Need help healing The Shroud please

[voxson5]

Ouch!

Find new groups - seriously!

Just a bit of sarcasm :P

[wax_on_wax_off]

ah that is most informative, the link you posted to Sirgog's Thread about healing and multiplicity was very helpful for me. I've suspected that healing was multiplicative but didn't really seem like all aspects of it was, it's nice to know that Metamagic feats I've invested in are even more potent than I was sure of previously. 50% multiplicative is much more potent than 50% additive, especially when stacked with 100% from max and 50% from the other empower, all multiplicative.

Query: you mean MCSW with Ardor 8 Clicky is best option for you right? *unless you don't have one*

Also in regards too quicken I'm a strong supporter in keeping Quicken on at all times, sure you can get away with it here in there but it just isn't worth the few SP it saves too risk it IMO (if you can pull it off likely you won't miss the SP). I heal as if I'm solo healing even if there is 2 or three other healers there because I usually either don't know what they are capable of or they know what I can do and might be piking (DPS is an acronym that means piking).

MCCW with Superior Ardor VIII clicky is the best mass cure spell to cast if you have the item. If you only have Superior Ardor VI then MCMW is the most efficient followed by MCLW (with superior ardor VI) or MCSW (with greater potency VII) depending on if maximise is on. I'm not sure why this matters but the spreadsheet says it does and I think all the formula are correct.

The best way to play the healing role is to always assume that things can hit the fan. Perhaps there will be a party split and half the party will DC. Perhaps all the other healers will DC. Whatever happens, it's best to play as efficiently as possible. In part 5 of Shroud, unless you are meleeing, it is quite possible to solo heal without quicken activated. In a lot of other content it is possible to run with quicken turned off IF you know the content. Having quicken on is easy and should be on if you don't know what's coming.

Choosing between Mass Heal and MCxW is a going to be different each time. MH is more than twice as efficient as the most efficient scenario for MCCW with superior ardor. That means that you can have twice as much SP left in the same period of healing (not counting overhealing). A spell like this is the reason that I managed to get through Epic Devil Assault without using any major SP pots. In the Shroud however, I think I might starting running with maximise and empower healing on so that I can solo heal and melee if needed.

[voxson5]

first off, I despise mass heal. It takes far too long to cast each one, and if your depending on it... its going to bite you in the behind. (and it has)

I'm getting the hang of timing mass heals, cures just use too much sp for not enough healing (but are great for getting out of the s*^&). My issue was running out of sp, i believe that using meta'd mass cures would have worsened the situation & just helped kept the squishies alive

Now. gearwise... I suggest you toss all those ardor clikies and get a Sup. potency 6 one-hander or item. ardor and potency dont stack, and potency affects all spells, including your healing. having it in your off hand allows you to use scrolls if you desire,

Dude, i'm Soul Survivor WF FvS, (and finally started playing like one, rather than as a healbot). Ardor clickies > potency item (+75% vs +50%). I'm not about to put down my DR breaking greatsword so I can heal less efficently

edit: OH yeah! fergot! after every meter strike harry puts out I refresh the mass protects on the melees... 120 pts of damage absorption goes a long way to keeping pugs alive

Kinda do wish i had the spell, looking to revise my spell selection. I currently only have Aid/Recitation/Holy Aura as my mass spells, with all others as single's (which has never been a problem so far, but am looking to update as neccesary)

[PopeJual]

I'll chime in with a vote for Superior Potency VI in addition to Ardor clickies.

When I solo, I don't need anything more than an occasional (non-mass) Heal on myself and Potency VI works fine for that. Also, the Sup Potency VI gives me a bigger Blade Barrier as well.

Also, I keep half an eye on my Ardor timer when I am healing a raid group, but if it happens to run out, I like dropping from 75% to 50% instead of dropping from 75% to 0%.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'll chime in with a vote for Superior Potency VI in addition to Ardor clickies.

When I solo, I don't need anything more than an occasional (non-mass) Heal on myself and Potency VI works fine for that. Also, the Sup Potency VI gives me a bigger Blade Barrier as well.

Also, I keep half an eye on my Ardor timer when I am healing a raid group, but if it happens to run out, I like dropping from 75% to 50% instead of dropping from 75% to 0%.

I suggest this as well, I carry 2 superior potency VI items, a staff and a necklace. I use them for blade barrier and searing light.

However, I never use them for healing as I have 27 minutes (I think, maybe 18) of superior ardor goodness and that has never run out. I always keep other items in my hands, arcane shard, scrolls, greater potency VII, greatsword.

[Pape_27]

Quickened Mass Heal takes 1.5 seconds to fully cast.

2 Quickened Mass Cures take less than 1 second combined to fully cast.


Who spends more time attacking here?

Me, because i simply hit one button. One less action per round, more healing to boot.

