A DR suggestion.

[Drfirewater79]

Hey all

I am a little disappointed in something ... Docent of Defiance.
The price on the AH for it on sarlona is 2 million (personally i have never seen 1 million plat in my account history and i have been playing since 2006) between heal scrolls and other consumables i could never afford it ... and see no reason to make a warforged barbarian without one.

So what i am wondering is ... why not make a high DR proc'ing armor for barbarians that are not warforged. There are alot of us half orcs around these days. A DR proc like DoD has on a medium armor (so evasion doesnt work allowing it to stay a fighter/pali/barbarian tank armor) Could have the same movement speed downside if you want but it would mean a fair playing field. Warforged get immunities and half orcs get dps but they both get even DR.
Instead now warforged have more hps immunities higher dr AND DoD.

I would love it if you guys would make a raid item (dont care what it is trinket boots or armor) that gave the same DR procing as DoD for meatbags ... instead of it being a toaster only thing. Fleshies are tanks too damd it.

[dkyle]

I am a little disappointed in something ... Docent of Defiance.
The price on the AH for it on sarlona is 20 million (personally i have never seen 1 million plat in my account history and i have been playing since 2006) between heal scrolls and other consumables i could never afford it ... and see no reason to make a warforged barbarian without one.

20 million is not possible on the AH. It caps at ~2 million, I believe. Possibly ~4 million. Well short of 20 million, certainly.

So what i am wondering is ... why not make a high DR proc'ing armor for barbarians that are not warforged. There are alot of us half orcs around these days. A DR proc like DoD has on a medium armor (so evasion doesnt work allowing it to stay a fighter/pali/barbarian tank armor) Could have the same movement speed downside if you want but it would mean a fair playing field. Warforged get immunities and half orcs get dps but they both get even DR.
Instead now warforged have more hps immunities higher dr AND DoD.

DoD is one of the few reasons to make a non-HOrc Barb. The HP is nice, but not necessary considering how much Barbs get, the immunities barely matter at endgame. Only the Reconstruct workaround to Sulu's Healing Curse is truly important.

There's nothing wrong with WF getting their own toys. Especially now that HOrcs stole their DPS thunder. So, /not signed

Also, why is this in Lamannia?

[Drfirewater79]

20 million is not possible on the AH. It caps at ~2 million, I believe. Possibly ~4 million. Well short of 20 million, certainly.



DoD is one of the few reasons to make a non-HOrc Barb. The HP is nice, but not necessary considering how much Barbs get, the immunities barely matter at endgame. Only the Reconstruct workaround to Sulu's Healing Curse is truly important.

There's nothing wrong with WF getting their own toys. Especially now that HOrcs stole their DPS thunder. So, /not signed

Also, why is this in Lamannia?

Yeah your right ... i think i am still thinking in gold .. still 2 million is crazy expensive.. i will edit the op.

Not getting healing impeaded when cursed and being able to be healed by both casters and clerics not able to get neg leveled .. yeah these things mean nothing right?
The dps difference is so minor that it doesnt even factor in as a reason. The Half Orc gets 2 more str in replacement for 2 con ... and an additional 1-2 power rage IF they can afford the AP.

Explain to me how Warfoged do so much less damage then half orcs.... At very most they do 6 points less on a crit. how does 20 dr equate to 6 dps and be considered EQUAL?
No one wants a half orc barb in there party because they take too much damage and are not healable when cursed (a factor in ALOT of raids).

Its called unbalanced ... and its been unbalanced that way for the last 3 years ... if you can explain to me how allowing other races and classes to make use of higher DR is a bad thing .. then i will hear it ... but if its simple warforged fanboism then please...

Warforged are the one race that doesnt NEED more benifits. Dwarven Barbs need these benifits ... str monks NEED these benifits ... and it surely wouldnt hurt for clerics and casters to be able to take less damage.

Cause i find it sees more people that matter in lama forums... but i guess i could post it again in regular forums ... there might be more people who are thinking about balance there ... right???

[dkyle]

Yeah your right ... i think i am still thinking in gold .. still 2 million is crazy expensive.. i will edit the op.

Honestly, that's not bad for what it is, especially considering the huge AH take. If trading in person, 1.4 million (what the seller of that 2 mil DoD would get), seems a little low to me.

Not getting healing impeaded when cursed and being able to be healed by both casters and clerics not able to get neg leveled .. yeah these things mean nothing right?

The healing curse aspect I called "truly important". How is that nothing?

And the neg level immunity is mildly useful, but not a big deal at high level. Deathward 95% of the time, Silver Flame amulet for the infrequent beholders.

The dps difference is so minor that it doesnt even factor in as a reason. The Half Orc gets 2 more str in replacement for 2 con ... and an additional 1-2 power rage IF they can afford the AP.

HOrc Barb vs. WF Barb (THF):
+4 STR (base + STR enhancements), +4 damage with all two-handers (including ESoS), +2 STR from Rage. ~7-8 extra base damage on all attacks is far from minor. That's more than the difference in DPS between a Drow Barbarian and a WF Barbarian.

