So many lfms for healers...improve divine crowd control, offensive casting.

[clkpacker]

I think the issue here is, in part, the way epics are currently structured.

That said, there are about 50 more arcane spells than divine spells, and I certainly wouldn't mind some more options.

[Nick_RC]

Divine casters wis based are totally fine in epics.

Shhh you dont count.

[BlackSteel]

divine spells could use some love, I agree.

currently all the divine spells are made obsolete by whats available for arcanes. no point throwing a command when the monsters are all held.

atm my take is simply any healer that simply heals in most epics is wasting a spot. Nothing prevents a healer from whipping out a lvl draining weapon and going to town on held trash, and occasionally tossing a quicken heal if something gets ugly. The only time the party really needs to be babysat by a healer is on bosses that cant otherwise be contained.

of course all of this drastically changes if you're grouped up with a caster thats not worth a ****

[voodoogroves]

Hey Nick, this is why I think you're seeing a number of folks look at non-traditional builds JUST for epics. Non-WF FVS. FVS/Clerics that TWF heavy picks w/ a fighter dip. Melee Spellsingers. I used to have a bard that wasn't so hot for healing, but no longer as at 20 that's quicker than not.

What works 1-19 and the last content at 20 just doens't seem to cut the mustard in epics.



Here's what I want: To play a divine caster like I would in PNP.

Not exactly the same mechanically, but in an optimized PNP game your divine caster is walking around with divine favor, righteous might, divine power on all the time. With SPC that's Visage of the Deity, the Vigor line. With Complete Divine, that's Divine Metamagics. I'm not touching Shapechange, Polymorph or later PREs like from Complete Champion / Bo9S (cough cough Ruby Knight).


I get in MMO-land you need to strive for balance ... and the desire to have a healing-type role is expected.

I'd like my cleric to be able to achieve the same level of badness that you can in PNP without tossing those MMO-expected roles completely out the window.

My FVS experiment is an attempt at this; I'll TR her soon with some of what I've learned taken into account. The exact mix I choose on the next life is going to be highly gear-dependent though, sadly.

Maybe some of the eventual PREs will mimic this.

[voodoogroves]

Divine casters wis based are totally fine in epics.

One of the things that isn't really discussed is what works (1) for new players on early toons (2) for expereinced players, still early in a toon's life cycle (3) for first-life toons who spend a long time getting the gear and (4) what works with an experienced player on a later life in a multi-life toon who's had plenty of time to gather the resources required.



Rogues are hard for (1) and (2) in general. So are WIS-based casters. Once you get those TOD rings and greensteel, your WIS-based DCs get pretty decent. Add in the right other gear ... looking solid. Throw in some number of past lives for the 4 more evocation DC or 9 more spell penetration, etc. etc. That's a different story. Joe can't start playing and build that quickly, just like he'll likely cap his first CON 14 rogue before he hits 400 HP and gathers the materials to make his first tier3 greensteel.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

why should a 'healer role' be able to do decent dps, crowd control, or anything(besides healing) in, and the keyword here is, epics

Don't worry, with a little more time playing you will learn how to play the game.

Try rolling a fvs or cleric one day, it might help you learn

[sirgog]

One of the things that isn't really discussed is what works (1) for new players on early toons (2) for expereinced players, still early in a toon's life cycle (3) for first-life toons who spend a long time getting the gear and (4) what works with an experienced player on a later life in a multi-life toon who's had plenty of time to gather the resources required.



Rogues are hard for (1) and (2) in general. So are WIS-based casters. Once you get those TOD rings and greensteel, your WIS-based DCs get pretty decent. Add in the right other gear ... looking solid. Throw in some number of past lives for the 4 more evocation DC or 9 more spell penetration, etc. etc. That's a different story. Joe can't start playing and build that quickly, just like he'll likely cap his first CON 14 rogue before he hits 400 HP and gathers the materials to make his first tier3 greensteel.

Noone doubts that you can get a high DC on offensive divine spells.

What everyone that has run Epics knows is that the ability to throw a DC 35 Mass Hold Monster is far, far more powerful than the ability to throw a DC 41 Greater Command, Cometfall and/or Bladebarrier.

That's comparing an ungeared WF sorc to a geared-to-the-hilt divine. Replace that Sorc with a Wizard, and it is even more ridiculous.

[wax_on_wax_off]

In response to the spells....here's just a few off the top of my head that are offensive divine spells......Storm of Vengeance (believe it's 9th level), Blasphemy (7th level) and Earthquake (8th or 9th can't remember).

Not sure how well these would work in Epics....what we really need are Druids....I know they get FoD, Reverse Gravity (Stormreaver anyone?), Whirlwind....plus Heal and Mass Heal....

Druid's don't get mass heal as all of their mass healing spells are deferred by 1 level (at least masses, there is 1 level which doesn't have any cures in it, maybe be 5, may also be 2 or 3).

