Remove Ship Buffs

[Calebro]

Hehe.

Well, exactly what makes them overpowered in content with mobs that die in one hit?

+2 to every stat, +2 to hit, +2 damage, natural AC, +1 to every skill, 30 point resist, etc etc etc, all at level 1.
And you don't think that's OP.

I find it funny that most longer term players constantly ask for less Easy Buttons, and constantly complain that the game has been dumbed down so much, but when these buffs are called into question they don't have a problem with it at all.

So let me ask you, do you think the game has been dumbed down too much? Do you think it's too easy? Do you want more challenge? Do you want less Easy Buttons?
If you answered Yes to these questions then how can you think they aren't OP?

These were valid complaints before guild ships ever existed. Now, with them, it basically means that if you die anytime at ALL before level 10 or so while running level appropriate content, for any reason, you need to learn to play.
These buffs simply compound the issue.

[Razcar]

Heck no.

Completely off-topic, mea culpa, but it's made me slightly culture-curious: Is "Hell" really a cuss-word in the USA? It's not blocked by the forum's word filter, which is otherwise at the predictible Tele-tubbie level. And I suppose "heck" is a soccer-momification of "hell", no?

[Chris79]

I'm thinking of putting something new in my LFMs as I level my TR....

"If you need ship buffs to survive, GTFO"

that's 'fudge' btw

[Nospheratus]

The majority of players (powergamers included) don't have +2 to stats in the ship or 30 res.

I don't know about other people, but in general I don't bother wasting time with the ship buffs except when leveling and going into a high exp quest, or when waiting for other people to fill a raid/epic group...

I think the ship buffs are decent, wouldn't upset me if they got changed/nerfed though. And to be honest, wouldn't make a difference for me!

But then again, my ship doesn't have +2 to all stats and +30 resist to everything and maybe that is why I fail to see their OP effect

BTW: When you are saying that they are OP or not refer to the appropriate effects since they can be very different!

[dunklezhan]

My only concern about ship buffs is that they start designing content assuming people have the buffs. THEN they'd be ruining the game, disincentivising small/no guilds etc etc.

[Calebro]

The majority of players (powergamers included) don't have +2 to stats in the ship or 30 res.

I don't know about other people, but in general I don't bother wasting time with the ship buffs except when leveling and going into a high exp quest, or when waiting for other people to fill a raid/epic group...

I think the ship buffs are decent, wouldn't upset me if they got changed/nerfed though. And to be honest, wouldn't make a difference for me!

But then again, my ship doesn't have +2 to all stats and +30 resist to everything and maybe that is why I fail to see their OP effect

BTW: When you are saying that they are OP or not refer to the appropriate effects since they can be very different!

Look at it this way:
Ship buffs offer the equivalent of a ridiculous amount of past life feats, all for free.
+2 to hit = 2 fighter lives
+2 damage, [+4 saves vs fear] = 2 monk lives
+1 skills = rogue past life
+1 DCs enchantements/illusions = half of 1 bard life
10% healing amp = 2 paladin lives
30 resists = 15 ranger lives
+1 spell pen = 1 FvS life
+1 DCs evocation = half of 1 wizard life
+2 to all stats = completionist

+1 saves, a +1 attack rolls, +1 stacking bonus to Natural Armor
+1 stacking natural AC, +5 stacking bonus to balance/haggle
DR 1/-, stacking natural AC +1 = these three combine for 1 ranger life, plus other bonuses

Plus other things not even mentioned that have no class past life equivalent.

That's a total of 2 fighter, 2 monk, 1 rogue, 2 paladin, 16 ranger, 1 favored soul, half of 1 bard, half of 1 wizard, and completionist.
Plus a bunch of other stuff.
Available at level 1 for some guilds.

You don't think they're OP?

[JollySwagMan]

Two tweaks/nerfs I would support:

1. Character level appropriate.

2. Limit the max amount of ship buffs active at one time on a player.


These two changes, especially the second one, would help to address a few issues:

1. Ignorance of potions

2. Ignorance of simple tactics, such as avoiding enemy spells.

3. Players that *need* ship buffs at every opportunity

4. Too many things on the player examination panel. Yes, there is an option to get rid of the explanations, but that also eliminates the time left information.

I know that nerfing ship buffs wouldn't magically fix all of these issues, but I think it would help reduce the dependence upon them that some players seem to exhibit...

[Vellrad]

Look at it this way:
Ship buffs offer the equivalent of a ridiculous amount of past life feats, all for free.
+2 to hit = 2 fighter lives
+2 damage, [+4 saves vs fear] = 2 monk lives
+1 skills = rogue past life non stacking with any form of luck bonus
+1 DCs enchantements/illusions = half of 1 bard life non stacking with any item boosting DCs
10% healing amp = 2 paladin lives
30 resists = 15 ranger lives non stacking with spells
+1 spell pen = 1 FvS life non stacking with any item boosting spell penetration
+1 DCs evocation = half of 1 wizard life non stacking with any item boosting DCs
+2 to all stats = completionist

+1 saves, a +1 attack rolls, +1 stacking bonus to Natural Armor
+1 stacking natural AC, +5 stacking bonus to balance/haggle
DR 1/-, stacking natural AC +1 = these three combine for 1 ranger life, plus other bonuses

Plus other things not even mentioned that have no class past life equivalent.