The difference for a TWF is less, but still significant.

No one wants a half orc barb in there party because they take too much damage and are not healable when cursed (a factor in ALOT of raids).

Huh? Healing curse is a factor in two raids: VoD and ToD. And non-WF can certainly tank both, with guild curse pots. In both raids, the optimum is one WF tank, rest HOrc. Maybe a Dwarf or Human tank for Horoth (extra HP always helps, and healing amp is a real issue there).

In any event, I've certainly never heard complaints that non-WF Tanks take too much damage. WF tanks being difficult to heal, on the other hand..

if you can explain to me how allowing other races and classes to make use of higher DR is a bad thing .. then i will hear it ... but if its simple warforged fanboism then please...

Because inflating everything to be exactly the same for all races and classes is lame?

Variety is the spice of life, and an essential part of any well designed game. WF are good at getting DR (see: WF FvS). That's simply one of their strengths.

And I'm a WF "fanboy"? News to me. I don't have a DoD, and don't even particularly want one for my only WF character, a Wizard.

Warforged are the one race that doesnt NEED more benifits. Dwarven Barbs need these benifits ... str monks NEED these benifits ... and it surely wouldnt hurt for clerics and casters to be able to take less damage.

WF don't really need help, but they also don't need any aspects of their uniqueness removed. I see them as plenty balanced as is.

Dwarves could use help, seeing as HOrcs are better in nearly every way.

STR Monks can be certainly be WF. And so can clerics and casters.

Cause i find it sees more people that matter in lama forums... but i guess i could post it again in regular forums ... there might be more people who are thinking about balance there ... right???

There's a Suggestions forum for a reason. And posting in Lamannia while nothing interesting is going on on Lamannia is an interesting way to get read.

[Drfirewater79]

Honestly, that's not bad for what it is, especially considering the huge AH take. If trading in person, 1.4 million (what the seller of that 2 mil DoD would get), seems a little low to me.

All i know is its selling for max AH price of 2with a ton of zeros and i never seen that many zeros on my plat count in the last 5 years.

The healing curse aspect I called "truly important". How is that nothing?

And the neg level immunity is mildly useful, but not a big deal at high level. Deathward 95% of the time, Silver Flame amulet for the infrequent beholders.

Sarcasim ... that is why i am saying its stupid that only warforged get decent DR.

HOrc Barb vs. WF Barb (THF):
+4 STR (base + STR enhancements), +4 damage with all two-handers (including ESoS), +2 STR from Rage. ~7-8 extra base damage on all attacks is far from minor. That's more than the difference in DPS between a Drow Barbarian and a WF Barbarian.

The difference for a TWF is less, but still significant.

+4 str = +2 damage... not +4 ... +2 extra rage requires you take a lot of AP cost in extra orc enahncements so most people only take 1 ... but lets say it evens you out easier so we will give an additional 1 point of damage.

So 3 points of damage x3 on crits x5 on 19-20 = 9-15 more damage ... base damage in only increased by 3 not 7-8. And DR is a feature of Barbarians ... no one takes it now .. why because there is no point when DPS is the only factor people look at. Should STR is the racials Warforged get Con and more hps from warforged toughness ... that is the trade off ... warforged get something like 40 or 60 more hps ... half orcs get 6 more str. DR has nothing to do with it ... i am not suggesting more DR enhancments for half orcs .. or racial DR like warforged get ... that would be ignorant ... but DoD is a procing item ... something that should not be warforged only.

Huh? Healing curse is a factor in two raids: VoD and ToD. And non-WF can certainly tank both, with guild curse pots. In both raids, the optimum is one WF tank, rest HOrc. Maybe a Dwarf or Human tank for Horoth (extra HP always helps, and healing amp is a real issue there).

Able to do it and leaders willing to let them are two majorly different things... I can tank sully on my dwarf .. but only two groups have ever let me ... I can tank VOD on my dwarf ... but have had few groups who will let me .. Everyone assumes a warforged is NEEDEd for those jobs ... also having a fleashy tank means 3-4 healers instead of 2 cause warforged get healed by casters. Again Warforged have far more advantages then half orcs .. a little dps is not a fair exchange.

In any event, I've certainly never heard complaints that non-WF Tanks take too much damage. WF tanks being difficult to heal, on the other hand..

Then you must not play this game much ... cause so long as the Warforged has healers friend II no healers ever complain .. its only a problem with ignorant warforged who wont take healers friend at all.

Because inflating everything to be exactly the same for all races and classes is lame?

Again i dont think you actually read anything i said ... cause i said specifically that DR ITEMS not racials or enhancements... When it comes to ITEMS yes everyone should have the same items for the same roles. Its a game of you play this role and i play that role ... doesnt matter what class or race you are ... if your the tank you need DR.

Variety is the spice of life, and an essential part of any well designed game. WF are good at getting DR (see: WF FvS). That's simply one of their strengths.

