New DPS chart

[Aaxeyu]

Couple of points.

1. The chart would be more useful if you didn't stack the DPS measurements. As it is you can't compare the different scenarios visually except the bottom scenario. Goes against the purpose of using a chart.

Personally I like the other one better, but this one have it's advantages for sure.

2. While I do find the numbers interesting I'm not a huge fan of these types of DPS comparisons.

First of all they don't take into account any sort of fortification

What do you mean? You want different levels of fortification than just 0, 50 and 100%?
Easily done.
Here is 0, 25 and 75% (I dunno how to get the text boxes to change when I change the scenario, yet. I suppose it's easy to fix in Paint though)

nor do they take into account longer stretches where a lot of haste boosts/power surges and other shorter duration attack boosts run dry.

Here's 20 minutes instead of 5:

They just end up misleading people into thinking certain classes just can't compete and then we end up with 1,000 cookie cutter builds.

That's why I tell people to download the calc. You can very easily change alot of variables to those that fit best for you, and automaticaly get a graph to compare the results.

[Aaxeyu]

The FvS numbers seem off by about 10%. FvS seem to run about 70%-75 of the dps of a pure melee. This chart seems to have them in a 60% range.

I notice the rogue is 30% ahead of the FvS on 100% fort mobs. That indicates that the rogue seems to be getting credit for Haste Boost IV being on constantly. What FvS offensive buffs are factored in? (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Recitation, etc)?

Where do you get the 70-75% from?

You forgot that the rogue have opportunist for -10% fort and 3% double strike.

The FS got DF and full bab (so one could say it has DP aswell).

[Aaxeyu]

Is the ranger dps using tempest using 100% offhand swings and 5% doublestrikes?

Yes.

[grodon9999]

The graph shows a difference in DPS against different levels of fortification and please tell me what quest do you run out of haste boots/power surges , when most kensai's have 7 or 8 of them ??

It happens, but not on anything new. All new quests have plenty of shrines.

[stoolcannon]

Face it, you don't like it because it doesn't paint your favorite class in the best light :P

Dude you aren't kidding. Bitter, angry rage.

Seriously what other class does 3-600dps per min against themselves to hit their peak DPS? None. There is absolutely no reason any class should have a higher DPS than a barb except possibly a rogue due to their need to manage aggro carefully and squishiness should they fail to do so.

No AC, No clickies, 300-600dps per min avg against self = too much stick, not enough carrot.

Barbs need crits on glancing blows. Devs make it happen!

[Therigar]

Very nice work and well presented, in both the original and follow-on graphs.

I am familiar with 50% fortification encounters. I seldom run anything on epic so don't know anything, really, other than what I read. Can you please tell me when we need to be concerned about 100% fortification?

Also, I notice the rogue doing best in both 0% and 50% fortification calculations. This is what I would expect. However, I also notice that you give full BAB. This isn't entirely unrealistic as we could assume Divine Power. Is there a way to calculate the damage without full BAB?

Again, very good work -- a lot of effort and dedication.

[grodon9999]

Dude you aren't kidding. Bitter, angry rage.

Seriously what other class does 3-600dps per min against themselves to hit their peak DPS? None. There is absolutely no reason any class should have a higher DPS than a barb except possibly a rogue due to their need to manage aggro carefully and squishiness should they fail to do so.

No AC, No clickies, 300-600dps per min avg against self = too much stick, not enough carrot.

Barbs need crits on glancing blows. Devs make it happen!

Would you actually break down in tears if I reminded you that these numbers are taken from an 'Devil's Ruin' Epic Sword of Shadows and if you don't have that THFing will fall significantly behind?

[grodon9999]

Very nice work and well presented, in both the original and follow-on graphs.

I am familiar with 50% fortification encounters. I seldom run anything on epic so don't know anything, really, other than what I read. Can you please tell me when we need to be concerned about 100% fortification?

Also, I notice the rogue doing best in both 0% and 50% fortification calculations. This is what I would expect. However, I also notice that you give full BAB. This isn't entirely unrealistic as we could assume Divine Power. Is there a way to calculate the damage without full BAB?

Again, very good work -- a lot of effort and dedication.

Madstone rage = full BAB.

The 100% fort is just for a point of reference.

[stoolcannon]

Personally I like the other one better, but this one have it's advantages for sure.



What do you mean? You want different levels of fortification than just 0, 50 and 100%?
Easily done.





Here's 20 minutes instead of 5:





That's why I tell people to download the calc. You can very easily change alot of variables to those that fit best for you, and automaticaly get a graph to compare the results.

GLORIOUS! I didn't mean they can't just that the initial post didn't.

Thanks for running the charts this way it's now very easy to read and just further illustrates what junk said, there's very little difference between "Top DPS" across the different classes and not much reason to argue.

From there it's really all about player skill, style and let's face it, the group you're in. I'e got a pure THF Horc barb with good gear and silver flame pots so I do great DPS and can take care of myself when the going gets rough. That in itself is worth its weight in gold.

