The Seker Build - Kensai Tempest Wind Stance Melee DPS

[elixer1]

Hi All,

Yes, this is another exploiter build.
Yes, this resembles the Monster build.

I'm a newb to the forums, but have been playing DDO since the 16th level GH cap. I have many toons, some are badly built, some are well built. This build I have come up with though I thought was note worthy, and I was curious as to the opinions of others. I am happy to receive constructive criticism on this build, but please make sure it's constructive I have spent some time detailing the pros and cons of this build, please try not to simply re-iterate that

A little window dressing:

Seker (SECK-kar)
Also known as: Sacharis, Seger, Socharis, Sokar, Sokare, Sokaris

[pre]Early god of vegetation. Deity of the necropolis of Memphis. He is closely affiliated with Osiris.
Seker is shown as a seated hawk-headed man holding sovereignty emblems in his outstretched hand.
He is sometimes shown with the head of a man, holding a knife in each hand.

Dictionary of Ancient Deities
Patricia Turner, Charles Russell Coulter
Oxford University Press US, 2001, pg 418[/pre]
[hr]

Now for the good stuff:

7/7/6 Ftr/Mnk/Rgr
Kensai Tempest Greater Wind Stance DPS ninja

Variation on the Monster and Exploiter Builds from the DDO forums, but did the Enhancement front load instead of the just the class front load. (Anyone who plays DND, 3.5 and 3.0 knows all to well the Class front load problem, I wanted to see what could be done with the unique DDO mechanics and front loading)

Goal: Make a character with the highest attack speed possible.

Type: Melee DPS
Build: 32 point Elf
Difficulty: Intermediate (due to all the multiclassing)
Playability: Easy (Only requires two hot keys and some clickys)
Tested: Yes
Played Through to Level 20?: Yes
This exact plan?: No, modified Skills and a few enhancements.
Core concepts tested?: Yes

Pros:
- The fastest attack speed available (even with the TWF nerfs) Flurry of Blows, Greater Wind Stance, Tempest I, Fighter Haste +20%
- Evasion
- Moderate AC (low 50s)
- High HP (400-500)
- Fist of Light, Wholeness of Body self healing
- Ranger Spell List (Cure Wands!)
- Good Ranged (Rapid Shot and Bow Strength)
- Super Self reliant, especially with a pocket cleric
- Fast, Sprint Boost and Monk Base Speed Increase I
- No named loot required, +2 tomes are nice to have
- Elf enhancement bonuses to long swords
- You will be a jumping dynamo with Spring Attack.
- Like a monk, Shrines are usually not necessary.

Cons:
- Stuck with Longswords (A decent weapon, but hardly the best, but they are common!)
- Ranger Spells - only two spells Ram's Might, Elemental Resistance and Jump are the best ones. Each will have a 7 minute duration, so it's annoying to keep having to rebuff.
- Self Healing - Good for light mobs, not good for the heat of battle.
- Saves, All saves end up in the high 20s, with Reflex in the low 30s
- If you don't skip to level 4, you have to make some odd weapon choices before your get long swords as Ki weapons.
- No UMD
- Doesn't get Barkskin or Cure Light, and only gets to the second tier for level 1 spells (meaning the resistances only do 10 pts, jump is only a +10, etc.)
- Crits are frequent, but only x2.

Seker
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male -- DEX and Long Sword enhancements
(7 Fighter \ 7 Monk \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 387
Spell Points: 105 - More than enough, as you wil only have two spells
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 18
Will: 13

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23 25
Dexterity 16 18 22
Constitution 14 16 16
Intelligence 8 10 10
Wisdom 14 16 18
Charisma 8 10 10

- STR will be a 31 with a enhancement item, this would be a good use of a +3 tome, but not necessary, but this is also a good spot for the extra stat point you get with a TR.
- WIS is added to your AC, and determines your spell points, although I have never once ran out of spell points (only have two spells that last for 7 mins)
- Wind Stance will lower CON and increase DEX, but HP will still be around 500 by 20th, with the usual items of Minos Legens, CON +6, and Greater False Life item

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7


- You really only need tomes for STR, DEX, CON and WIS

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 5 10 10
Bluff -1 0 1
Concentration 6 24 27
Diplomacy -1 0 1
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle -1 0 0
Heal 2 4 4
Hide 3 6 6
Intimidate -1 0 1
Jump 7 24 24
Listen 2 4 6
Move Silently 3 6 6
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 0 0
Search -1 0 2
Spot 6 22 25
Swim 3 7 7
Tumble 5 20 20
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a


- Concentration of 30 is what you need your standing Ki to be at to do a finishing move at the beginning of an adventure, this is what it will be with a CON +6 item, let alone if you have a concentration item.
- Tumble will be at 30 with a DEX item in Windstance, which is one point from doing the cool back flips, but there are lots of ways to get the extra point. Tumble spell, Bard songs, potions, heroisim, recitation, prayer, etc.

