"are you healer spec'd"

[Tirisha]

come on, you're so healer spec'd you don't even wear armor

(and one of the better healers)

Not true! I now wear a Chainmail Coif, Which is armor in a sense that it is used for additional protection of the melon, often worn underneath the helmet, which is a bit odd because technically you could call it underwear..... that you wear on your head. Which kinda goes with my cosmetic choice...... hmm.....

[morticianjohn]

Let me put it this way,

if the raid group has only one healer and he's a first time shroud runner then it would be best to check with that FvS if he's going to be healing the party before he joins.

I've seen many FvS that are solo builds and their role in a raid is DPS cause they have spot healing but no mass heals. Especially if they're lvl 17 and wouldn't have access to mass heal and there is a lot of competition for mass cure critical, mass cure serious, and mass cure moderate in their spell selection.

[AtomicMew]

Yes I understand that healing specced is not easily Defined, personally I think the main thing is the metamagic feats because no matter how Healing Specced the

It doesn't really matter what "heal spec" means to you, it only matters what it means to the person asking. If someone asks "are you heal spec'ed", c'mon... you KNOW what they're really asking. Read between the lines.

[LordPiglet]

Not true! I now wear a Chainmail Coif, Which is armor in a sense that it is used for additional protection of the melon, often worn underneath the helmet, which is a bit odd because technically you could call it underwear..... that you wear on your head. Which kinda goes with my cosmetic choice...... hmm.....

well, it might chaff if you wore as underwear instead of underhelmet wear

[wax_on_wax_off]

1000th Post! Geez I need a life.

Understandable, I'm interested to learn which quest you ran *in case I missed it* What I mean too say is the more difficult the quest is; better yet the more incompetent your party may be the more you will see the benefit of your metamagic feats. You could live without them and function quite nicely, It's just I wouldn't recommend say Solo healing EDQ. I believe a previous post put it better than me by saying healing specced means taking everything that can improve your healing first then taking whatever secondary function you might want. be it DPS or Casting power. This is the approach that I made with my main and favorite toon, though I don't believe it's the intended quest by the Party leader in question (or in general what the quest commonly means) I think it's just a polite way of asking do you heal *Prioritize healing over dps* or Can you keep us healed in this quest *are you skilled enough to heal this quest* Which in all right a leader should be allowed to ask.

On a Side note I think being more "healing specced" indirectly increases your ability to DPS, If I'm casting twice as powerful heals as you, then it may be reasonable to say that throughout the coarse of the quest I spent half as much time healing as you did, using that extra time to DPS or Cast depending on the build. That being said I would consider leaving Maximize on and seeing how it effects your play. I know that if you adjust your heals accordingly not only could you save SP on more efficient casting but you could spend more time beating your enemies into the dirt with that good old WF PA.

It was Epic Devil Assault which was said in an earlier post. Apparently one of the toughest quests in the game, worth 2 dungeon tokens too!

This suggestion of taking everything that increases your healing ability is silly. The return on investment on the higher tiers of criticals is simply not worth it (I would love to see some math one way or another). I have maxed out Life Magic and then spread the rest of my APs around to where they are needed (tanking/DPS). Also, I think that I've only put about 1 rank in extra spell points as I never run out of SP anyway (I used 2 normal SP pots in epic devil assault - 0 majors). EDQ is fun and maybe some day I'll solo heal it but I still have a fair bit of gear to go (GS SP item, archmagi, superior ardor VIII clickies for example).

Let me put it this way,

if the raid group has only one healer and he's a first time shroud runner then it would be best to check with that FvS if he's going to be healing the party before he joins.

I've seen many FvS that are solo builds and their role in a raid is DPS cause they have spot healing but no mass heals. Especially if they're lvl 17 and wouldn't have access to mass heal and there is a lot of competition for mass cure critical, mass cure serious, and mass cure moderate in their spell selection.

I didn't find there to be any competition due to only a few offensive spells being taken. In fact, it is much easier for a WF FvS to fit all of the mass cure spells in their lineup than it is for a caster FvS who wants buffing, offensive AND healing spells. If they don't have the spells then they are simply badly built and should fix their build before they enter a raid.