You have to break action twice to cast the two spells. Yes the cures have a shorter casting time, but with the two separate actions negates the net effect of casting quicker.

I will say this - there is more than one way to skin this proverbial cat. I happen to like the Mass Heal route. Using mass heal, my cleric burns thru maybe 1/2 of her 2100 sp in a round. On my 17 FvS (1900 odd sp) I don't have Mass heal yet. Using the cures just isn't as effective in my experience.

To each their own i guess. Thanks for the interesting discussion Aylin. +1 coming your way



_

[AylinIsAwesome]

Me, because i simply hit one button. One less action per round, more healing to boot.

You have to break action twice to cast the two spells. Yes the cures have a shorter casting time, but with the two separate actions negates the net effect of casting quicker.

Attacking, then casting MCLW + MCSW, then attacking again only breaks the chain once, and for a shorter amount of time than casting Mass Heal would.

It's not less healing this way, it just takes more SP. However, in shorter fights that doesn't matter because you don't have the possibility of running out.

I will admit Mass Heal does have it's place, especially in long fights. I put eVON6 here because of the lack of shrines, and needing to heal an island + dragon with just the SP you have (assuming you don't drink pots). Mass Heal is awesome here, because Velah's damage isn't very rapid, and you need all the efficiency you can get.

Other fights though, like eADQ2 without a tank, I would never use Mass Heal...ever. Her damage is too high and too fast for most melee to be able to withstand the time it takes for a Mass Heal to cast. However, she doesn't have a lot of hitpoints, so the fight isn't very long at all, making it perfect for mass cures. (With a tank who can lock her 100% of the time it's easier to get away with Mass Heal, though depending on guild/server you may not have one).

Shroud is either closer to eVON6 for inexperienced or not well-geared characters (low DPS melee, people can't break DR, ect), or closer to eADQ2 for more experienced and equipped players, (albeit a lot easier).

Personally, I think Shroud is the best place to practice healing a raid with nothing but mass cures, as that will make healing eADQ2 the same way much easier should you ever need to do that at some point. It also gives you the bonus of seeing people without resist poison pots/items become immobile in Shroud pugs.

[Tirisha]

Other fights though, like eADQ2 without a tank, I would never use Mass Heal...ever.

In this fight I'll actually use mass heal by activating it immediately after a cure mass spell, when it goes off the party is usually around 1/2 hp, it's a little more efficient also helps keep your good cure mass spells off CD. But mostly I only really use it for those Squishy WF Barbs.

[voxson5]

Attacking, then casting MCLW + MCSW, then attacking again only breaks the chain once, and for a shorter amount of time than casting Mass Heal would.

I've started doing this now & it works very well - my MCLW are criting for 300+ (highest i've seen was 401 so far) & are normally healing for around 150 or so

(Max, Emp healing, Sup Ardor clickie, Gauntlets of Eternity)

It does make healing a lot faster & I do get a lot more swings in between healing


Thank you for the input

**edited because i cannot spell without morning coffee**

[Volaxis]

Just cast mass heal every 6 seconds, anyone who dies its their fault. If melle's have under 450hp and no heavy fort, 6 seconds with harry will kill them, not your problem, otherwise they'll be good. Casters who spam mass cure's in a bad 3 round pug run out of mana. That being said the occasional cure critical can help if harry double strikes but not every cooldown. Pug's often die because they roll a drow with 140hp. Heal from beside harry and cast it on yourself, if you dont die they shouldnt either and you know how to heal yourself. Protection from elements is nice but not as important as straight heals, which should take priority.

I run the same build as you, wear a sup potency 6 necklace from amrath and put greater devotion 8 on a ToD ring when you get the chance.

[pSINNa]

Just cast mass heal every 6 seconds, anyone who dies its their fault. If melle's have under 450hp and no heavy fort, 6 seconds with harry will kill them, not your problem, otherwise they'll be good. Casters who spam mass cure's in a bad 3 round pug run out of mana. That being said the occasional cure critical can help if harry double strikes but not every cooldown. Pug's often die because they roll a drow with 140hp. Heal from beside harry and cast it on yourself, if you dont die they shouldnt either and you know how to heal yourself. Protection from elements is nice but not as important as straight heals, which should take priority.

I run the same build as you, wear a sup potency 6 necklace from amrath and put greater devotion 8 on a ToD ring when you get the chance.

I just couldn't help it when i saw that last line. Please don't do it to yourself! (put greater devotion 8 on a ToD ring).

If you fight a bit add +2 except str, or if you're feeling a bit squishy put +2 except con on it, or if you want slighly higher offensive casting dc's put +2 except wis on it.

