Rangers need love

[grodon9999]

Yes, rangers need a little love. The +4 Shield bonus to AC is a freaking joke, since that's replaceable with a wand. At the very least, that bonus needs to be converted to a Misc. Bonus. I'd love to see a boost to doublestrike chance that is keyed to DEX bonus. I'd also be happy with a Ranger Haste Boost. This would only rarely add to the lag-generating processes Turbine's ancient servers can't handle. Or a capstone suitable for a Tempest III. The ranger capstone is pathetic.

How absurdly over-powered would a Ranger capstone have to be to get a melee NOT to splash?

[grodon9999]

DPS calculator can be found here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=195421

Most recent thread about it: New DPS chart

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620

Bigjunk - my overly geared Human Ranger is clocking in at 454.75 DPS in a 5 minute fight against FEs, buffed to the gills, no agro, 0% fort, inspired recklessness, with his dual lightning II Khopeshes (323.69 against normal BFD DR). This is with the gear he actually has. That seems about right because the barb who's agro I stole tonight in EChrono clocks in at low 400s with his gear (no ESoS yet).

Compared to and Fighter 18/Monk 2 (Not fair to compare to a non-evasion fighter). Human, same gear the Kensai gets 496.52 DPS (364.91 BFD DPS)

If my human had 100% off-hand STR he'd clock in at 473.66 DPS (339.79 BFD DPS)

If he had 100% off-hand and double-strike equal to his dex bonus (32 bufffed) he'd clock in at 487.48 DPS (349.79 BFD DPS)

This is against FAVORED ENEMIES compared to an Evasion fighter with some AC (human to human). A pure fighter would, and should, blow it out of the water. Comparing an evasion fighter to an 18/1/1 Ranger is a more fair comparison and could be buffed a long way before the ranger over-takes the fighter.

We are the bottom of the barrel on the DPS food-chain, that either needs to change or the other aspects with bring to the table in end-game need to become useful again.

[pSINNa]

I TR'd my ranger, i fed him +3 tomes, he has full sets of greensteel khopeshs, he's a strength built tempest 3 (18/1/1), he has multiple greensteel and raid item damage guards, he has dual crafted tod rings for extra con/str, he madstones whenever he can, and after all is said and done, i have to admit (and this really hurts me to say) that his dps is a bit average.

I've defended rangers as viable in many threads, i still like to play him, he contributes in raids and quests, but that's all i can say these days, he contributes, he never really shines anymore.

To have to say that about any toon that is that well geared and built, with that much time spent on development (I've done hundred's and hundred's on raid completes on poor old Coitfluff) is kind of sad.

Help my poor old first toon get his mojo back!

Coit out~

[Faent]

I've defended rangers as viable in many threads, i still like to play him, he contributes in raids and quests, but that's all i can say these days, he contributes, he never really shines anymore. To have to say that about any toon that is that well geared and built, with that much time spent on development (I've done hundred's and hundred's on raid completes on poor old Coitfluff) is kind of sad. Help my poor old first toon get his mojo back! Coit out~

Well said.

[Faent]

How absurdly over-powered would a Ranger capstone have to be to get a melee NOT to splash?

If that was the only change? Then a 5% double-strike boost and a +5 Misc. Bonus to AC. =)

[NaturalHazard]

Tempest II is AWESOME when splashed with something else, Tempest III is what's lacking.

What I'd like to see is double-strike equal to 5+ DEX bonus % for Tempest III. I'd also go with 100% STR on the off-hand.

I like that 100% str to the off hand with weapons other than handwraps.

[grodon9999]

If that was the only change? Then a 5% double-strike boost and a +5 Misc. Bonus to AC. =)

Still not even close to being worth not-splashing.

[Faent]

Still not even close to being worth not-splashing.

Yeah, you're right. Ok, stupidly overpowered.