[Gelb]

It is not their fault that they ask it, there are bunch of favored souls that is like "Dude, I cannot heal, I am dps..." That makes no sense to me, I am playing a TR battle fvs and I almost capped her, so far I had no problem with dpsing and tossing a heal when I see somebody's health bar goes down. It requires more focus and you gotta give up a little bit dps for the times you gotta step back and heal, but it is okay.
Honestly, I'd rather have a barbarian in my group rather than a fvs dps that won't heal anybody, fvs can dps, but average, not the most.

[knightgf]

Even melee FvS can still do some decent healing, though maybe not as much as clerics can. Think of it as a non-tank fighter in a way; they may not have the best healing capabilities, but they can do still some decent healing, just how a fighter has plenty of spare feats to take all the shield blocking feats and tank in a normal quest. Hell, to be honest, before I got heal, I just used a maximized cure serious serious to do some healing, and it worked just fine in my parties. It kinda stuns me to think about how I never took cure critical wounds...

Also, I think that I've only put about 1 rank in extra spell points as I never run out of SP anyway (I used 2 normal SP pots in epic devil assault - 0 majors). EDQ is fun and maybe some day I'll solo heal it but I still have a fair bit of gear to go (GS SP item, archmagi, superior ardor VIII clickies for example).

How in the blue blazes do you not run out of SP? I run out of SP so fast on my FvS it isn't funny, and mind you, I don't go using all my metamagics at once 24/7. Guess maybe I shouldn't have dumped CHA.

[Jaid314]

How in the blue blazes do you not run out of SP? I run out of SP so fast on my FvS it isn't funny, and mind you, I don't go using all my metamagics at once 24/7. Guess maybe I shouldn't have dumped CHA.

he was probably in a group that was a either better geared, better organised, or both, compared to the ones you've been in.

"ideally" you should have everything CC'd constantly, with one or two melee stunners (ideally monks) with high DC stunning a target, with everyone then gathering around to melee it down, then moving to the next.

obviously, this ideal situation doesn't always happen... but when it does, it's quite nice :P

[wax_on_wax_off]

Even melee FvS can still do some decent healing, though maybe not as much as clerics can. Think of it as a non-tank fighter in a way; they may not have the best healing capabilities, but they can do still some decent healing, just how a fighter has plenty of spare feats to take all the shield blocking feats and tank in a normal quest. Hell, to be honest, before I got heal, I just used a maximized cure serious serious to do some healing, and it worked just fine in my parties. It kinda stuns me to think about how I never took cure critical wounds...




How in the blue blazes do you not run out of SP? I run out of SP so fast on my FvS it isn't funny, and mind you, I don't go using all my metamagics at once 24/7. Guess maybe I shouldn't have dumped CHA.

I'm more willing to take my WF FvS into epics than what I am my RS splashed cleric due to SP differences, 1700 vs 2200.

Not running out of SP is trusting people not to die when you take an extra second before hitting mass heal. Sometimes they do, then you yell at them for being squishy and tell them to get less aggro.

he was probably in a group that was a either better geared, better organised, or both, compared to the ones you've been in.

"ideally" you should have everything CC'd constantly, with one or two melee stunners (ideally monks) with high DC stunning a target, with everyone then gathering around to melee it down, then moving to the next.

obviously, this ideal situation doesn't always happen... but when it does, it's quite nice :P

I think the most ideal thing about the situation was that everyone in melee had more than 500 HP so I had a bit more leniency to hit mass heal a lot more rather than having to reactively heal with mass cures which is less SP efficient.

[Tirisha]

1000th Post! Geez I need a life.



It was Epic Devil Assault which was said in an earlier post. Apparently one of the toughest quests in the game, worth 2 dungeon tokens too!