Level 1 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I

Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Breezes
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Candles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Pebbles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Puddles
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I

- Need to be using Kama's or some other ki weapon at this point

Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Whirling Steel Strike
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I

- You can now use a longsword and a Kama

Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

- You can now use two long swords

Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I

Yay! Ram's might!

Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Aberration
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II

- Dex is getting nice and High, improving AC and Reflex save (with Evasion)

Level 10 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

Welcome to Tempest Hood! +10% stacking Melee alacrity, does not stack with Haste. The rest is now even easier.

Level 11 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Harmonious Balance (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Inevitable Dominion (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Still Mind
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II

- Welcome to Self healing

Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Magic
Feat: (Automatic) Slow Fall
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 13 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Damage
Feat: (Automatic) Purity of Body
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 14 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II

- Greater Wind Stance, only half the benefits stack with Tempest (+7.5% melee alacrity), now your DPS is in full swing.

Level 15 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Wholeness of Body
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II

- Now you can get back about 120 HP whenever you have enough Ki (You will be more limited by the 2 min cool down, than by Ki).

Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Concentration (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense
Enhancement: Kensei Longsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II

- Kensai! This build is essentially done here.

Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I

- Fighter Haste III, your Attack speed is unparalleled when you are Fighter Haste boosted and Haste Boosted.

Not every form of attack speed increase stacks perfectly, but they do stack. I hope to eventually include a video to illustrate.

Equipment:
Get a generic +6 item to each stat, except in INT and CHA
Get a full compliment of Long Swords (Two vorpal blades are so much fun!) and a few Nice Composite long Bows
Feel free to carry handwraps instead of other items for oozes and rust monsters.
A superior devotion I item goes along way to improving your healing finishing move (+50% healing)
Space reserved for Minos Legens - Check
Dragontouched robes/outfit easily allows for an ending AC of about 50, unbuffed
With monk slow fall and a high jump and tumble score, you can make do with just a feather fall clicky if you like (The fall from the inn in Meridia to the base of the shroud platform only does two points of damage)

Experience:
The character is abundantly playable and enjoyable throughout all of his levels, with dps lacking only slightly at 8th level, due to having to wait for ITWF. This character went until 14th level before he ever died and then I ended up in Korthos .

Variations:
There are a ton of ways to vary this build, putting an extra level into one of the classes would greatly change anything.
Doing a higher INT build, and taking UMD along with Expertise, would greatly change your AC.
The only things that are a must is, the Whirling Steel Strike Feat, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, and the TWF chain.

Notes:
This is a variation from my character Sacharis, which I built with too low of a Concentration score (had to fix it with Greensteel), and I did UMD instead of tumble and regretted it (got 20, which is a good milestone, but wasn't worth it)

Thank you to all of the well thought out and insightful posts who have helped me build over the years, and a special thanks to those who build the tools to do it.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0

[elixer1]

Fyi, your "majority" class turns out to be fighter in this progression for the purposes of TR'ing and past life feats.

[SeguagnalStaump]

Level 14 with this build and I cut through appropriate quest levels and adventure areas like a hot knife (or longsword as the case may be) through butter. I have so much fun playing this character that I barely play any of my other six. Presently I can get to an ac of 53 with buffs wearing Icy Robes. My attack speed is ridiculous which makes up for the lower damage/hit of a straight out fighter or barbarian.

[nckaratekid89]

Any chance of this build doing well with a dwarf, switching out longswords for daxes?

[icekinslayer]

Any chance of this build doing well with a dwarf, switching out longswords for daxes?

dwarven axes aren't ki weapons, so you lose the stance. so, no.

[Propane]

Looks like a fun build! Thanks for sharing

You need long swords to make the Whirling Steel to work....