This is why the games with the least variety are toping the MMO market right .. WoW has almost no variety.
again read above ... i am not taking away from Warforged racial abilities .. Docents however are not racial abilties they are armors ... so armors for other races should also have DR procs.

And I'm a WF "fanboy"? News to me. I don't have a DoD, and don't even particularly want one for my only WF character, a Wizard.

Then why are you so against other classes getting DR items? Are you just an elitist ??? Not cusing you out just wondering.

WF don't really need help, but they also don't need any aspects of their uniqueness removed. I see them as plenty balanced as is.
Dwarves could use help, seeing as HOrcs are better in nearly every way.

Again you have not understood a single thing .. it has nothing to do with racials it has everything to do with available gear.

STR Monks can be certainly be WF. And so can clerics and casters.

Who said they couldnt?

There's a Suggestions forum for a reason. And posting in Lamannia while nothing interesting is going on on Lamannia is an interesting way to get read.

Lama forums are usually where the testers ... people interested in game balancing and game development post ... since i have been active on these forums since march and have never ran into you before ... i wonder why you even care where i post my subjects? but i made a full and proper on on the gen forums .. funny enough the people i usually talk in lama forums with ... all replied there .. .amazingly enough

THEY AGREE.

[dkyle]

All i know is its selling for max AH price of 2with a ton of zeros and i never seen that many zeros on my plat count in the last 5 years

You almost certainly have at least 2mil worth of ingredients and other trade items.

Rare, powerful items are valuable. That's just part of the game.

+4 str = +2 damage... not +4 ... +2 extra rage requires you take a lot of AP cost in extra orc enahncements so most people only take 1 ... but lets say it evens you out easier so we will give an additional 1 point of damage.

You're forgetting this: http://ddowiki.com/page/Orcish_Melee_Damage

And Orcish Power Rage is only 3 AP. That's hardly a lot. The Healer's Friend II you suggested in this post costs 6 AP.

The damage boost of HOrc over WF for THF is ~6-7 base damage. Stop trying to pretend it isn't.

but DoD is a procing item ... something that should not be warforged only.

I think this is the crux of the problem: you seem to believe items fundamentally should not be race-specific (or at least, that any race-specificity must be symmetrical). I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be. DoD is an advantage for WF. One of the few they have, in my opinion.

There is nothing inherently wrong with expressing racial advantages through items instead of enhancements or race features. It's just another game element.

Then you must not play this game much ... cause so long as the Warforged has healers friend II no healers ever complain .. its only a problem with ignorant warforged who wont take healers friend at all.

I've played the game plenty. I've never heard anyone complain that someone is taking too much damage by not being WF. I've heard plenty of complaints about WF being hard to heal, even though I'm well aware that a good WF isn't hard to heal. That's simply an expression of fact: what I've heard, and what I haven't.

I just don't accept your assertion that HOrcs are being refused because they "take too much damage".

if your the tank you need DR.

No you don't. You can be an AC tank, have Evasion, or just have a lot of HP and Healing Amp. I'd be surprised if even half the WF Sulu tanks in VoD and ToD runs I've been in had a DoD. Somehow, they managed.

This is why the games with the least variety are toping the MMO market right .. WoW has almost no variety.

I said well designed, not popular. There's a reason I'm posting here and not on WoW forums.

again read above ... i am not taking away from Warforged racial abilities .. Docents however are not racial abilties they are armors ... so armors for other races should also have DR procs.

The ability to wear docents is absolutely a WF racial ability. And that racial ability is only worth anything if there are docents that provide benefits normal armors don't. Blademark's Docent is another docent that's outstanding for WF. That docent is another advantage for WF.

Then why are you so against other classes getting DR items? Are you just an elitist ??? Not cusing you out just wondering.

Because I like good game design. And part of good game design is giving various options various advantages and disadvantages. Removing a WF advantage = a less interesting game.

Again you have not understood a single thing .. it has nothing to do with racials it has everything to do with available gear.

I understand perfectly well. What you don't understand is that DoD is a racial perk of being WF. Race-specific gear is just as much a racial perk as race-specific enhancements.

Who said they couldnt?

You implied it by suggesting they needed a fleshy-version of DoD to get DR. They don't. They can chose to be WF.

but i made a full and proper on on the gen forums .. funny enough the people i usually talk in lama forums with ... all replied there

A perfect illustration why you should post in the proper forums.

Also, I assume you mean this thread. That's a much broader thread. And my take is that everyone agrees something should be done about AC and DR, but not necessarily that every race should just get a DoD-equivalent, with no other changes.

If some kind of DR stacking were implemented, so that if everyone got a DoD, WF would have some stacking DR that made them still significantly better at DR, I wouldn't oppose that. For example, I think the FvS capstone is well designed because while it gives all capped FvS DR 10, a WF can stack more on top of that.

But that's not what you proposed in this thread. You proposed making everyone essentially the same on DR.