TRing to rogue and Minos, draconic vitality, +6 CON item, GFL item and shroud +45HP item. It does not include Madstone effects, exceptional CON, ship buffs, Yugo pots or arcane/divine/bard spells or songs.

[Therigar]

Major problem - to hit

20 BaB
5 Weapon
20 Str (50 STR HO)
2 Shintao
4 Epic Spectral (competence)
= 51
4 Sneak Attack
2 Flanking
= 57
-8 PA
-4 TWF
= 45 to hit
2 FB set (losing DPS)
2 Litany (losing DPS)
= 49 to hit
8 inspire courage (morale)
1 Haste enhancement
1 luck
= 59 to hit
-4 moving
= 55 to hit

You have bugger all to hit compared to other DPS builds on a max DPS Rogue, on other DPS builds with similar gear you will clear 60 to hit.

Your gear set is also different to other classes and reduces your DPS no matter the situation.

Unbelievable! Someone who actually responds to the issue with something relevant.

You have no idea how refreshing that is.

[LeLoric]

Not even a consistent troll.



Major problem - to hit

20 BaB
5 Weapon
20 Str (50 STR HO)
2 Shintao
4 Epic Spectral (competence)
= 51
4 Sneak Attack
2 Flanking
= 57
-8 PA
-4 TWF
= 45 to hit
2 FB set (losing DPS)
2 Litany (losing DPS)
= 49 to hit
8 inspire courage (morale)
1 Haste enhancement
1 luck
= 59 to hit
-4 moving
= 55 to hit

You have bugger all to hit compared to other DPS builds on a max DPS Rogue, on other DPS builds with similar gear you will clear 60 to hit.

Your gear set is also different to other classes and reduces your DPS no matter the situation.

You forgot the +5 from tharne's.

Tr'd rogues can also use sneak of shadows for another +5 for really tough to hit monsters.

[Consumer]

You forgot the +5 from tharne's.

Tr'd rogues can also use sneak of shadows for another +5 for really tough to hit monsters.

Ty, will include them, both buffs that can be used to the same effect on other builds as well though, still TRing into a 36pt HO Rogue this weekend though.

[LeLoric]

Rogues do have some issues that are dps relevent in Epic content.

1. Lower str and feat difficiency means they can not really obtain a decent stunning blow to generate auto crits without splashing.

2. Lack of proficiency with picks means generating auto-crit this way is much tougher. Master's touch scrolls can overcome this but are a pain to use with a two weapon fighting set. If you don't have this prepped at the start of the quest it's not really logical to be able to do it mid fighting whereas other classes just swap and go.

3. Sneak attack immune monsters. This is much more than undead. Elementals are quite prevelant in epic endgame content and one of the longest mobs to beat down in terms of time.

[Therigar]

= 55 to hit

You have bugger all to hit compared to other DPS builds on a max DPS Rogue, on other DPS builds with similar gear you will clear 60 to hit.

So, I wasn't sure how to respond to such a well reasoned post. What I did was to look at the Wiki to see what the various ACs are for the different raid bosses.

We already know that the Black Abbot isn't dealt with via DPS and that even if he were rogues have issues with him due to the 100% fortification. But, his AC is listed as 44, I presume this is for normal.

Arraetrikos is listed as 39 on normal and 51 on elite. The Titan as 35, again I assume normal. Lailat is 36 normal, ~70-75 epic. Since both are lower than Harry I'm going to assume that their elite AC is less than his.

Sor'jec and Stormreaver I'm not going to worry about. They are not listed but they aren't that tough in any case.

Velah, Xy'zzy, Horoth and Suulomades are not listed.

I'm guessing that since VoN is an earlier raid than Shroud and a L10 quest compared to a L17 on normal that Velah is less than Harry.

That leaves Xy'zzy, Horoth and Suulomades. All 3 appear in L18 quests and that suggests to me that on normal/hard they are probably pretty close to Harry hard/elite.

Xy'zzy might not be much of an issue since the babies do most of the work. But, I'd feel pretty good about going in with a 55 to hit for that quest. It would be good to have better numbers on AC there.

VoD is a different matter. You could well be right that the rogue would have problems there, particularly on the higher difficulties.

I don't know if it is enough to disuade me from thinking rogues are still top dogs in the DPS arena. But, it is worth additional thought and effort in working out the ultimate DPS rogue build.

[The_Phenx]

Rogues do have some issues that are dps relevent in Epic content.

1. Lower str and feat difficiency means they can not really obtain a decent stunning blow to generate auto crits without splashing.

My Rogue Acrobat sits at a 38 str, and doesn't use stunning blow, uses earthgrab staffs, which are more than fine for generating auto crit, or uses the souleater which is the only instant death weapon that works in epic.

2. Lack of proficiency with picks means generating auto-crit this way is much tougher. Master's touch scrolls can overcome this but are a pain to use with a two weapon fighting set. If you don't have this prepped at the start of the quest it's not really logical to be able to do it mid fighting whereas other classes just swap and go.

Picks don't generate auto crit. They are just the highest crit multiplier, and are not always the best option. Most classes would be better served using a dreamspitter than a pick against a held mob. While it doesn't generate direct damage the de-leveling effect is much more devastating.

3. Sneak attack immune monsters. This is much more than undead. Elementals are quite prevelant in epic endgame content and one of the longest mobs to beat down in terms of time

It is easy to deal with elementals in epic. Use epic soul eater, or at the minimum, use a lightning strike weapon to deal the most damage.

Red

Its all about knowing your class and how to overcome those little obstacles.

[voodoogroves]

But concerns about DPS will generally fall under the powergaming crowd; the casual player is not as likely to be concerned about "max DPS".

I think you'd be surprised the amount of casual-powergamers out there. People who don't have the time to spend like others and thus are also trying to maximize their capabilities versus time spent ...


....

Another topic, related. Well maybe just some rambling points.


There are multiple modes of play. One-lifers, people running multiple TRs and people who aren't quite brain dead from epics yet and want to run those. These comparisons are good, but the context and assumptions are kinda skewed.

- A great deal of the DPS comes from sneak on a rogue, which they can get a large chunk of by simply capping (at least against non-100-fort mobs). This is build-dependent.
- Some additional DPS comes from the right weapons and gear - epic'd gear or dual-sharded GS. This is player-dependent for crafted items and both player- and character- dependent on epic'd items. Each of these is bound by time in a different way than simply reaching cap xp.

Meaningful DPS and sacrifices there for a toon who wants to do a lot of epic vs. multiple reincarnations vs. farm late-game to support OTHER characters are quite different.

I'm not sure my point (or three) just wondering how to slice the data a bit differently.

[LeLoric]

Red

Its all about knowing your class and how to overcome those little obstacles.

I am not saying there aren't ways around things but all three of those ways around thing do lower dps.

Using a 2x crit weapon as your earthgrab means you either have to swap to a higher crit multiplied weapon or be lacking in dps.

Dream spitter is ok if noone else is dps'ing it otherwise your neg levels aren't really doing anything but taking away the hp the mob already lost. This wasn't about hitting held mobs anyways it was about being able to generate an autocrit and being able to dps it down in that short time. Rogues lack that ability somewhat.

38 str with no enhancements is not enough to get a reliable stunning blow and feats are really tough to fit it in on the pure rogue.

Epic souleater is slow on elementals. Often times the thing is dead and no proc and you were using a subpar weapon the whole time. Using earthgrab picks to get all the free bursts is the best way to bring down an ele.