[nckaratekid89]

Gotcha. Thanks

[elixer1]

Any chance of this build doing well with a dwarf, switching out longswords for daxes?

Yeah, just as the other folks said. One of the big disadvantages of this build, is that it's one weapon only -- long swords. Longswords are subpar dps as far as weapons go, but the synergies of this build, more than make up for it. Also, once you get Green Steel longswords the dps improves significantly. Throw in a bloodstone or even an arrowhead, and again the dps really starts reaching up.

There are of course variant selections for this build, but sadly the weapons aren't one of them (at least they are better than kamas ).

[Dace]

I've been designing a very similar character, though with a 8 fighter/6 monk/6 ranger split.

You may want to consider a build using shortswords (specifically the sunblade, 1d10 base damage, 19-20 crit). This will save you bothering with oversized TWF/Whirling Steel Strike feats.

Personally, I'm inclined to be drow with the dark monk shortsword synergy going on, but we'll see ^

The major downside to these multi characters is the huge number of enhancement points required to make the prereqs for the prestige classes.

[elixer1]

I've been designing a very similar character, though with a 8 fighter/6 monk/6 ranger split.

You may want to consider a build using shortswords (specifically the sunblade, 1d10 base damage, 19-20 crit). This will save you bothering with oversized TWF/Whirling Steel Strike feats.

Excellent idea, I believe you still need the Oversized TWF feat though, even with light weapons they can't be the same (found that out on my rogue). I assume it's a bug, unless the actually intend for Rapiers to be even more of a light weapon than a shortsword. It's easy to check for though, just watch your 'to hit' mod in the inventory screen.

Personally, I'm inclined to be drow with the dark monk shortsword synergy going on, but we'll see ^

named loot not withstanding (think about the cuttthroat's small blade!), the regular shortsword is a 1d6 19-20/x2 when compared to a longsword of 1d8 19-20/x2 is only a difference of 1 average damage. Shortswords however do not have vorpals, but do have banishing (which procs on crit, rather than just on nat 20s, but the baddie gets a save). And with the recent changes to vorpal I have yet to see if Vorpals will get more play or less. This is a good way to save a feat though, but with 8 levels of Ftr, do you need to save feats?

Drow will give you a bonus to DEX and CHA, only one of which is really relevant to a melee fighter. Can't argue with that spell resistance though....., but it's 2 less stat points to play with at character creation.

The major downside to these multi characters is the huge number of enhancement points required to make the prereqs for the prestige classes.

I've included the enhancement point distributions.

What about the enhancement lay out for Ninja Spy, if I recall, don't you have to take some less-than-optimal enhancements to get Ninja-Spy?

I really like where you are going with this. I would really like to see your build when you post it.

Excellent insights, +1 for you.

[Cardtrick]

This is an interesting build, especially for anyone trying to pick up a Fighter, Monk, or Ranger past life. (Since when planning to TR specifically for the past life feat, you'll usually stick at level 18 until hitting the XP cap, you could actually adjust the last 2 levels -- which you would never really play with -- to gain any of the 3 past lives.)

An interesting variation on this would be using the same, or similar, class split, but going for handwrap fighting rather than Whirling Steel Strike. This would be especially viable if you have a monk past life, for the increased fist die step. With the monk past life and the Garments of Equilibrium, you'd have 2d6 fist damage. If you swapped the 7th fighter level for an 8th monk level, they'd actually be 2d8. Plus, if you went unarmed, you could really say you had the highest possible attack speed, since you'd get the extra base speed of unarmed fighting. (This is actually the real advantage here, not the base damage. It's a significant attack speed boost.) DPS would likely be lower while leveling, but higher at cap once you craft your TOD rings. (Obviously, making this change would mean taking your various focuses/specializations in unarmed, rather than slashing, but it should be straightforward enough.)

[kernal42]

- The fastest attack speed available (even with the TWF nerfs) Flurry of Blows, Greater Wind Stance, Tempest I, Fighter Haste +20%

Is this true? I believe the high monk attack speed works only when unarmed, and not with other ki weapons.
You still get of course the +7.5% doublestrike from windstance, giving you:
1.075 mainhand attacks per animation
0.9 offhand attacks per animation
For a total of 1.975 attacks per animation, coupled with haste boost III for some fast attacks.