That's a total of 2 fighter, 2 monk, 1 rogue, 2 paladin, 1 ranger, and completionist.
Plus a bunch of other stuff.
Available at level 1 for some guilds.

You don't think they're OP?

Fixed.
Remember, these buffs lasts to death, so week players won't benefit from them for to long

[Calebro]

Fixed.
Remember, these buffs lasts to death, so week players won't benefit from them for to long

I've already responded to that.

Now, with them, it basically means that if you die anytime at ALL before level 10 or so while running level appropriate content, for any reason, you need to learn to play.

The buffs aren't helping weaker players learn to play better. Instead they're carrying weaker players through levels unscathed, which means they are entering raids and tough quests without the ability they should have by that point.
This makes the guild ship buffs a liability, not a blessing.

[dunklezhan]

Fixed.
Remember, these buffs lasts to death, so week players won't benefit from them for to long

And time spent waiting for a group to form ticks away at the buffs, and time spent then getting to the quest ticks away at the buffs, and long quests remove the buffs before you get to the end fight when you could probably really use them.

Honestly, the main 'gamebreaking' effect of the buffs I see is the delay in actually getting started while everyone rushes off to get their buffs, beats down their target dummy etc...

I agree the buffs ought to be scaled so if you have the +2 stat bonuses you can only get a +1 until level 10 or so, the +30 resist ends up being 10/20/30 depending on character level etc.

But other than this - all the current content can be beaten without, so the only really justifiable reason beyond 'just because I can' for going for the buffs is if you're shortmanning on elite, or just want to get done faster for some reason (e.g. you're trying to run the full Deleras, CoT6 or other multiple quest chains in the same PuG). Or, of course, you know you've gimped something and you happen to have a buff that compensates.

But I wouldn't say remove them. Just perhaps tweak them so they don't trivialise content.

[Templarion]

My only concern about ship buffs is that they start designing content assuming people have the buffs. THEN they'd be ruining the game, disincentivising small/no guilds etc etc.

Good point Dunklezhan. That will probably happen eventually if buffs are not going to be nerfed.

I find it funny that most longer term players constantly ask for less Easy Buttons, and constantly complain that the game has been dumbed down so much, but when these buffs are called into question they don't have a problem with it at all.

That's what they are after all. Easy buttons. DDO was too easy already before the addition of ship buffs.

[Khanyth]

If you don't like them.... don't use them.

[Hendrik]

They're overpowered, easy mode, and are currently ruining the game. You are gimp if you don't use them because everyone else does. People even factor them into their planned builds. They're stupid. Do away with them and think of something else.

Experience shrines are cool.

Kool story bro.

I have a better idea;

Take the buffs off YOUR ship and leave MY ship alone.

There, your overpowered, easy mode, and game ruining buffs are no longer an issue for you.

[Tumarek]

I wouldnt mind see them go either... Espacially the energy resistance make a few lower level dungeons just far too easy... (taming the flames once was really a challenging quest, now its more like a hot shower)

Its not like the game is easy enough as it is atm. I really like to be challenged even on lower levels and yes i do pug (what makes an easy dungeon hard often enough).

To the "dont use them if you dont like them" crowed: Even if i dont take them someone will have them all on and again just run through dungeons he would wipe in the first room without them... So it doesnt really help the "game is too easy" problem...

P.S. my guild does have all the buffs.

[Ungood]

Kool story bro.

I have a better idea;

Take the buffs off YOUR ship and leave MY ship alone.

There, your overpowered, easy mode, and game ruining buffs are no longer an issue for you.

/agreed

If you don't like ship buffs, you don't have to use them.

[Phidius]

...I don't know about other people, but in general I don't bother wasting time with the ship buffs except when leveling and going into a high exp quest, or when waiting for other people to fill a raid/epic group...

Yup - most of the time, I only get a buff because I'm visiting the guild bank to switch out some gear, and the kobold is standing next to the bank. I rarely take the time to beat down the practice dummy.

Nerf/remove anything you want, but leave the bank, mailbox, and bartender alone. I need my "Fortress of Solitude", tyvm.

[Ungood]

To the "dont use them if you dont like them" crowed: Even if i dont take them someone will have them all on and again just run through dungeons he would wipe in the first room without them...

If you like to be challenged so much, don't twink your toons, in fact, don't ever upgrade your gear or use enchantments, I am sure that would provide the challenge you seek, start a guild around that idea and remember not to put buffs on your ship,or better yet, don't get a ship at all.

[pSINNa]

I found it interesting that a lot of the ship buffs could be equated with past life feats, in many cases duplicating the exact affects that could be obtained.

So is it the buffs/affects being discussed that are themselves overpowered?

Or is it the fact that players through guild solidarity, rather then having spent 1000's of hours in game TR-ing and repeatedly running content n/n/n/n/n/h/e levelling over and over have access to them?

[Samiusbot]

No amount of buffs Ship or otherwise is going to make a bad player a good play or forgive a major misplay.

And once killed the buffs are gone.

So why are we thinking about removing options? Options are good, more options is way better then less options.

Op, do you twink? Over powered!

But it is an option, and that makes it alright.

[Eladiun]

/not signed

not overpowered. nothing spectacular.

You can however remove the stupid dummy and replace it with something that doesn't waste time and create annoyances. It's a cute idea but a PITA in practice.