This suggestion of taking everything that increases your healing ability is silly. The return on investment on the higher tiers of criticals is simply not worth it (I would love to see some math one way or another). I have maxed out Life Magic and then spread the rest of my APs around to where they are needed (tanking/DPS). Also, I think that I've only put about 1 rank in extra spell points as I never run out of SP anyway (I used 2 normal SP pots in epic devil assault - 0 majors). EDQ is fun and maybe some day I'll solo heal it but I still have a fair bit of gear to go (GS SP item, archmagi, superior ardor VIII clickies for example).

Lol in regards to healing crits it is more useful when you use Cure mass spells, I have them maxed out cause, as a DPS build I tend not to use Mass heal. Also some WF Barbs in Sarlona can use the extra crit multiplier when they are tanking. I don't really see too many other enhancements to take though if a pre came out I could understand. droping say the 3rd or maybe 2nd tier of the crit multiplier enhancements, though personally I'll drop Wand/scroll mastery 3 and 4 first. the crit enhancements really shine when you spam the sov. end cap CLWs spell 24/7.

Edit: I was referring more to Feat selection at the time, though I don't really see why it would be silly to focus on healing first, then dps, FVS dps contribution is modest at best and a dps focused fvs is barely better dps than one who focused on healing first (though the same could be said about healing depending on feats and quest difficulty).

[wax_on_wax_off]

Lol in regards to healing crits it is more useful when you use Cure mass spells, I have them maxed out cause, as a DPS build I tend not to use Mass heal. Also some WF Barbs in Sarlona can use the extra crit multiplier when they are tanking. I don't really see too many other enhancements to take though if a pre came out I could understand. droping say the 3rd or maybe 2nd tier of the crit multiplier enhancements, though personally I'll drop Wand/scroll mastery 3 and 4 first. the crit enhancements really shine when you spam the sov. end cap CLWs spell 24/7.

Edit: I was referring more to Feat selection at the time, though I don't really see why it would be silly to focus on healing first, then dps, FVS dps contribution is modest at best and a dps focused fvs is barely better dps than one who focused on healing first (though the same could be said about healing depending on feats and quest difficulty).

I completely agree with Life Magic IV, Wand and Scroll Mastery I being priorities. After that, DPS or DCs are a better focus for FvS (DPS or Evoker/CC respectively) as the return on investment drops off quite a lot when looking at critical chance or critical multiplier.

A DPS focused FvS with well chosen enhancements can contribute up to 85% of the DPS (apparently) which is pretty decent, this is of course while being able to heal effectively as well. However, if you only start picking up DPS enhancements after you max out all of the healing related enhancements (wand scroll mastery II-IV, multiplier I-III, chance I-III) then you'll never achieve these DPS ratings.

Additionally, on my WF FvS I'm quite capable of tanking numerous raids if correctly geared (VoD and reavers only so far but I'm young) and with relevant enhancements (WF brute fighting, healers friend, toughness, constitution, DR, power attack, attack boosts). However, there isn't enough APs to get all of these and to max out all the healing stuff (I have wand and scroll mastery I, Critical chance I, Life Magic IV, SP I) and this is enough. I'm confident that it is well within my characters capabilities to solo heal a raid.

[Tirisha]

I completely agree with Life Magic IV, Wand and Scroll Mastery I being priorities. After that, DPS or DCs are a better focus for FvS (DPS or Evoker/CC respectively) as the return on investment drops off quite a lot when looking at critical chance or critical multiplier.

A DPS focused FvS with well chosen enhancements can contribute up to 85% of the DPS (apparently) which is pretty decent, this is of course while being able to heal effectively as well. However, if you only start picking up DPS enhancements after you max out all of the healing related enhancements (wand scroll mastery II-IV, multiplier I-III, chance I-III) then you'll never achieve these DPS ratings.