On the other hand, ranger12/fighter7/???1 will give 2 attacks per animation and also have haste boost III, for a slightly faster armed attack rate.

Cheers,
Kernal

[elixer1]

This is an interesting build, especially for anyone trying to pick up a Fighter, Monk, or Ranger past life. (Since when planning to TR specifically for the past life feat, you'll usually stick at level 18 until hitting the XP cap, you could actually adjust the last 2 levels -- which you would never really play with -- to gain any of the 3 past lives.)

Totally. Very good observation.

An interesting variation on this would be using the same, or similar, class split, but going for handwrap fighting rather than Whirling Steel Strike. This would be especially viable if you have a monk past life, for the increased fist die step. With the monk past life and the Garments of Equilibrium, you'd have 2d6 fist damage. If you swapped the 7th fighter level for an 8th fighter level, they'd actually be 2d8.

you hit it on the head, the big drawback to the unarmed fighting is the die type, if you don't keep going with monk, your damage is completely outclassed by pure monks that are doing huge dice for their hands.

Plus, if you went unarmed, you could really say you had the highest possible attack speed, since you'd get the extra base speed of unarmed fighting. (This is actually the real advantage here, not the base damage. It's a significant attack speed boost.)

Ah Ha! Finally someone has responded to my provocative and hard to prove statement! This is why I need to stick it up in a brief video, but I digress. Perhaps segaugnal can at least provide some supporting testimony to prove I'm not some idiot newb, or worse, Noob. The base Attack Per Second (Herefore referred to as APS) speed is slower than that of a pure Wind monk at 20th, however much of that is not stackable with haste anymore (how much even after the two-weapon nerf is unclear, and I have yet to see some analysis of it). Haste of course is less than the full wind stance, but haste comes in a potion or clickie or friendly buff master, and although you can't quite obtain the speed of a full windstance, you get reasonably very close. But that said, I've only sunk 6 levels in to my monk speed increase, so when I add in the Haste boost from the fighter line, and my gosh! It's an incredible whirl! However that's just graphics, an we know that it doesn't actually represent your attack speed, the numbers do. But until I can provide video evidence, I'm afraid all I can do is stand on the street corner and say that the attack speed beats my monk's. Even if you find the statement "fastest APS possible" incredulous, please accept my honest testimony that it is very fast, and the numbers show it, not just the animation. (I tried the dps calculator as best I can, but I don't know how people can count that quickly, and I threw out the numbers I got, as I thought they were extremely too high and therefore most likely fundamentally wrong). I respect if you are still skeptical, but I hope that explains my point.

DPS would likely be lower while leveling, but higher at cap once you craft your TOD rings. (Obviously, making this change would mean taking your various focuses/specializations in unarmed, rather than slashing, but it should be straightforward enough.)

I try to do all my concept builds without referring to specific named loot (newbs find it too boggling/intimidating, and veterans don't need to be told they can have a minos legends or GS item in it). But I do have a Bloodstone, GS long swords, and I can handle any quest with a pocket cleric for some quick support healing (wands, potions and perfect body take too long, but are also perfectly viable). I crit for well over a hundred, which by crit terms is crappy, but as you have already stated, it's about how often I'm doing that....


Fantastic analysis, thank you very much, +1 for you.

[elixer1]

Is this true? I believe the high monk attack speed works only when unarmed, and not with other ki weapons.

Flurry of blows is active, even when armed with ki weapons, and I see no change graphically or in the number pop ups (hardly a quantitative method) when I switch between the two (I keep some ooze bane wraps around for oozes)

You still get of course the +7.5% doublestrike from windstance, giving you:
1.075 mainhand attacks per animation
0.9 offhand attacks per animation
For a total of 1.975 attacks per animation, coupled with haste boost III for some fast attacks.

Don't forget Tempest 1

On the other hand, ranger12/fighter7/???1 will give 2 attacks per animation and also have haste boost III, for a slightly faster armed attack rate.

I'm curious about this, you seem to have a very good handle on these metrics, can you expand on this for me? Or shoot me some resources to research, I've read numerous posts and wiki entries, but I find it confusing or inaccurate in a post two weapon nerf world.

+1!