However, regeneration gives 20% hp/tick or something which is an awesome spell.

Some extra offensive cleric spells would be very cool. I think every divine caster should be able to heal, I just think that most of the time they are better off doing something else.

[pSINNa]

I agree with the OP, the options are limited if you're playing a lot of divine characters and want to get into epic.

I actually TR'd 3 different divine toons going for massive dps focus with improved trip and stun options in my last round of divine builds because i wanted to contribute in epic (in addition to healing/buffing of course), but also wanted to continue to play divine character classes.

It seemed my only option, and i agree that if divines had their spell selection widened a little, we may see some other paths that could be usefull other then the full melee divine.

Coit out~

[Auran82]

Healers (and their spells to an extent) are not the problem here.

Epic is the problem and going hand in hand with that, the d20 system and escalating DCs on the most popular CC (Mass hold, stunning blow/fist, Web and FtS)

And to those who suggest that clerics and FvS should go back to healing, I'm sure you think that fighters and Paladins should all be 'tanks' as well.

[ycy1975]

Healers will show up when those n@ked melees put on their armor back and defend themselves well.

Otherwise I will let all my Cleric/FvS chilling in my account just because I hate how fast melees taking damage at same time, then they blame you for not doing your healing job.


How can I do something that is impossible to me? For example, healing 4 melees that taking damage at same time scattering around the battlefield, behind obstacles AND I am oom?

Guess my healers will stay chilled, good luck hunting down healers out there.

[TDarkchylde]

/signed

Yeah, I need something for my Evoker to do besides pike and hit the "Heal" key once in a while in epics.

Swinging a woo-woo stick doesn't count.

[Four20]

Just because a class has the cleric or fvS does not in anyway put them in a healing role, granted it is expected that players with these classes be able to perform healing as needed but in DDO there is no defined role for any class

I agree with the OP here as well i would love for my spell caster focused FvS to be able to do more in epics than healbot

don't get me wrong. not a role for the class, a role for the party.

it's like a caster complaining they can't wail/finger anyone in epics. some strategies work in epics, some don't.

News flash. There are no healer's in DDO. Instead there are Clerics, Favoured Soul's and bad players who think that there are healer's in DDO.

oh, thank you ddo compendium

nice shot saying that im a bad player btw. not that i play the healer. . .err, cleric or favored soul(cause i said cleric or favored soul, does that make me a good player now? ), but groups have roles. tank, dps, HEALER, caster, etc.

you may 'say' you're doing dps with your HEALER because you swing your weapon between heals, and that's cute and all, but the real dps is going to be coming from the melee in the group.

i won't deny the benefit of casters and healers swinging the dreamspitter between heals and mass holds. and i thank you for tickling them until i get there

[bryanmeerkat]

why should a 'healer role' be able to do decent dps, crowd control, or anything(besides healing) in, and the keyword here is, epics

Because watching blue bars is a boring way to spend an hour , its also a waste if you cant do anything in between .

There is currently only one PRE line available for clerics and none for FVs , maybe this will bring something intresting .

[PopeJual]

nice shot saying that im a bad player btw. not that i play the healer. . .err, cleric or favored soul(cause i said cleric or favored soul, does that make me a good player now? ), but groups have roles. tank, dps, HEALER, caster, etc.

Unfortunately, Epic really seems to only have the roles of DPS, Crowd Control, Nannybot and Piker.

you may 'say' you're doing dps with your HEALER because you swing your weapon between heals, and that's cute and all, but the real dps is going to be coming from the melee in the group.

i won't deny the benefit of casters and healers swinging the dreamspitter between heals and mass holds. and i thank you for tickling them until i get there

If 5 enemies are held and a non-melee or two can take out one of them while the DPS takes out the other 4, then that's a Good Thing(tm). You just have to remember which effects play nice together and which effects dont' play nice together.

It's just like running through Amrath quests with 2 folks weilding DPS weapons and two folks weilding Vorpal weapons. The quest will be faster and easier if everyone is using Vorpals or everyone is using DPS since Vorpals aren't all that impressive when they're taking down an enemy that's already slivered.

[TheSavage]

Even barbs and fighters can make a decent archer build for themselves.

To be honest, not even rangers can make a decent archer build in DDO as it stands right now...

My only epic capable toon is an assassin, but when I play epics I know that my PRIMARY function as a rogue (even one that's not a mechanic) is to get those epic traps, and I have geared my toon accordingly... You'd better believe that if I get accepted into a group and say "I can't do epic traps" I'd be getting Das Boot!

In non-epic content I consistently dish out the most DPS in any group, but when playing epics I have to adjust... It's the same with Cleric/FvS builds... Keep the group up, anything else you bring to the table is gravy...

Epic content is a whole different ballgame, and I personally enjoy the challenge it brings (I wish more content would be ported to epic) and you could definitely say that the "problem" of pigeonholing a class is due to epics, not the classes themselves.