[kingfisher]

class haste boost line (teir III at least; should have been added years ago)

toughness line (teir II at least, hiking and sleeping outside makes you tough, really)

double strike for temp III (i get that tempI was op but they should have given more back on the back end)
full off hand str bonus for temp III (if rangers cant have more attacks beacuse it breaks your game there has to be SOMETHING that sets rangers apart from the rest of TWF world. right now the tempest description is serious false advertising)

melee capstone (+5 FE dam, +5 FE to-hit, extra attacks, wider crit range vs FE....plenty of cool options here just pick one and give it to us already because bows are annoying)

[grodon9999]

We've got the Elemental Savants in Update 9, a couple of minor tweaks to a few others, and the next ones on the list I plan on after that are the Divine Avenger, Deepwood Sniper II, and Ninja Spy III.

So . . . will Turbine make Tempest III better or worse. place your bets . . .

[voodoogroves]

I'd like to see a potential fortification drop against FEs as a capstone. That'd both help and be different.

[grodon9999]

I'd like to see a potential fortification drop against FEs as a capstone. That'd both help and be different.

"Different" is a good word for it, not sure how it fits thematically.

[voodoogroves]

"Different" is a good word for it, not sure how it fits thematically.

I'm thinking of the Complete Splat books; Swift Hunter, for instance, can apply precision damage against FE, even if those FEs are crit immune (that's the scout-ranger hybrid) - not sure how 3.5 PNP-knowledgable you are.

EDIT: And incase that wasn't clear ...


Precision damage in 3.5 - like sneak attack, sudden strike, swift strike all have slightly different trigger mechanisms. At their core though, no precision damage can be applied to crit-immune targets. The Swift Hunter feat allows the application of that damage against FE even if they are crit immune. You still need to meet the other criteria (sneak can be triggered off of flanking but elementals are immune to flanking so flanking an elemental even if it is your FE still won't yield the sneak dice).

[MimCorals]

How about a Bane of Enemies capstone?

Any weapon you wield is treated as a bane weapon against your favored enemies and/or any weapon you use act as a vorpal against favored enemies.

[grodon9999]

How about a Bane of Enemies capstone?

Any weapon you wield is treated as a bane weapon against your favored enemies and/or any weapon you use act as a vorpal against favored enemies.

Greater Bane MIGHT be worth it, but doesn't help that rangers are really weak against non-FEs. The Vorpal thing's meh because most stuff that's hard to kill is immune.

[Thucydides04]

I have contemplated the problems surrounding Rangers for a while as my main is a Ranger and I have another who is geared out completely. It is my favorite class to play by miles. I think there are a few things that can be done to help rangers that would not be game breaking, namely for tempest rangers as I view AAs as fine in their current state, especially in the hands of a skilled player.

1. I would like to see some racial enhancement lines for dwarves and elves that I think would be beneficial to all TWF classes, but especially rangers. Given that their racial weapons are less effective in their own hands than some other classes, I would like to see dwarven/elven crit range or multiplier effects added. I.e. Racial Weapon Crit Multiplier +0.25 or Range +1 for 2 aps and add an additional +0.25 or +1 for 4 aps. Make the weapon enh lines cheaper for the races themslves i.e. 1 ap for tier 1 and 2 aps for tier 2.

2. I think Tempest 3 should get its additional attack back. I do not like the double strike implementation.

3. Tempest 3 could add a crit range of 2 or multipler of 0.50 when twfing and it does not stack with idea number 1.

-- If someone could figure out the change in dps if that were to happen that would be sweet. I suspect it would not be a whole lot--

4. Make Barkskin go to +6 Natural armor bonus at level 15. This spell is the ONLY spell in the game that comes on items that is better than the spell itself. I wish I could find a Fire Resist 40 items (not exceptional/profane etc.)

5. Adding improved evasion would be nice, since in epics, there are massive amounts of damage taken for failed saves that melee classes w/o either a toughness enh line or IE are at a heavy disadvantage. IE should be at level 18 rgr.

