Build help/ideas request. Turn/casting/intim cleric

[redoubt]

My cleric has been turn spec'd for a long time now. I know its not the most effecient way to build one, but its just a fun build to mess around with and it can heal well (and now that radiant servant is out I can do more offensive casting.)

I've got him up to cap again as a cleric, so this would be my third life (TR2) with two cleric past lives.

What I've come up with so far is:

Human.

STR 8
CON 12
DEX 8
INT 8
WIS 18
CHA 18

I know these are oddball stats. I want the wis for casting and the cha for turning. He is very effective at both already and it would take serious convincing to alter those two. Next, I picked CON over STR for survivability. I won't have enough STR to hit stuff at mid game and up anyway, so the extra fort save and HP seemed a better choice.

Feats (as they are on my 20 pure cleric):
1 - IMP TURNING
1 - max spell
3 - extra turning
6 - extend
9 - heighten
12- empower heal
15- quicken
18- empower spell

As a 20 cleric I'm pretty happy with these feats. They support the offensive casting (damage and CC) and turning well.

All my enhancements also support healing and turning. So hes basically a casting healbot that destroys undead rapidly.

Now for the tircky part! I've been hearing about intimi-clerics and I'm interested in seeing if that can be worked into this build. A few first drafts would include these options:

1 rogue, 19 cleric. Gets full ranks of intim and umd. looses one caster level.

1 fighter, 19 cleric. Full ranks of intim. Bonus feat; I'd like toughness, but I don't think it counts as a fighter bonus feat. As a result, I'm not sure what would be a good feat here. Looses one caster level.

2 rogue, 18 cleric. Intim, umd and evasion. Looses two caster levels. Low reflex save so I'm not sure how good the evasion would be.

1 rogue, 2 monk, 17 cleric. Intim, umd, evasion and two bonus feats. I could take toughness twice or boost the reflex save to benifit evasion. This build adds the most things, but also looses the most caster levels.

In all these concepts the play style would be to grab agro and either turtle and run mass healing (spells and/or aura) while the others beat on the mobs or grab agro and kite through BB. Having a lot of guards might also be an amusing add to this playstyle.

I'm looking for what you all think, what you've tried etc. He just has to remain awesome at killing undead (its a flavor/RP thing.)

[AtomicMew]

How would you take full ranks in intim on a 19/1? 11 rank on 19 cleric then +3 (ftr) or +8 (rog) still doesn't get 23.

Also, do you really want to be tanking with 12 con?

[redoubt]

How would you take full ranks in intim on a 19/1? 11 rank on 19 cleric then +3 (ftr) or +8 (rog) still doesn't get 23.

Also, do you really want to be tanking with 12 con?

One level of either rogue or fighter (and now pally I think) will allow you access to full ranks in intimidate.

As far as tanking with 12 con... dunno. I tank with less than that now, but thats on an AC build. With toughness x2, and all the gear... well... same answer, I don't know. Can a cleric tank with a starting 12 con? Thats part of the question here today.

[Illiain]

I have 1 level fighter on mine. It gives the extra toughness enhancement plus the extra from fighter vs cleric or rogue. It also gives proficiency with tower shields, for higher AC and blocking DR. I didn't dump Str, so I can pull out the vorpal greataxe and just kill stuff on my own.

With that much Chr, you won't need Imp Turning/extra turning. The fighter bonus feat helps out fitting in SF:Intim and Mark of the Sentinel to help get high enough for raid bosses. Sentinel also unlocks those enhancements for even more intim. I just wish I could fit Bullheaded into my build.

As for the 12 Con, I'd think it's a little low. I have starting 14+human con enhancement/3rd toughness. I'm currently just under 500hps, but I still need to make my GS hp item and get some exceptional Con items.

[phalaeo]

Now for the tircky part! I've been hearing about intimi-clerics and I'm interested in seeing if that can be worked into this build. A few first drafts would include these options:

I'm on my Intimi-Cleric right now- she's a blast and the party takes a lot less damage.

1 rogue, 19 cleric. Gets full ranks of intim and umd. looses one caster level.

How are you going to pull off enough ranks in UMD to make it worthwhile as well as keeping up Intim? Not worth it, IMO- if you're only taking one level, you may as well take two for evasion.

1 fighter, 19 cleric. Full ranks of intim. Bonus feat; I'd like toughness, but I don't think it counts as a fighter bonus feat. As a result, I'm not sure what would be a good feat here. Looses one caster level.

Normally a good option, but Toughness is not a Fighter Class Feat, and you won't benefit from any of the enhancements like Haste Boost.

2 rogue, 18 cleric. Intim, umd and evasion. Looses two caster levels. Low reflex save so I'm not sure how good the evasion would be.

Your reflex save would suck, as mentioned.

1 rogue, 2 monk, 17 cleric. Intim, umd, evasion and two bonus feats. I could take toughness twice or boost the reflex save to benifit evasion. This build adds the most things, but also looses the most caster levels.

Losing that many caster levels is a big deal if you want to offensive cast. You'd need to spend feats/enhancements above and beyond what I think you'd want to.

In all these concepts the play style would be to grab agro and either turtle and run mass healing (spells and/or aura) while the others beat on the mobs or grab agro and kite through BB. Having a lot of guards might also be an amusing add to this playstyle.

I'm looking for what you all think, what you've tried etc. He just has to remain awesome at killing undead (its a flavor/RP thing.)

Well, if you just want to remain awesome at killing undead, Radiant Servant burst does that better than turning does.

I really think that you're trying to fit too much in here.

