PLZ, help me with my utility Wiz!!! Fire/Ice or Force Spells???

[Ghustor]

The goal: Raids and Epic - CC, Buffer, Trap Monkey and Backup Caster

Drow for Max int

Pale Master (Lich) for high DC (+2 int) and self heal

2 Rog/18 Wiz

Feats: focus and G. focus on necro and enchantment and extend/empower/maximaxe/Spell Pen/etc...

Skills: Trap Monkey

After this basic steps, rest only 1 doub: Fire/Ice or Force spells??

1) Fire/Ice have a huge base damage, but there is immunits, resistences and saves (no focus on Evocations)

2) Force Spells do something about half damage, but there is no resistence, no immunits and no saves...

What do you, more experients guys, tell me???

[lethargos]

Not experienced in epics, but i bet they will say go pure wiz for epics.

[locus]

Well, Archmage gives higher DCs, just noting. You will not have enough feats to take those three spell focus feats, the rest of your list, unless you're not taking something like Toughness (*wince*). You will want Insightful reflexes if you have 2 rogue. If you are pale master and are only taking one enchantment feat and are not a pure wizard then you are 2 DC behind a 18/2 archmage, and 3 DC behind a pure wiz (if I calculated correctly), which adds up.

You will want any extra APs to go into fire/ice imo, as killing things with force spells uses a LOT (a lotlotlotlot) more SP (especially as a pale master, and without evocation feats & evocation SLAs) than just slapping down a firewall or ice storm (<3 new&improved ice storm). If you were warforged, force would make more sense. If you were an archmage specializing in evocation (and therefore had access to relatively cheap chain missiles etc SLA) force would make more sense.

It's not a bad idea to go pale master, but it's not the best for epics, so I'm just pointing out the above differences. It doesn't really matter whether you specialize in force or fire, to be honest, since you can just reset them and play around with enhancements, you know. So, since you're set on your build, try both out while leveling and while at cap and see what you like?

You will likely run out of SP faster with using a lot of force spells. I've also had a real problem finding Superior Impact clickies of any sort (or running into them on reward lists/chests - as in only one Superior II in a couple of months of looking) so I wonder if Sup Impact VIs are not on loot tables for whatever reason. (You will want a Superior Impact clicky for max damage if going force).

Imo, the only really viable force build (maybe) would be Archmage, evocation, with the chain missiles SLA.

[Fishcatch22]

Fire/ice is the Wizards bread and butter. Force spells are nice, but not as nice as Fire/ice. You got your Polar Ray, Icestorm, Wall of Fire... almost all the good damaging spells are in there. The main reason some wizards put into it at all is for the ability to heal WF (And you're a fleshie), sicne it helps repair spells as well. Force spec wizards are viable, but its best to be a WF and taking advantage of the other side of the coin as well.

[Jaid314]

Well, Archmage gives higher DCs, just noting.

this misconception seems to come up quite often.

archmage gives you higher DC in *one* school (provided that school is not necromancy) *if* you have the same race and *if* the archmage uses yugoloth int pots (which many won't be doing, largely because -50% fort is an awful lot to lose).

archmage gets 2 bonuses to DC in a single school and an additional +1 in a second school that the pale master cannot directly match. pale master gets +2 int from lich form, and can much more safely use yugoloth potions for a second +2 int that the archmage likely won't have. furthermore, there is substantial motivation for the archmage to choose to be a warforged, whereas a pale master has considerably less incentive to do so and would in fact benefit quite substantially by being either human, half-elf, or in some situations drow (i actually recommend against drow, but at least if you only have 28 point builds it's a close comparison). if comparing the much more likely scenario of human/half-elf/drow pale master who drinks yugoloth potions vs warforged archmage who does not drink yugoloth potions, pale master actually has *higher* DCs.

now then, on to the meat of the matter: my personal thoughts are to ditch the rogue levels. dealing with traps is not really all that important, and in most cases you will either run through or go around traps if there isn't a rogue/rogue splash around to deal with them. in general, your capstone as a wizard is *amazing* and you'd best think long and hard before you splash something that costs you so much. furthermore, the last 2 levels of wizard are the ones that give you the most spell points... and ultimately, since it sounds like the plan is for a caster-focused wizard, those rogue levels really aren't doing an awful lot for you.

now then, on to feats. if you do multiclass, you'll have 7 normal feats as a drow, and 4 wizard feats.