Additionally, on my WF FvS I'm quite capable of tanking numerous raids if correctly geared (VoD and reavers only so far but I'm young) and with relevant enhancements (WF brute fighting, healers friend, toughness, constitution, DR, power attack, attack boosts). However, there isn't enough APs to get all of these and to max out all the healing stuff (I have wand and scroll mastery I, Critical chance I, Life Magic IV, SP I) and this is enough. I'm confident that it is well within my characters capabilities to solo heal a raid.

lol I'm a human so my AP is pretty loose I got 6 points wrapped up into healing amp and the remaining points is enough to grab pretty much every fvs enhancement I could want, though as a WF I can see AP being a little more tight. Though as I said before critting hard may be more appealing on a toon that has negative healing amp.
Still if you are gonna go healing focused you might as well not do it half heart-ed, you might even consider yourself healing specced if you did. Not saying it's better than a DPS focus I'm just saying there is DPS FVSs that prioritize healing first and there are DPS FVSs that prioritize DPS that's all. Not that the one can't DPS, just not as good as the other, not that the one can't heal, just not as good as the other, that's how I view Healing Specced.

[Nightstalkyr]

[quote=Dozen_Black_Roses;3565860]

Another classic blond moment for those that know me!

I love your blond moments!! Granted, at your age, I guess they should be easily forgiven!

[taurean430]

Understandable, I'm interested to learn which quest you ran *in case I missed it* What I mean too say is the more difficult the quest is; better yet the more incompetent your party may be the more you will see the benefit of your metamagic feats. You could live without them and function quite nicely, It's just I wouldn't recommend say Solo healing EDQ. I believe a previous post put it better than me by saying healing specced means taking everything that can improve your healing first then taking whatever secondary function you might want. be it DPS or Casting power. This is the approach that I made with my main and favorite toon, though I don't believe it's the intended quest by the Party leader in question (or in general what the quest commonly means) I think it's just a polite way of asking do you heal *Prioritize healing over dps* or Can you keep us healed in this quest *are you skilled enough to heal this quest* Which in all right a leader should be allowed to ask.

On a Side note I think being more "healing specced" indirectly increases your ability to DPS, If I'm casting twice as powerful heals as you, then it may be reasonable to say that throughout the coarse of the quest I spent half as much time healing as you did, using that extra time to DPS or Cast depending on the build. That being said I would consider leaving Maximize on and seeing how it effects your play. I know that if you adjust your heals accordingly not only could you save SP on more efficient casting but you could spend more time beating your enemies into the dirt with that good old WF PA.

I've yet to run into any in game situation where maximize was necessary for anything aside from a blade barrier or offensively cast spell.

Your side note confuses me a bit so I hesitate to comment. What do you interpret healing specced to mean?

ETA: Scratch that, just read your other commentary...

Life magic is definitely necessary. The other enhancement lines become convenient depending on the style and skill of the individual player. Just as there are players I know that raid heal without any additional enhancements; there are also players that raid heal with them all. I think that people become confused regarding the numbers their heals generate from time to time. And knowing the right kind of heal or cure to throw is not only mana effecient... it's also a sign of skill.

[Tirisha]

I've yet to run into any in game situation where maximize was necessary for anything aside from a blade barrier or offensively cast spell.

Your side note confuses me a bit so I hesitate to comment. What do you interpret healing specced to mean?

ETA: Scratch that, just read your other commentary...

Life magic is definitely necessary. The other enhancement lines become convenient depending on the style and skill of the individual player. Just as there are players I know that raid heal without any additional enhancements; there are also players that raid heal with them all. I think that people become confused regarding the numbers their heals generate from time to time. And knowing the right kind of heal or cure to throw is not only mana effecient... it's also a sign of skill.

Maximize isn't Necessary But it certainly makes healing easier *when using mass cures* Some people use mostly mass heal which could be done with a decent group in a lot of high level content. But when you're running epics and mobs are dropping comet falls for 300 damage a pop, You don't necessarily want to stand up and drop a mass cure for 150 when max can push it into the 250s range. You can't as a FVS cast more efficient Cure Mass spells than ones enhanced by Maximize, Empower and Empower heal feats, if you run the math you'll know this too be true. *enhancements and Ardor clickies are Additive bonuses but meta-magic feats are multiplicative. Some say over-healing effects the efficiency but truthfully you can over-heal just as easily with a spell that hits for 90 as you can with a spell that hits for 250 in fact, most noob healers I've ran with, drop cures for 90 like it was going out of style and burn through their SP like it was Cancerous.