[stoolcannon]

Would you actually break down in tears if I reminded you that these numbers are taken from an 'Devil's Ruin' Epic Sword of Shadows and if you don't have that THFing will fall significantly behind?

Nah because I'm almost always at the top of the kills list and almost never die these days so I don't need no stinking spreadsheet to tell me who's kicking arse.

Just ran epic OOB with Kyorli this morning and he outkilled me 50-49 but I was afk for a few mins so I lost some time . I was also the only person who didn't die. In the meantime I rezzed people, took aggro, lowered the bridge myself, then collected soul stones before nabbing the final kill on the boss.

Just don't ask me about my drow wizard.

[stoolcannon]

I used to also not want to believe the rogue DPS numbers but I ran my buddies rogue for a quest when he had to leave and I saw the numbers flying accross the screen from sneak attack. Absolutely ridiculous.

[ganondalf]

You should add dark monks and see where they fall in this chart.

[k1ngp1n]

VCan you please tell me when we need to be concerned about 100% fortification?

Abbot. Most people don't worry about getting a group for DPS is there, but it is very nice to drop skeletor quickly.

[stoolcannon]

Can you please tell me when we need to be concerned about 100% fortification?

.

Dude everyone knows that Necropolis and Delara's is end game.

[Talesin]

Very interesting charts... I noticed 3 really interesting things:

1. THF and TWF are actually on par (depending on the build) with THF being slightly ahead on high-fort mobs and TWF being slightly ahead on low/no-fort mobs. At least when you are using a Half-Orc with elite weaponry.

2. With the buffs to glancing blows twitch is no longer beneficial (more or less) except on auto-crit enemies. I'm very interested to see where a 18 barb/2 fighter with the barb past life (and haste boost of course) is compared to a pure barb without it.

3. Rogues are the king of low-fort mobs assuming they don't get agro (which is how it should be IMO) and THF is on top for 100% Fort... although I was kinda disappointed to see Paladin THF significantly higher than Barb THF... I guess that is partially balanced on Paladin's Max DPS depending on a limited amount of clickie skills but I still think the self-damage of a barb should be rewarded with the top 100% fort sustained damage numbers.

_______________
Edit: Just saw that according to the charts Paladins still lead Barbs on the 20 minute scale which is just dumb... a Paladin has lay of hands to heal himself in a emergence and better saves... I have Frenzy to damage myself. Sure Barbs have more HP but that doesn't make the trade off anywhere close to fair. Oh well I still like Barbs better

[grodon9999]

I can't download the calc until I get home . . . but did you put the clawset . . . with it's hate amplification . . . on a rogue?

[stoolcannon]

Very interesting charts... I noticed 3 really interesting things:

1. THF and TWF are actually on par (depending on the build) with THF being slightly ahead on high-fort mobs and TWF being slightly ahead on low/no-fort mobs. At least when you are using a Half-Orc with elite weaponry.

2. With the buffs to glancing blows twitch is no longer beneficial (more or less) except on auto-crit enemies. I'm very interested to see where a 18 barb/2 fighter with the barb past life (and haste boost of course) is compared to a pure barb without it.

3. Rogues are the king of low-fort mobs assuming they don't get agro (which is how it should be IMO) and THF is on top for 100% Fort... although I was kinda disappointed to see Paladin THF significantly higher than Barb THF... I guess that is partially balanced on Paladin's Max DPS depending on a limited amount of clickie skills but I still think the self-damage of a barb should be rewarded with the top 100% fort sustained damage numbers.

Paladin's are very limited in how long they can put out that much DPS. I run a pali and I have 11 smites (could be higher but I am monk2/self healing) so that's roughly 23,000 damage over 40 seconds against held mobs with dual heavy picks. Very situational. In any event if you are non stop smiting you can expect about 1 minute of absolute max DPS followed by a gigantic reduction in DPS with 1 new smite every 90 seconds.

[grodon9999]

Very interesting charts... I noticed 3 really interesting things:

1. THF and TWF are actually on par (depending on the build) with THF being slightly ahead on high-fort mobs and TWF being slightly ahead on low/no-fort mobs. At least when you are using a Half-Orc with elite weaponry.

Keep in mind, this is an Epic SoS with a good/silver crystal compared to Mineral IIs.

[Aaxeyu]

3. Rogues are the king of low-fort mobs assuming they don't get agro (which is how it should be IMO) and THF is on top for 100% Fort... although I was kinda disappointed to see Paladin THF significantly higher than Barb THF... I guess that is partially balanced on Paladin's Max DPS depending on a limited amount of clickie skills but I still think the self-damage of a barb should be rewarded with the top 100% fort sustained damage numbers.

Not to mention that paladins only deal that much damage versus evil outsiders.

[Undone1]

I can't download the calc until I get home . . . but did you put the clawset . . . with it's hate amplification . . . on a rogue?

Which is funny considering the abashi set does more damage in almost any gear set (on average its near even on 0% fort, and its significantly ahead on 100 % fort mobs). It raised a question in my mind but I felt that I may as well ignore it. Of course a rogue would probably use this over the claw set.