you can take spell focus (but not greater spell focus) and metamagics as wizard feats, anything else has to go into normal slots. looking at your choices, it appears that you want:

toughness
insightful reflexes
SF: necro
GSF: necro
SF: ench
GSF: ench
SP
GSP
empower
maximise
quicken
extend
heighten

this is 13 feats. obviously, this isn't going to work out too well since you only get 11 if you go 18/2... something has to give. you could potentially gain 2 feats (thus not having to give up any of them) by going human and taking 20 levels of wizard instead of 18. if you absolutely can't bear to give up evasion, perhaps you should consider 2 levels of monk instead of rogue... this will at least let you take toughness with a monk bonus feat (or more likely, take toughness twice, but possibly TWF as the second choice if you want to keep a bit of melee around at 20), grant you better melee ability, give you some minimal melee capacity, and give you stances (which can improve your saves vs traps, help you carry more/be resistant to the dreaded ray of enfeeblement, boost your con/DR, etc) and animal paths (can give you more HP and bonus to concentration, which at least gives you something that synergizes with wizard). note that i'm not really a big fan of splashing monk, either, but i do consider it a better choice than splashing rogue, unless you have an arbitrary fixation on disarming traps. perhaps understandable for a 2nd or 3rd life when it means bonus exp, but not such a big deal on first life when exp is plentiful.

so then, now that's out of the way, you're going to have to:

a) give up the splash idea entirely *and* change race OR
b) splash monk instead *and* change race OR
c) forfeit one of those feats (if you go monk or human or take 20 levels of wizard) OR
d) give up two feats (if you stick with drow and rogue).

from the list of feats you want, probably the first thing to go would be extend, followed by greater spell focus in enchantment. both are actually pretty big losses in their own way (extend means your wall of fire lasts less time, as do hypnotism, negative energy aura, haste, rage, displacement, flesh to stone, etc, but can be compensated for with casting a second time. greater spell focus puts you a little further behind in your goal of being strong CC).

the rest, you're pretty much stuck with, unless you want to try something *really* crazy like losing empower (i've done this on my sorcerer, but then again my sorcerer gets bonus damage from capstone, and has an eardweller for those rare times where i actually care about dealing damage... you might some day be able to ditch empower, but you're probably going to want it unless/until you have significant damage boosts elsewhere).

oh, and forget about force/repair. it's a good choice for evocation spec warforge archmages, but not really for anyone else. unless you've gone drow and have no good enhancement choices other than putting something into repair just to be better at it in raid parties (did i mention i don't really recommend being a drow?)

[Carpone]

The goal: Raids and Epic - CC, Buffer, Trap Monkey and Backup Caster

What the hell is a backup caster?

After this basic steps, rest only 1 doub: Fire/Ice or Force spells??

1) Fire/Ice have a huge base damage, but there is immunits, resistences and saves (no focus on Evocations)

2) Force Spells do something about half damage, but there is no resistence, no immunits and no saves...

Until you can solo epics with force spells, it's a no brainer: fire and ice.

[locus]

this misconception seems to come up quite often.

How is this a misconception if you agree below?

archmage gets 2 bonuses to DC in a single school and an additional +1 in a second school that the pale master cannot directly match.

Right, one school (perhaps two). I don't think I implied that it was in all schools, just that it had a potential to be better (right, in one area), which the OP may or may not have known. The point was: it's not the major reason to go pale master, but ymmv. Anyway, *handwave*

UMD's a pretty big reason to stick with 2rogue (if not going pure). Evasion from one avenue is very handy, if making a strong solo character, and if you are, the xp from traps isn't insignificant. If you aren't willing to give up any essential caster feats, then monk's a better choice, as it'll net you an extra two feats, which is exactly what an 18wiz build is missing for all the feats needed (+ multiple spell focus feats).

[Jaid314]

How is this a misconception if you agree below?



Right, one school (perhaps two). I don't think I implied that it was in all schools, just that it had a potential to be better (right, in one area), which the OP may or may not have known. The point was: it's not the major reason to go pale master, but ymmv. Anyway, *handwave*

UMD's a pretty big reason to stick with 2rogue (if not going pure). Evasion from one avenue is very handy, if making a strong solo character, and if you are, the xp from traps isn't insignificant. If you aren't willing to give up any essential caster feats, then monk's a better choice, as it'll net you an extra two feats, which is exactly what an 18wiz build is missing for all the feats needed (+ multiple spell focus feats).

because the pale master gets +2 int that an archmage *cannot* match (lich form), or the equivalent of +1 to EVERY school, and +2 int that an archmage will very seldom choose to match (yugoloth potion) that a pale master can use safely but which can be very risky for an archmage. that's the equivalent of a total +2 to ALL save DCs which the typical archmage cannot or will not choose to match. +2 to 1 school and +1 to a second, or +2 to *all schools* means that the pale master will most likely have the same DC as an archmage of the same race in the archmage's primary school, a DC one point higher than the archmage's secondary school, and 2 points higher in every other school.

