Add Heal Threat

[grodon9999]

Edit: The funny thing about your posts is that you're identifying exactly what the easy buttons are and further illustrating my point. Saying we'll switch from one easy button to another is exactly what is wrong with the AI. We've all gotten really lazy and so have the developers.

It's not lazy on the part of the devs, it's lack of technology. They can only make the AI so smart before the game comes to a screaching halt.

How powerful does a super-computer have to be to beat a grandmaster at chess?

[Missing_Minds]

My toons are public, I have 3 bards.

You are half way there then. Then again given the group you run with (unless you are soloing) they are probably re establishing agro to them rather quick.

Thing is I think there is a form of healer agro in the game as it is. I see it moreso in undead quests, but the hate agro, let alone intim agro can be established so fast is over power any healing agro possible.

Think about how fast you can cast compared to how fast they swing, let alone how intim works in the game. How long do melees have to wait to "establish agro" on the sorc before the melees come in and kill, and often times melees can still retake agro?

Would ramping up healing ago be a good idea? Well, it would change the game, that is for certain, but some groups wouldn't notice, others would. Then you'd have more people crying about initmidation needs fixing, followed up by AC re work, etc.

[Missing_Minds]

It's not lazy on the part of the devs, it's lack of technology. They can only make the AI so smart before the game comes to a screaching halt.

How powerful does a super-computer have to be to beat a grandmaster at chess?

Turbine also licensed the AI, it isn't house generated any more. Hasn't been sense... Mod 3? Just house Modded. To what extent they can I don't know.

[weyoun]

AI change is needed. And logcially simple, but I"m not certain what results can be returned to make it work. Aka I don't know how their scripting language works to support simple ideas.

Understood. Its obviously more complicated than a simple suggestion. Its a large scale change but they are capable of doing it. The game has a robust player base that is flexible enough to adapt to changes in mechanics (despite the wailing, gnashing of teeth and threats to quit a la w/p nerf, DoT crit fishing nerf, twf nerf, etc etc). Its a change I think the developers would like to make, but its just a matter of investment really. I don't think it will happen because the margins are good and they are on cruise control in the game's life cycle. I would like to see some ROI for myself, however, and that's why I'm posting this. I'd like for there to be a challenge again.

[weyoun]

It's not lazy on the part of the devs, it's lack of technology. They can only make the AI so smart before the game comes to a screaching halt.

How powerful does a super-computer have to be to beat a grandmaster at chess?

Well they seem to do it pretty well in LOTRO. Healing threat works great over there. Also works in a dozen other MMOs. Its not impossible if the same devs working for the same company can produce the AI in another game.

[salmag]

Well they seem to do it pretty well in LOTRO. Healing threat works great over there. Also works in a dozen other MMOs. Its not impossible if the same devs working for the same company can produce the AI in another game.

I believe, and I could be wrong, that LOTRO is turn-based, is it not?

Heal-threat CAN work in a turn-based game rather well, I would think...

[weyoun]

I believe, and I could be wrong, that LOTRO is turn-based, is it not?

Heal-threat CAN work in a turn-based game rather well, I would think...

LOTRO is not turn based.

[salmag]

LOTRO is not turn based.

My mistake... I thought it was...

[cupajoe]

Our monsters can beat up their monsters! Whad'da ya think?

Here's to a day when players talk about how easy DDO USED to be, before they "fixed" the AI!

[weyoun]

My mistake... I thought it was...

It can seem like its turn based at the low levels because your skills are on CD timer (depending on class) and it seems like you attack the monster, he attacks you etc, but it is not the case.

[weyoun]

Our monsters can beat up their monsters! Whad'da ya think?

Here's to a day when players talk about how easy DDO USED to be, before they "fixed" the AI!

Lol. We can only hope.

[Missing_Minds]

LOTRO is not turn based.

But it IS a standard MMO where such "agro" is common and easy to add in.

Methods to generate agro from a standard MMO won't work well in DDO.

And honestly, a sheild wall issue is not that complicated.

mob checks to see if it has LOS and direct pathing to target (does not include player base obstructions).
If it does, move towards target. Mark a "point of origin" poo.
timer check. If it has not moved from from poo ??? feet and mob does have direct pathing to target. Attack straight ahead.
If attack connected with PC, agro change to PC that was just hit. Keep this agro for 6 seconds.
If attack did not connect with PC, back up 5 feet and re path to target.

I just don't know how much their scripting allows, let alone all the other logic that exists already. How to fit such in. This is probably the kicker.

[Missing_Minds]

Our monsters can beat up their monsters! Whad'da ya think?

Here's to a day when players talk about how easy DDO USED to be, before they "fixed" the AI!

I remember when you could run behind a mob and hit them quite easily. Back when hit detection of a moving target worked well... Pre mod 3! Then they licensed the AI we have now, trying to "fix" the AI.

That day is now, and has been for years.

[Frotz]

Almost seems that if each mob just randomly generated a fixed priority list of party targets, attacking the highest priority within range and moving toward the highest if nothing was in range, that would be less exploitable than any "intelligent" behavior.

[kernal42]

timer check. If it has not moved from from poo ??? feet and mob does have direct pathing to target. Attack straight ahead.

This would just require that whoever has the aggro (presumably an arcane, but whatever) just needs to run back and forth along the shield wall so the mob keeps moving.

The correct implementation works via pathing, which we know the mobs already do.
If there is no path to the aggro target, then either:
A) Use ranged tactics
B) Attack the PC that is most directly in the way of the aggro target.

-Kernal

[weyoun]

I remember when you could run behind a mob and hit them quite easily. Back when hit detection of a moving target worked well... Pre mod 3! Then they licensed the AI we have now, trying to "fix" the AI.

That day is now, and has been for years.

Turbine has done some good work getting rid of easy buttons and I don't think that's a bad thing. I learned around mod 4 not to chase monsters and its when I started wearing fearsome and let other people complain about it while they chased down my feared mobs. Its overpowered as well but underutilized due to the whining of melees who are unwilling to switch targets and have to chase down mobs like lemmings so they keep up in the KC. That's another thread though.

[weyoun]

This would just require that whoever has the aggro (presumably an arcane, but whatever) just needs to run back and forth along the shield wall so the mob keeps moving.

The correct implementation works via pathing, which we know the mobs already do.
If there is no path to the aggro target, then either:
A) Use ranged tactics
B) Attack the PC that is most directly in the way of the aggro target.

-Kernal

The mechanic that allows for shield wall to work in the first place is the problem, not the pathing. A giant can't get to the caster because a halfling with a shield is in his way? Preposterous. Adjust it or better yet get rid of it.

[Illiain]

Play a bard. Tell me you aren't picked out first. *grumbles* 2 rooms back/hidden and I'm still targeted first!

I have a WC bard with ranger splash TWF khopesh. They walk around me to get to the casters and I use intim. They must pick the person with the lowest kills.

As for the AI, if it was fixed, we'd never be able to intim/hate tank. Why would anything target the best defended, or the guy with the biggest axe, instead of hitting the squishy casters and healers. Every raid/epic raid in the game would start with the healers being one shotted with disints/meteor swarms.

Once support is dead, melee is just a sack of declining hps. Some just do it faster than others.

Some things, which being more realistic, would make the game unplayable if implemented.

[sirgog]

/signed to both.

[Bobthesponge]

Drinking your way through a quest shouldn't be a viable strategy.

Don't be silly. I drink my way through every quest and it works great until I pass out.