As far as a melee capstone is concerned, I do not see it working, the ranger has to give up so much for it to work that a lot of people would consider it vastly O/P. For example, a Ranger with 2levels of monk/ftr splash would be giving up 2 feats, AC in the monks case and +1 str, 2 feats, haste boost, and toughness 1. Rogue splashes add a lot too, namely SA dmg, umd, intim as a class skill, trap skills etc. I do not even know where to begin to make that choice viable yet also not overpowered. Part of the problem stems from rangers being feat starved and the rest from lacking a reliable survivability mechanic. Rangers who use sps need a feat for maximize, and if they are not ac, then dump wis and pump points into con for more hps.

[krud]

Yes, rangers need something. They perform 'ok' vs favoured enemies, but with the advent of varied bosses in epics, they do rather poorly against the trash and the end bosses that don't fall within that nice little list.

(It makes no sense to me that we're barely 'good' on the enemies we specialize in, we should be close to the best at the very least. Ie the fighter and barb maybe can still do a little bit more damage, but only a little on those favoured ones, else what the heck did we specialize for..)

Ideas at random:

- Tempest III +6 shield AC so we get back the +2 AC we once lost. (Or return the AC to untyped or simply change it away from shield bonus) /agreed. i'd prefer a return to untyped bonus.

- Tempest III getting back the 10% speed bonus we lost. At lvl 18 it would be a lot less unbalancing. I mean, fighters still have theirs, don't they, and haste boosts on top.. but I realize this is unlikely, sigh. This is however one of the best ways to give us back an edge we really need vs non-favoured enemies, while making us more competitive on our favoured enemies. (I'm also perfectly willing to accept it as a capstone)

- Increased crit multiplier on 19-20 (or just on vorpal) strikes. I'm so not holding my breath on crit range extension, but perhaps a limited multiplier would not be overpowered and would be useful vs epic trash.

- Ranger capstone: Mastery of Specialization, +4 to damage to all favoured enemies. (This one should help AAs and TWFs)

- Change Tempest III set from ToD to give 2D4 of DR bypassing damage, but only when you have tempest III. *(I'll understand if it doesn't bypass DR/blunt, but it should bypass alignment and material type DR)

- Tempest III could gain an extra bleeding damage boost vs anything that bleeds. Say 1D8 from the whirlwind of blades flying all over the place.

Clearly, I'm not advocating these ideas to go together. A few of them can work together, but most can't. F.ex ToD Set + dmg capstone + extra AC would be a nice little boost, but 10% extra speed (whether tempest III or in a capstone) + anything else would be likely OP.

It would be nice to take the ranger out of mothballs.

Too many of those seem like ripoffs from other classes. I see no reason to make tempest rangers pseudo-barbs or pseudo-fighters. I wouldn't mess with crit multipliers or ranges, or give weapon specialization like effects. I would stick to what their description says - they are supposed to be the best twfs. Increase the twf attacks.

I always liked the idea of making rgr double strike tied to their dex bonus. In addition, allow offhand attacks on every main hand attack, including double strikes. I would prefer that it be based on base dex (like divine might), and not our yugo/epic/item/shipbuff superinflated stats. That way there would be some meaningful difference between dex and str builds. Something like 2% doublestrike times base dex mod. Assuming they ever add +5 dex tomes, the max possible bonus for a dex build would be 20dex + 5level + 5tome(?) = 30 base dex = 20% doublestrike (or 120%main / 120%offhand). Str builds would be more like 110% / 110%

[infinidibulum]

My idea for Rangers is to focus on their status as a "specialist" class. They may need a little tweaking when it comes to DPS or hit points (I've posted elsewhere that ranged weapons in general need a little help) but I think it would be more interesting to give them more potential to support a party and/or handle a wider variety of challenges.

The two most iconic rangers that come to mind first, for me, are (go ahead and smirk) Robin Hood and Strider. These were both the type of character would be able to hold their own in a fight but could also finesse any situation and provide solutions the situation seemed hopeless. Neither was built like a brick wall, nor was either the strongest man in the land.