[kernal42]

Flurry of blows is active, even when armed with ki weapons, and I see no change graphically or in the number pop ups (hardly a quantitative method) when I switch between the two (I keep some ooze bane wraps around for oozes)

Flurry of blows is active with ki weapons. However, in DDO, Flurry of Blows does not provide an attack speed increase*, it just increases your effective base attack bonus. See: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Flurry_of_Blows

*Okay, so having a higher BaB does give you a higher attack speed. But that's the only speed boost provided by flurry of blows!

Don't forget Tempest 1

I have not; Tempest I is what gives you the 0.9 offhand attacks per swing, rather than the 0.8 granted by GTWF.

I'm curious about this, you seem to have a very good handle on these metrics, can you expand on this for me? Or shoot me some resources to research, I've read numerous posts and wiki entries, but I find it confusing or inaccurate in a post two weapon nerf world.

I'm not sure if I'm answering the question that you're asking, but this is how TWF works right now:

When you click your mouse and take a single swing, you swing with your main hand weapon. At the same time, you have a chance to also make an attack with your offhand weapon, and also make a second attack with your mainhand weapon. (For this, the animations are separate from the actual attacks. You may find yourself with extra attacks when there was no swing animation, or offhand swings with no associated attacks).

The base chance to make an attack with your offhand weapon is 20%; this increases by 20% for each TWF feat you have, and also increases by 10% for both Tempest I and Tempest II. So your build, with Tempest I and GTWF, will have a 90% chance to make an offhand attack with every swing you make.

You also have a chance to doublestrike. The default doublestrike chance is 0%, but this can be boosted with weapons (hellstroke greataxe), prestige lines (tempest III grants 5% doublestrike chance), bard songs (recklessness), or monk wind stance, as well as a few other ways. Greater Wind stance gives a 7.5% doublestrike chance. This means that with every swing you make with your main-hand, you have a 7.5% chance to also get another swing from it.

So for every mainhand swing you make, you get your mainhand attack (1), a chance at an offhand attack (0.9), and a chance at a second mainhand attack (0.075), for a total of 1.975 attacks per swing, on average. Hasted TWF gets something like 2 mainhand swings per second, so you're looking at about 4 attacks per second, more when haste boosted. Vanshilar has done extensive work measuring attack speeds, you can look up his attack speed index here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144 (though some earlier posts may be outdated).

Cheers,
Kernal

Edit: I should note two things:
1) Tempest I No longer provides a static 10% speed boost. Sadly.
2) I'm ignoring the wind stance 12.5% haste boost because it doesn't stack with the haste spell. However, that's not entirely reasonable; that attack speed boost is quite noticable when you're not otherwise hasted, for example when soloing, running at low-levels, or fighting beholders.

[Dace]

Had a dig around for my old build notes. This is something I was looking into a while ago and never really finished, so this is just for an idea of how it could be done.

(Had some feedback from unbongwah on this one before I dropped it, thanks for that mate).


"After doing a lot of reading I've 'thought up' a new Drow dual wield build, and I'd like your feedback on it. The concept is a 2 weapon fighter with very high attack rate, lightly armoured with a good AC and doing lots of damage. I know that longswords/rapiers are considered the better two weapon choices, but I've gone with shortswords for roleplay/synergy reasons and I think it works."

^^^ *Use Sunblades* ^^^

I noted some synergy between drow and shortswords, and also the monk Ninja Spy class. In order to get the AB I wanted, I threw Kensai into the mix, and to up my attack rate we've got a Tempest Ranger.

I've fleshed out the entire build and this is what I've come up with (quick summary).

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Drow Male
(8 Fighter / 6 Monk / 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 308
Spell Points: 55

BAB: 18/18/23/28/28
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 16
Will: 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 22 24
Dexterity 15 17 18
Constitution 15 16 16
Intelligence 10 10 10
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 10 10 10


Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7


Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons

Level 2 (Ranger)

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness

Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse // ignore this one, can't be bothered fixing an old build atm

Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness

Level 7 (Monk)

Level 8 (Monk)

Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness

Level 10 (Ranger)

Level 11 (Ranger)

Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Lawful Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw

Level 13 (Ranger)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons

Level 17 (Fighter)

Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense

Level 19 (Fighter)

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
nhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Kensei Shortsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Shortsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II

There you go, managed to get all the pre-req enhancements and you still have 25AP to play with to customise the build.