If it's the Intim that appeals to you, I'd suggest leaning more towards the melee side instead of casting. Dump Wisdom out, keep your CHA maxxed for turning, and that also qualifies you for Divine Might. Up STR, Up CON.

I will tell you that you do not want "standing still, shield-blocking aggro" unless you have the HP to back yourself up. Intim is a close-range skill--- you can't be bouncing and kiting through a BB and hope to catch all the mobs. Then again, if you are BB kiting, you likely have the mobs aggro anyways due to the damage output.

If you've been to cap twice, examples of what I can shield-block:

• 448 HP (one toughness, 15 base CON, Draconic Vitality, CON 6, GFL, +2 tome, Racial Toughness III, Fighter Toughness I)
• Can shield block/Intim/"Tank" Orthons in Normal/Hard VoD, can melee Harry without getting one-shotted, has Intimmed and shield-blocked the first red named in EVoN1 (don't ask, lol), has tanked (but not intimmed) Hound.
• 58 Self-Buffed Intim.- don't know the thresholds for some of these, but gets Shroud Lieutenants on a 1, Harry on a 2, VoD orthons on a 1. Depending on what you want, that's a number to play with.
• Character is 32 pt., first life, Human, 17 Cleric, 2 Pally, 1 Fighter. Base CHA 16, Base INT 12 to keep up with Concentration, Balance, Intim and UMD.

[bryanmeerkat]

Where exactly do you use your awesome turning ability ? Im wondering if you are getting beyond more than you could ever use .

[Fishcatch22]

I'd forget about intimidating altogether. Without Toughness, no Con, and no good way of getting useable AC (Your only option with trash HP), you are going to be pointless. Either drop Turning-related feats and cha, or don't try to tank. Simple as that. Unless you're a Mostly pure paladin, Mostly pure fighter, or 2+ monk splash you will not get good AC for the endgame. Unless you can put out good melee DPS, you will not get good threat to hold aggro.

With regenerating turns and the endgame not having any real undead, those extra turnings and turning power are wasted. Regenerating turns makes your max turn number very unimportant, and with radiant servant you get a boatload of turn enhancements anyway. Its hard to make a viable cleric tank; I'd recommend trying a WF favored soul if you want full divine healing and tanking potential.

You might have some tanking potential as an HP tank if you can put out enough DPS to generate sufficient hate. Getting the max ranks of intim would be hard, and not really worth the gimpage to your build.

[Dendrix]

STR 8

Ray of Enfeeblement. You are helpless

[phalaeo]

I'd forget about intimidating altogether. Without Toughness, no Con, and no good way of getting useable AC (Your only option with trash HP), you are going to be pointless. Either drop Turning-related feats and cha, or don't try to tank. Simple as that. Unless you're a Mostly pure paladin, Mostly pure fighter, or 2+ monk splash you will not get good AC for the endgame. Unless you can put out good melee DPS, you will not get good threat to hold aggro.

With regenerating turns and the endgame not having any real undead, those extra turnings and turning power are wasted. Regenerating turns makes your max turn number very unimportant, and with radiant servant you get a boatload of turn enhancements anyway. Its hard to make a viable cleric tank; I'd recommend trying a WF favored soul if you want full divine healing and tanking potential.

You might have some tanking potential as an HP tank if you can put out enough DPS to generate sufficient hate. Getting the max ranks of intim would be hard, and not really worth the gimpage to your build.

I don't think the OP is looking to build a raid tank who the party needs to rely on- I think they're just looking to play with the idea of Intim. Also sounds like he wants it more for trash mobs.

[redoubt]

Some really good responses so far, thank you.

Stat wise (i.e. 8 str and ray of enfeeblement), I've been playing long enough that I have +6 items and +2 tomes, so he would be back up to 16 str. Not enough to melee, but he won't be helpless and can remove the damage quickly with his own spells.

Great point on max number of turns not being an issue with radiant servant. Though I have actually run out before when I'm in undead quests. I'll have to look at that as maybe some room to put something else in.

Turning vs. burst. I think the turn is still more effective. Sure during mabar I didn't use turns because the burst was enough to kill, but in quests like Madstone on elite, the turns kill the giant skellies, where the burst just seems to tickle them...

Toughness and fighter??? I thought toughness was a fighter class feat. Is this incorrect? (I know it is for monk.)

I'm gonna look at my total hp next time I'm on (so i can see with all the gear.) I do tank well with 405hp (but that's an AC build). I saw someone tanks with 450hp. Is that an AC or DR build? Could a cleric do tanking without AC and having 450hp? How much of a factor is the self healing? I was thinking (haven't tried it) that using mass heal/cures would keep him up even without AC, but again, I'm don't really know on this part.

You've giving me some good things to think on... keep them coming!

Redoubt

[Pape_27]

Also, do you really want to be tanking with 12 con?

^^ this

[phalaeo]

I do tank well with 405hp (but that's an AC build).

There are many definitions of tanking. Maybe I misinterpreted what you're going after... are you looking to main tank? "Tank" trash? In raids? Or quests?

I saw someone tanks with 450hp. Is that an AC or DR build?

Could be either.

Could a cleric do tanking without AC and having 450hp?

It depends. If you can't no-fail intim, that's a huge minus. If you can't keep up enough DPS, melees on his back will rip aggro. If you're asking solely if the HP is enough, I'd want a tad more minimum.

How much of a factor is the self healing?

Depends on the situation. If you're going through a healing animation, you are not DPS'ing to generate hate. If you need to heal and intim at the same time, you might go off your intim timer just as someone hits their damage boost, and you might lose aggro. If you're shield-blocking, you become vulnerable when you go through the animation. It's a tricky balance.