[taurean430]

Maximize isn't Necessary But it certainly makes healing easier *when using mass cures* Some people use mostly mass heal which could be done with a decent group in a lot of high level content. But when you're running epics and mobs are dropping comet falls for 300 damage a pop, You don't necessarily want to stand up and drop a mass cure for 150 when max can push it into the 250s range. You can't as a FVS cast more efficient Cure Mass spells than ones enhanced by Maximize, Empower and Empower heal feats, if you run the math you'll know this too be true. *enhancements and Ardor clickies are Additive bonuses but meta-magic feats are multiplicative. Some say over-healing effects the efficiency but truthfully you can over-heal just as easily with a spell that hits for 90 as you can with a spell that hits for 250 in fact, most noob healers I've ran with, drop cures for 90 like it was going out of style and burn through their SP like it was Cancerous.

I've run a fair amount of epics with my guild and in pugs and I'm convinced so far that using maximized mass cures is more of a panic response. The goal of any player, especially in an epic should be not to die. That includes not running through the epic trap or neglecting casting mobs.

In the situation you describe, you can accomplish the same using more mana efficient methods. While I understand the need some people have to overheal that are unfamiliar with either the quest or the party, it doesn't make it efficient imo. I've been of the opinion that the difference in competency in party healing is proportional to how much of the blue bar is left following the confrontation. Even spending 25 additional spell points where one could spend 10 additional is not recommended. If the party requires a maximized anything following cometfall, there are much bigger problems to address.

[Tirisha]

I've run a fair amount of epics with my guild and in pugs and I'm convinced so far that using maximized mass cures is more of a panic response. The goal of any player, especially in an epic should be not to die. That includes not running through the epic trap or neglecting casting mobs.

In the situation you describe, you can accomplish the same using more mana efficient methods. While I understand the need some people have to overheal that are unfamiliar with either the quest or the party, it doesn't make it efficient imo. I've been of the opinion that the difference in competency in party healing is proportional to how much of the blue bar is left following the confrontation. Even spending 25 additional spell points where one could spend 10 additional is not recommended. If the party requires a maximized anything following cometfall, there are much bigger problems to address.

max empowered empower heal CSWM hits for about as much as the Comet fall, *maybe a little less* If he hits for 300 and you hit for 150, you look silly. if the caster is CCed before he gets it off then there is no harm in DPSing till the party has taken 1/2 of their health since no spike damage is occurring, in this case most melees should have around 500 hp, in which a full max/empower/empower heal CSWM would bring them either just up too full or close too it depending on how close they are too 500HP. A well geared rogue would have around mid too high 400s *one I run with most has 477 unraged* so Overhealing is certainly not an issue. The only more effecient way to play it is to use mass heal, but when mass heal isn't viable you're gonna benefit from maxed out cure mass spells. In the case that something does go too hell *in most pug situations this is likely* hitting your heals hard is essentially gonna be better, since I've been in situations were say the caster gets popped and now nothings CCed and people are getting pounded on as hard as if they were staring the EDQ in the face. *Also in Sarlona that's how we do EDQ, mass cure through it, in which case max gives a strong advantage in SP conservation, and makes it more possible too solo heal without blowing your pot stash.

You simply can't argue that maximize doesn't make your mass cures more efficient. You may try to argue overhealing makes it bad but that is silly because you can overheal just as easily without max as you can with it, it's all a matter of timing and skill, in which case mastering your timing with max active is gonna provide more SP efficient heals and minimize the amount of time spent healing. The feat is worth taking trust me, if you don't have it don't sweet it, it's not mandatory but if you do have it I would strongly recommend using it.

[MsEricka]

The correct answer to this question is, if you all pike at the entrance and let me solo this, you won't need to be healed.

If that's not acceptable to the party, just destruct everything that looks like it might hurt a party member so no healing is required.

[taurean430]

max empowered empower heal CSWM hits for about as much as the Comet fall, *maybe a little less* If he hits for 300 and you hit for 150, you look silly.