The one area where I'd be happy to see a combat buff is with favored enemy. Still, I don't know if I would be satisfied by just increasing the bonuses. An idea I had for that was an enhancement that might allow rangers to expand their favored enemy list according to intuitive groups. For instance, I doubt many people take vermin as a favored enemy but perhaps one could take an enhancement that would allow the character to expand Magical Beasts to include Vermin, Animals and Reptiles. It could be called "Exterminator." Another might allow a player who takes a race type to expand to all of the player race types. The only name I can think of for that, at the moment, is "Murderer," so that needs work.

I don't know how this suggestion will land but it seems to me that Rangers learn Cure Light Wounds at a point in the game at which it is beyond obsolete. Reducing the spell level of each of their heal spells by one wouldn't put the ranger in the category of healer but might come in handy. At lvl 11 they could provide some significant healing backup, with cure serious wounds. At level 4, I imagine some players would be happy to keep CLW ready for those moments when they take advantage of their Die Hard feat. I could see Restoration added as a lvl 4 spell to replace the vacancy left by CSW.

Another example for making Rangers stronger support characters is an idea I had for helping them deal with traps. They do get Evasion at lvl 9, which is sometimes handy for getting by a trap to throw a switch for the party but just being able to evade traps doesn't always help the party. I thought it would be interesting if at lvl 4 (since there's no feat there and it's early on in development) Rangers could take an enhancement or be given a feat called "Analyze Trap."* When the Ranger spots a trap he gains +1 trap avoidance, +1 for every 4 levels. This bonus would also be conferred to everyone within a radius of the player (same radius as haste or bless). It would last 20 seconds. In order to re-activate this, the Ranger would have to search the same trap again. The concept here is that the Ranger is a pragmatic survivalist who is able to point out how to avoid the trap, even if unable to disarm it. The Ranger doesn't get this bonus if they blunder into a trap. They have to be clever enough to spot it and discover it first.**

[EDIT]
A very unique ability for Rangers would be a tracking ability. The Ranger's player could select any member of the party and be given the most expedient route to the party member (some icon would indicate the way). This could likely be easily programmed, since hirelings are programmed to follow their owners already. Perhaps the Ranger might even move automatically toward the target, until their user initiated some other action. This could be very useful, especially at higher levels where dungeons become very complex. The Ranger might even jump to the target party member, as a hireling does, if the route can't be calculated by the hireling movement code. In order to mitigate abuse of this ability, there might be a process which resembles the standard "search" in which the character looks around for a few seconds. There might also be a benefit for the player to use this ability on a single, targeted NPC, as long as they can approach it, select it and move away.
[END EDIT]

I offer these ideas as examples for ways to make Rangers more interesting aside from buffing them up to be more like fighters.

------------
** Concept for Analyze Trap:
Because this still leaves the Ranger as a poor excuse for a Rogue, I considered a second degree of this ability, which would allow the bonus to be applied to a second trap save for each character. (each character makes their normal save check and then there is a subsequent check with the Ranger's bonus applied) If only one of the two checks were made, the damage would be halved, as usual (or negated, with evasion). If both checks succeeded, the damage would be avoided entirely, thus conferring a form of evasion on everyone in the radius.

*[I did a search in the DDO wiki and I didn't see the name used for another ability.]

[Syerson]

I think of rangers more like a "paladin" of the woods. Give us a wis based lay of hands (perhaps a little weaker then a pali) at each tier of tempest. Lets face it A suvivalist that cant survive through a fight and has to run away to heal themselves is pointless. Full str mod to off hand and +5% to both hands to double strike (that would end up 5% to off hand and 10% to main). Toss in improved evasion and and it becomes viable again.

[Aalric]

simply give us an animal companion like we are supposed to have - a useful companion (not the garbage that we can summon) that is like an animal henchman.

might help a bit...