[elixer1]

I don't want to hijack my own thread, can you post it in another thread and link it here. I have lots of feedback for you, and I think you hit on some solid ideas, but I have many questions.

[elixer1]

Flurry of blows is active with ki weapons. However, in DDO, Flurry of Blows does not provide an attack speed increase*, it just increases your effective base attack bonus. See: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Flurry_of_Blows

*Okay, so having a higher BaB does give you a higher attack speed. But that's the only speed boost provided by flurry of blows!

Correct, despite it's name it's really on a BAB modifier

I have not; Tempest I is what gives you the 0.9 offhand attacks per swing, rather than the 0.8 granted by GTWF.

Understood

I'm not sure if I'm answering the question that you're asking, but this is how TWF works right now:

When you click your mouse and take a single swing, you swing with your main hand weapon. At the same time, you have a chance to also make an attack with your offhand weapon, and also make a second attack with your mainhand weapon. (For this, the animations are separate from the actual attacks. You may find yourself with extra attacks when there was no swing animation, or offhand swings with no associated attacks).

The base chance to make an attack with your offhand weapon is 20%; this increases by 20% for each TWF feat you have, and also increases by 10% for both Tempest I and Tempest II. So your build, with Tempest I and GTWF, will have a 90% chance to make an offhand attack with every swing you make.

You also have a chance to doublestrike. The default doublestrike chance is 0%, but this can be boosted with weapons (hellstroke greataxe), prestige lines (tempest III grants 5% doublestrike chance), bard songs (recklessness), or monk wind stance, as well as a few other ways. Greater Wind stance gives a 7.5% doublestrike chance. This means that with every swing you make with your main-hand, you have a 7.5% chance to also get another swing from it.

So for every mainhand swing you make, you get your mainhand attack (1), a chance at an offhand attack (0.9), and a chance at a second mainhand attack (0.075), for a total of 1.975 attacks per swing, on average. Hasted TWF gets something like 2 mainhand swings per second, so you're looking at about 4 attacks per second, more when haste boosted. Vanshilar has done extensive work measuring attack speeds, you can look up his attack speed index here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144 (though some earlier posts may be outdated).

Awesome summary and great link, that's precisely what I was looking for, sadly it is pre-two weapon nerf, but your summary goes a long to spell out the mechanics. Thank you, +1 for you.

Edit: I should note two things:
1) Tempest I No longer provides a static 10% speed boost. Sadly.
2) I'm ignoring the wind stance 12.5% haste boost because it doesn't stack with the haste spell. However, that's not entirely reasonable; that attack speed boost is quite noticable when you're not otherwise hasted, for example when soloing, running at low-levels, or fighting beholders.

Originally the speed boost from Wind Stance was half insight and half enhancement. The enhancement half would not stack with Haste, but the insight portion would, I think that is what is still going on. But I don't have concrete evidenec to go on, other than what you have already noticed. Hasted is fast, Hasted and Windstance is faster.

[kernal42]

Originally the speed boost from Wind Stance was half insight and half enhancement. The enhancement half would not stack with Haste, but the insight portion would,

This is correct. However, when they modified the TWF mechanic they replaced the insight speed bonus with a doublestrike chance, as I describe above.

Hasted is fast, Hasted and Windstance is faster.

This should only be true beause of the doublestrikes you see, which is to say that the animations should be the same speed but you get a few more attacks in windstance. If you think windstance + haste actually has faster animations as well, I encourage you to take videos demonstrating this quantitatively - it would be good to know and interesting to see.

Cheers,
Kernal

[SeguagnalStaump]

I am not going to try to add/subtract from any of these posts. Admittedly, the mechanics/science of builds holds little interest for me. I go by trial and error and play what I have fun playing and delete what I don't.

Having said that, running with two barbarians last night, all of us wielding greensteel weapons, I found our kill counts were fairly even. The one significant difference was in attention to....well, they needed more attention from the clerics. This build works very well in a group, needs very little (normally) in the way of clerical help (except at tax time :/) and is relatively self-sufficient.

This build has great solo-ability even without hirelings and its strength in a party is in part to what I just alluded to. A melee on/near par with straight melee builds, with better than average ac & decent hp that does not burden a parties healers.

Also, the German word for nipples if brustwarzen which literally translates into breast warts which is why I continue to lobby for the German language as being the "language of love".