Considering that superior ardour 8 clickies (75% boost to heal strength) that last 3 minutes each are a dime a dozen when you start running amrath a bit, and they have 3 clicks on each belt, it's an awful waste of something that could make your character better for you in my opinion.

Most of my healers have 2 belts (one of each type) which is 18 minutes of 75% boosted heal (just click it whenever you think you're getting close to running out, only takes 1/2 a second), and no big boss fight will even get close to lasting that long.

Those +2 to your favourite needed stat will be much better for you.

Coit out~

[PopeJual]

I just couldn't help it when i saw that last line. Please don't do it to yourself! (put greater devotion 8 on a ToD ring).

If you fight a bit add +2 except str, or if you're feeling a bit squishy put +2 except con on it, or if you want slighly higher offensive casting dc's put +2 except wis on it.

Considering that superior ardour 8 clickies (75% boost to heal strength) that last 3 minutes each are a dime a dozen when you start running amrath a bit, and they have 3 clicks on each belt, it's an awful waste of something that could make your character better for you in my opinion.

Most of my healers have 2 belts (one of each type) which is 18 minutes of 75% boosted heal (just click it whenever you think you're getting close to running out, only takes 1/2 a second), and no big boss fight will even get close to lasting that long.

Those +2 to your favourite needed stat will be much better for you.

Coit out~

I actually think that's not a bad thing to have on a spare ToD ring that you can swap in when you want to.

Of course, if you have a spare ToD ring that you can swap in when you want to, then you probably don't need any advice on healing from the rest of us.

[Matuse]

I don't use the area heals in eADQ not because of time to cast or amount healed, but because they only usually hit like 2 people. Everyone spreads out so much for that quest that you're lucky to get anyone with it.

[Habreno]

When I'm healing a Shroud on my Cleric I always have the capability to solo-heal both parts 4 and 5, just in case the other healer DC'ed. With 1963 SP's, another 100 very close to fruition (GS T3 coming), so I have quite a bit less than you. I run with only Empower Healing and Maximize on (I get 75% from Empower Healing vs your 50% from RS2) and have 4 SPs off EmpH from enhancements and another 2 from my necklace; Maximize I use Lesser Maximize clickies from the Epic Ornamented Dagger for 0 SPs there. Rotating through MCSW and MCMW I spend 83 SPs per pair of casts: this heals about 500 hps per pair. I get over 30 pairs from this... Superior Potency VII on the T3 Epic Ornamented Dagger for the bonus there, and maxed healing lines.

While this may not be of the best advice, as it is a healer-only take on it, perhaps it can help you out with knowing what you need to heal Shroud in an efficent manner. Is it possible for you to use a 1 handed boss beater and wield the dagger offhand, or is the dagger not an option?

This may help you with healing, but it may not. I hope it does.

Mass Heal is the most efficient use of mana when it comes to healing. A quicken mass heal does not take too long to cast. If your melee cannot survive the casting period of a MH, i would have to see the groups you are running with. The secondary benefit of MH is that it clears up any poison/disease stat damage. MH is too useful of a tool not to use.


Turn quicken off? Seriously? One dfb or meteor swarm and your concentration breaks, no more heals. That can quickly lead to disaster. Quicken should go on and stay on thru out 4 and the battle part of 5. Telling someone to turn it off is just bad advice.


The masses are fine for secondary healing bursts when the blades close in. They waste sp otherwise.



Another terrible piece of advice. Potency is good, Superior Ardor clickies are better. 50% vs 75% better.


This is about the only good piece of advice that you offered.

_

Comments:
Piece 1: Poision resist is almost always buffed pre-fight. And If I remember correctly, Harry does not disease. Quickened, it is inefficent on SP. Unquickened, it is too slow to cast. If properly equipped, Heal, Mass < Cure X Wounds Mass

Piece 2: If you get DBFed/Metor Swarmed, 150 of that is totally negated from a protect/resist. If you take the rest of the damage, casting a Mass Heal, there goes either 7 seconds of healing or nothing with Quicken. If you're casting Cure X Wounds Mass, your lost healing time is much less. Unless you're healing with nothing but Heal, Mass, then yes, you are right. Quicken is necessary. Otherwise, it is not.
Also, I take DBFs/Metor Swarms quite frequently in Normal Part 4/5. I don't break concentration; my concentration skill is 50 without any buffs and only a +15 item. I have seen 65 buffed, and commonly near 60 buffed. I'll do a breakdown here:

23 from skill points
15 from item
2 luck
1 Con skills
5 Con stat
Total 46 (I believe the final 4 are from racial bonuses from being an Elf, I do not know)
+4 GH
+1 Rage
+x from Bard Song
~58-60 normally buffed.
Various other buffs can make this number higher.

Piece 3: See Piece 2. Also, if you are properly equipped, Cure X Wounds Mass is less SP wasting than Heal, Mass.