[krtkoo]

Hi, I dont see a problem here at all. Imo epics are designed that all classes are going back to their main roles – fighters (dps or tanks) barbarians (dps), rogues (traps + dps), divine (healing) etc etc. I agree that in epics you just need good dps and good arcane for cc, and some healing for final boss. But you need this only if you have very good equipped toon, know the quest and you have more than average player skills. When you are running epics with pple who match all those criteria, then yes playing a healer can be boring in such group.

But many many ppl just need healers in epics, and when I remember my first epics: we were happy when we had a tank in our group – it was a lot easier and cheaper for resources. Well now I can laugh at posts like someone post here in this forum, that he used 20 major pots for healing during boss fight in epic into the deep, but it wasnt always so.

And mby if you are not satisfied with a clerics / fvs role in epics – dont play that class in epic quests. What would you expect to do there? Do you want to do cc like arcane or beat mobs like fighter? Sry but this is not primary role for a cleric or fvs. You shouldnt have better dps as fighter or other dps class and you shouldnt have better cc than arcanes. If you as a cleric or fvs will be better in dps or cc you would make other class obsolete. If you think your role as a healer is obsolete in epic, than there are 3 possibilities:
1. epics should be harder so real healing and divine buffing is necessary (dont think this will happen, cause many pple wouldnt be able run them)
2. start pugging with less experienced players who need more healing
3. dont play cleric / fvs in epic.

[voodoogroves]

Noone doubts that you can get a high DC on offensive divine spells.

What everyone that has run Epics knows is that the ability to throw a DC 35 Mass Hold Monster is far, far more powerful than the ability to throw a DC 41 Greater Command, Cometfall and/or Bladebarrier.

That's comparing an ungeared WF sorc to a geared-to-the-hilt divine. Replace that Sorc with a Wizard, and it is even more ridiculous.

I'm not disagreeing with this; I'm taking it a step further. Getting the DCs into the range to be useful isn't trivial for a divine (unlike, say, a 28pt first-life archmage), and once you do get your DCs up the best you can hope for is what ... heightened soundburst?

Agreeing w/ you ... once you get to the end it isn't that useful ... but getting to the end is not as easy for a divine.

[bryanmeerkat]

Hi, I dont see a problem here at all. Imo epics are designed that all classes are going back to their main roles – fighters (dps or tanks) barbarians (dps), rogues (traps + dps), divine (healing) etc etc. I agree that in epics you just need good dps and good arcane for cc, and some healing for final boss. But you need this only if you have very good equipped toon, know the quest and you have more than average player skills. When you are running epics with pple who match all those criteria, then yes playing a healer can be boring in such group.

But many many ppl just need healers in epics, and when I remember my first epics: we were happy when we had a tank in our group – it was a lot easier and cheaper for resources. Well now I can laugh at posts like someone post here in this forum, that he used 20 major pots for healing during boss fight in epic into the deep, but it wasnt always so.

And mby if you are not satisfied with a clerics / fvs role in epics – dont play that class in epic quests. What would you expect to do there? Do you want to do cc like arcane or beat mobs like fighter? Sry but this is not primary role for a cleric or fvs. You shouldnt have better dps as fighter or other dps class and you shouldnt have better cc than arcanes. If you as a cleric or fvs will be better in dps or cc you would make other class obsolete. If you think your role as a healer is obsolete in epic, than there are 3 possibilities:
1. epics should be harder so real healing and divine buffing is necessary (dont think this will happen, cause many pple wouldnt be able run them)
2. start pugging with less experienced players who need more healing
3. dont play cleric / fvs in epic.

So you think making something epic should involve making everyone having to revert to pressing the same 3 buttons one after the other .

Wizard presses :tab : mass hold monster
Cleric presses :F? : heal
Barb presses : tab :with auto attack on .

Equals Win

For me to make epic , more epic you should have players have to be more varied in their actions rather than less varied .

[krtkoo]

So you think making something epic should involve making everyone having to revert to pressing the same 3 buttons one after the other .

Wizard presses :tab : mass hold monster
Cleric presses :F? : heal
Barb presses : tab :with auto attack on .

Equals Win

For me to make epic , more epic you should have players have to be more varied in their actions rather than less varied .

I didnt saye that. I said that in epic quests classes are forced to do what is their main role. Yes I know what ddo say about cleric - divine avenger blablabla but cleric (or fvs) is the best class for healing (mby for harm spells too, but they are not worth imo), so they are forced to heal. but pple are angry that they are forced just to heal. yes you can dps od cc between healing but you will alway be less usefull then an arcane or fighter.

I am asking again: what type of crowd control or what dps would be enough to satisfy you as a cleric? but remember that your dps or cc shouldnt be better or even equal as arcane cc or fighter (barbar, ranger etc) dps - otherwise such class would become obsolete.

And I am full aware of the fact that well played bard in good group can replace cleric in epic, but such cases are rly rare and you can see them in achievements threads