if you had bothered to actually continue reading, rather than quoting me out of context, you might have known that, since this is *exactly* what i said in that post you quoted. while further noting that there is likely a substantially larger population of warforged in the archmage side of things (standard save DCs) whereas there are likely a comparatively larger number of humans, half-elves, and drow on the pale master side of things (ie superior save DCs because of higher int score).

archmage does not get better save DCs. they *do* potentially get better max SP (particularly when you consider the cost of entering form for a pale master), and can potentially have better spell-likes (pale master nuking is probably slightly better than archmage nuking, particularly since necromancy focus is better than evocation focus, HP cost is better than SP cost especially when you get an aura to recharge HP, and pale master negative energy enhancements give higher bonus than normal enhancement lines; however, enchantment and conjuration definitely have more appealing SLA options, it's only in nuking that the pale master is particularly competitive).

thus, it is a misconception that archmage is the path to superior save DC in most cases. particularly since in many cases, you will be comparing a lich form, yugo-pot-drinking, human/half-elf/drow pale master to a non-yugo-pot-drinking WF archmage.

now, an archmage *can* potentially have *one* point of DC on a pale master given the same kind of equipment *if* the archmage is the same race and *if* they drink yugo pots (thus dropping their fortification dangerously low). but more often than not, that won't be the case.

[Entelech]

Of course, in Epic, or Raid-boss content the Pale Master's bonus to Necromancy spells is useless, since everything has blanket-immunity to instakill spells...

Thus, in a typical epic CC situation, that Lich form + Yugoloth Potion is simply offsetting the Enchantment Focus and Greater Enchantment Focus your typical Archmage will have. (note: there is little or no reason to focus on anything other than Enchantment as an Archmage. Pale Masters are better at meaningful Necromancy spells, and none of the SLA's for the other schools are particularly worthwhile.)

Really, it's a toss-up. Play what you like.

[Jaid314]

Of course, in Epic, or Raid-boss content the Pale Master's bonus to Necromancy spells is useless, since everything has blanket-immunity to instakill spells...

Thus, in a typical epic CC situation, that Lich form + Yugoloth Potion is simply offsetting the Enchantment Focus and Greater Enchantment Focus your typical Archmage will have. (note: there is little or no reason to focus on anything other than Enchantment as an Archmage. Pale Masters are better at meaningful Necromancy spells, and none of the SLA's for the other schools are particularly worthwhile.)

Really, it's a toss-up. Play what you like.

that would be accurate... except that pale masters can *also* take spell focus and greater spell focus in enchantment.

also the fact that conjuration is actually pretty good, spammable web is extremely useful in many cases where mass hold monster and hypnotism are useless.

[locus]

if you had bothered to actually continue reading, rather than quoting me out of context, you might have known that, since this is *exactly* what i said in that post you quoted.

I did continue reading, which is why I wondered why you brought up misconceptions (or were obnoxious in your posts, except that's it's a requirement for posting here ) when we basically agreed. Anyway, uh, we're not really arguing over anything at all, I think, and I can't be bothered to read so many uncapitalized paragraphs in depth so basically what Entelech said. Tossup overall, but I was thinking epic as well when I replied initially

(Also I love it when people post 'halp me!!11" threads that they never check again. Cough ).

[Jaid314]

I did continue reading, which is why I wondered why you brought up misconceptions (or were obnoxious in your posts, except that's it's a requirement for posting here ) when we basically agreed. Anyway, uh, we're not really arguing over anything at all, I think, and I can't be bothered to read so many uncapitalized paragraphs in depth so basically what Entelech said. Tossup overall, but I was thinking epic as well when I replied initially

(Also I love it when people post 'halp me!!11" threads that they never check again. Cough ).

i didn't bring up the misconception. you did. it's sitting right there, in the post where i quoted you. the one where you said archmage gives better DCs.

i then proceeded to demonstrate that this is not typically the case. that way, people can actually make properly informed decisions when they want to play a wizard... they won't feel pressured to play an archmage just so that their save DCs can be "good enough", because they'll know that they can get their save DC "good enough" with a pale master as well, if that's what they want to play (from what i've seen, not as many people seem to want to play pale master as much, largely because they like the SLAs from archmage... which is fine, as that is an actual, valid reason to choose archmage, being something that pale master cannot match).

perhaps a better questions is why, if you supposedly agree with me that pale master save DCs are not inferior, did you state that pale masters don't have as good of a DC as archmages?