Piece 4: The only piece you are right on.

[Siro]

I think I may be the only one who ever casts mass aid in the shroud on a regular basis, but then the last time I did the shroud was a year ago and the lag was party-wiping bad.

Also, U9 will make mass cure spells preferable in almost every way to mass heal.

[Habreno]

I think I may be the only one who ever casts mass aid in the shroud on a regular basis, but then the last time I did the shroud was a year ago and the lag was party-wiping bad.

Also, U9 will make mass cure spells preferable in almost every way to mass heal.

I always cast Mass Aid. Even after the 23 temporary HPS go away, you still have the Bless. Two benefits for the price of one, who can go wrong?

[Siro]

I always cast Mass Aid. Even after the 23 temporary HPS go away, you still have the Bless. Two benefits for the price of one, who can go wrong?

Well if there's a bard there, inspire courage is better, so I've been chided for it in the past. But in some pugs I cast it repeatedly inbetween mass cure lights for the tiny added buffer it provides. Same thing for mass protect if Harry is in a swarm tossing mood and the arcanes aren't doing it. All of this is, of course, unnecessary on a good day with a well-made group; but plan for the worst.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I don't use the area heals in eADQ not because of time to cast or amount healed, but because they only usually hit like 2 people. Everyone spreads out so much for that quest that you're lucky to get anyone with it.

There's a "new" strategy for Zawabi's Revenge called the Spartan Method. Simply put, melees form a wall and squishies stand behind them, all within easy reach of the mass cure that you can even have centered on yourself. That way 1 healer can heal the entire raid by cycling 2-3 out of the 4 mass cures (until they run out of SP). This is the preferred method for the epic version of the quest.

[Crinos]

Comments:
Piece 1: Poision resist is almost always buffed pre-fight. And If I remember correctly, Harry does not disease. Quickened, it is inefficent on SP. Unquickened, it is too slow to cast. If properly equipped, Heal, Mass < Cure X Wounds Mass

1. Harry does disease.
2. Why do you think quickened heal mass is inefficient on SP? I'm not trying to be confrontational. This is a serious question.
Mass Heal runs to 50SP, quickened Mass Heal is 60SP
It heals for 200*1.4 = 280HP for 60SP. That's 4.7 HP/SP

Piece 3: See Piece 2. Also, if you are properly equipped, Cure X Wounds Mass is less SP wasting than Heal, Mass.

Again, I'm not understanding why you think this is true.
Let's take base MCSW with enhancements and ardour.
MCSW runs to 40SP
It heals for up to 44HP*(1+ 0.4(enhancements) +0.75(Ardour))=95HP. That's 2.4 HP/SP, and thats the maximum on the dice rolls.

Even assuming best case RS enhancements on top, running empower healing at 75% we get
MCSW now costs 40+8=48SP
MCSW now heals for up to 44HP*(1+ 0.4(enhancements) +0.75(Ardour))*(1 + 0.75(Emp healing))=165HP
That's 3.4 HP/SP.

If my maths is wrong somewhere help me out. Otherwise I just don't see how MCXW is ever more efficient than Mass Heal, and I've done everything I can to swing things in favor of MCXW here.

[Habreno]

1. Harry does disease.
2. Why do you think quickened heal mass is inefficient on SP? I'm not trying to be confrontational. This is a serious question.
Mass Heal runs to 50SP, quickened Mass Heal is 60SP
It heals for 200*1.4 = 280HP for 60SP. That's 4.7 HP/SP


Again, I'm not understanding why you think this is true.
Let's take base MCSW with enhancements and ardour.
MCSW runs to 40SP
It heals for up to 44HP*(1+ 0.4(enhancements) +0.75(Ardour))=95HP. That's 2.4 HP/SP, and thats the maximum on the dice rolls.

Even assuming best case RS enhancements on top, running empower healing at 75% we get
MCSW now costs 40+8=48SP
MCSW now heals for up to 44HP*(1+ 0.4(enhancements) +0.75(Ardour))*(1 + 0.75(Emp healing))=165HP
That's 3.4 HP/SP.

If my maths is wrong somewhere help me out. Otherwise I just don't see how MCXW is ever more efficient than Mass Heal, and I've done everything I can to swing things in favor of MCXW here.

I apoligise that I did not fully explain. I had not realized that I'd said something like "properly equipped" and thought I'd included Lesser Maximize from the daggers. I personally find it most efficent, but I have ALL enhancements for Empower Healing, plus the necklace with -2 SP on Empower Healing, so my MCSW is 44 SP, and my MCMW is 39 SP. I have my Lesser Maximize running, which makes Maximize Spell cost 0 SP.

I think this may end up tipping the scales, or making them close enough for MCXW to be as viable unquickened as Mass Heal.

My apoligies on my forgetfulness.