Definitely less. Have you read this thread by chance? It's wonderfully presented and addresses the thinking behind this part of your statement:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...healing+stages

if the caster is CCed before he gets it off then there is no harm in DPSing till the party has taken 1/2 of their health since no spike damage is occurring, in this case most melees should have around 500 hp, in which a full max/empower/empower heal CSWM would bring them either just up too full or close too it depending on how close they are too 500HP. A well geared rogue would have around mid too high 400s *one I run with most has 477 unraged* so Overhealing is certainly not an issue.

This would depend on the party composition. As I run melee FvS I see no problem with the use of dps on a divine. You can however keep the party up simultaneously without the use of maximized overhealing. A practiced hand can do it without any metas at all. Or, if a meta needs use, toggling off the inappropriate meta and toggling on the needed one.

The only more effecient way to play it is to use mass heal, but when mass heal isn't viable you're gonna benefit from maxed out cure mass spells. In the case that something does go too hell *in most pug situations this is likely* hitting your heals hard is essentially gonna be better, since I've been in situations were say the caster gets popped and now nothings CCed and people are getting pounded on as hard as if they were staring the EDQ in the face. *Also in Sarlona that's how we do EDQ, mass cure through it, in which case max gives a strong advantage in SP conservation, and makes it more possible too solo heal without blowing your pot stash.

The frequent use of maximized cures in an extended battle often leads to pot use. If you are okay with that there is nothing really to debate. I personally am not and avoid it whenever possible, which is roughly over 90% of any runs I've been in to date. The runs still finish without people dying. As I've tried to convey; there is no need to strive to keep red bars full 100% of the time. There is a difference between sudden spike damage on the party versus what is standard. These require different responses to make the most use out of one's ability to heal.

You simply can't argue that maximize doesn't make your mass cures more efficient.

It doesn't. It's a waste of spell points. The only exception that comes to mind is a party full of warforged without any healing amplification and adamantine body consistently taking heavy damage. Even then there are better options I believe.

You may try to argue overhealing makes it bad...

It is. It's not efficient compared to giving what is needed. And only what is needed. I believe there was mention of encountering others who have also assumed a party healing role running dry of spell points in record time. Poor timing and or poor choices in what and how much to give catalyze this.

...but that is silly because you can overheal just as easily without max as you can with it, it's all a matter of timing and skill, in which case mastering your timing with max active is gonna provide more SP efficient heals and minimize the amount of time spent healing.

On this we can agree. Skill and practice make one good at party healing. Not overdoing it and wasting spell points that would be needed elsewhere.

...The feat is worth taking trust me, if you don't have it don't sweet it, it's not mandatory but if you do have it I would strongly recommend using it.

In my experiences to date, the feat has more effective impact on offensive spells and very little overall impact in party healing. In fact, I cannot think of a single time in well over a year on any of my FvS builds that I felt a maximized cure was warranted. I can appreciate what you are saying, but it just doesn't jive with everything I've learned. Healing using a maximized cure method as opposed other metas/other options is a very quick route from 2850 to 0 spellpoints.

[aristarchus1000]

In my experiences to date, the feat has more effective impact on offensive spells and very little overall impact in party healing. In fact, I cannot think of a single time in well over a year on any of my FvS builds that I felt a maximized cure was warranted. I can appreciate what you are saying, but it just doesn't jive with everything I've learned. Healing using a maximized cure method as opposed other metas/other options is a very quick route from 2850 to 0 spellpoints.

Gonna agree with this. I've been healing all end-game content (raid/epic) with a FvS for over a year, and using a Mass Cure is simply inefficient, and only used as a last resort. If you look at the math, you'll find that the Mass Heal has almost double the efficiency of a Mass Cure under ideal conditions.

Conditions are almost never ideal. Because of this, an "inefficient" Mass Heal is often more efficient than an even an "ideal" mass Cure.

I have maximize, but I use it pretty rarely. Usually in order to save a group after things have gotten messed up. You're not looking an mana efficiency at that point, but just trying to save a wipe.