Shroud Etiquette and why we as a server should stop screwing over newer players

[Quikster]

And others walk the line of both. Have enough self respect to know what is wrong and should never be done and what is not how they would do it but is a workable solution so it's fine to do it?

Again I'll say it...

It's not an us issue, It might be a you issue.

This speed run system works and only harms people if the raid fails or someone doesn't understand the rules for it. Do you really see that many fail shrouds by those who run this system?

I know lots of people who run successful groups and are still dbags. I didnt know the issue was completion, I thought the issue was people being d****

[Chai]

Heh, "every minute wasted running the Shroud is a minute we could be using to run the Shroud!"

Worf: There is the Theory of the Moebius, a twist in the fabric of space, where running the Shroud becomes a loop, from which there is no escape.

Geordi: When we reach that point, whatever happened will happen again.

[bryanmeerkat]

Because people probably wouldn't follow that complicated rule? "Don't open until the end" is simple. And part of a loot-at-end speedrun is the momentum of moving directly through parts 1-3 without stopping. Once you stop to loot, people will stop to shrine, buff, wait at the portals.



When you're done running those 6 Shrouds, you have 1.5 extra hours to run things that are not Shroud.

So its because people are to dumb to understand " No rolling for shards " but these same people are smart enough to understand "dont open chest "

"Ugg Ugg !!!"

Asuming this level of stupidity in people is wasting your time as you still have to go back to collect your loot .

[Aspenor]

Thx


I gotta agree with you and shade though. If I wanted to loot, and someone became a dbag about it, I would loot anyway. 99/100 times the only way they would ever know is by reading chat.

Forcing people not to loot has creeped its way up my dbag loot etiquette list. Being so controlling about it is lame. Its not hurting anything, its not causing grief on others, its simply a power play. Of course thats just my opinion, but its an informed one as someone who spent a lot of time leaving loot in chests in the shroud.

Agreed. I've left more than my fair share of loot behind. But if someone were to get mad at me for looting if I felt like it, they can go die in a fire.

Doesnt it actually take longer to go back at the end and loot the chests? I mean, it seems if you have to run through the whole quest again to pick up your chests when you are "Done", you are spending more time in-quest.

quest finished in "18 minutes" doesnt really mean anything if your still spending 20+ minutes inside.

Yes, it does take longer. Some people are really stupid, though...and others just need to have the shortest completion time to make them feel good about themselves.

[Elyanna]

I know lots of people who run successful groups and are still dbags. I didnt know the issue was completion, I thought the issue was people being d****

The point is those who post the LFM for the speed run isn't the Dbag as you so eloquently put it. The Dbag is the one who decides to buck the rules of the run. LFM= LOOKING FOR MORE, but it really means LOOKING FOR MORE TO RUN THE QUEST HOW I LEAD IT. Can there be discussion if something is sure to fail? Sure, but the loot at the end theory is never a sure to fail.

There is time saved for some who run this method. I can't quantify it since as I said earlier I've ran a few and found they really aren't for me. Now I bet those runs go smoother than when I was first trying them but a few of them left a bad taste in my mouth so I don't do them as a personal choice.

[Fallout]

I took a break for a while and did see alot of influx of new players.
For new players running raids like Shroud, it is a bit intimidating, because one person can ruin the raid. Then people in the group will be angry with this player. Happened when I joined a pug. Same with Hound etc.

Maybe every so often raid leaders can run a raid tutorial (Shroud etc) that is slower pace and walks through each phase. But just have to mix the right balance of class, levels and veteran players so the raid won't fail. The biggest issue with these raids, people don't know what to do, or what their rolls are.

Some raids are harder to practice, I only went to abbot a few times, don't have enough practice on the mini-games. Haven't tried the new raids after Shroud, trying to level up my toons now.

[Elyanna]

Yes, it does take longer. Some people are really stupid, though...and others just need to have the shortest completion time to make them feel good about themselves.

But the point still stands for those who don't want to roll on a shard or put a shard up for roll they will be done quicker than those who are rolling or putting shards up for roll.

[dkyle]

So its because people are to dumb to understand " No rolling for shards " but these same people are smart enough to understand "dont open chest "

I don't think you understand human nature. Once the chest is open, and the loot is there to be seen, there is a strong impulse to "deal with it now". Surely they didn't mean a quick pass to my friend? Oh, the healer's shrining, there must be time for a couple rolls.

Meanwhile, the healer's thinking: they're taking time to loot, I should shrine to get back my 20% of SP. Oh, I should really pass some buffs first.

Saving it until the end removes any ambiguity, and puts dealing with loot out-of-sight, out-of-mind until the end.

Asuming this level of stupidity in people is wasting your time as you still have to go back to collect your loot .

It takes ~1 minute to run through and loot, if you don't care about Shards. Loot-at-end runs I've been in have consistently been at least 10 minutes faster than even "semi-speed" runs.

Part of this is that loot-at-end is kind of like BYOH for quests: it just attracts a higher caliber of player.

[Aspenor]

But the point still stands for those who don't want to roll on a shard or put a shard up for roll they will be done quicker than those who are rolling or putting shards up for roll.

Not if they still have to do it at the end. Nothing is stopping the other players from moving on and not waiting for people to finish their rolls. I never do except at part 4.

Also, the time spent rerunning through the quest will approximately be equal to the time spent waiting for shards to roll/pass.

It really is a wash. It's just an ego thing.

[Elyanna]

Maybe every so often raid leaders can run a raid tutorial (Shroud etc) that is slower pace and walks through each phase. But just have to mix the right balance of class, levels and veteran players so the raid won't fail. The biggest issue with these raids, people don't know what to do, or what their rolls are.

I do these for my guild every so often, oh and sometimes I'll even try to set one to fail so as to teach why it failed. If there are spots open I will open them to non guildies but guildies get priority in my teaching raids.

I even post things for others to teach me on our guild calendar. The onus of learning is never on anyone but the person who wants to learn. No one can know what someone else knows or don't know.

[Elyanna]

Not if they still have to do it at the end. Nothing is stopping the other players from moving on and not waiting for people to finish their rolls. I never do except at part 4.

Also, the time spent rerunning through the quest will approximately be equal to the time spent waiting for shards to roll/pass.

It really is a wash. It's just an ego thing.

I'm sorry but I beg to differ. There have been plenty of runs I have ran where each chest took 5 minutes for the rolls/buffs so that's 20 mins if it happens in each round. Running back through each part and hitting loot all on every chest can be done in less than one haste spell.

[Quikster]

The point is those who post the LFM for the speed run isn't the Dbag as you so eloquently put it. The Dbag is the one who decides to buck the rules of the run. LFM= LOOKING FOR MORE, but it really means LOOKING FOR MORE TO RUN THE QUEST HOW I LEAD IT. Can there be discussion if something is sure to fail? Sure, but the loot at the end theory is never a sure to fail.

There is time saved for some who run this method. I can't quantify it since as I said earlier I've ran a few and found they really aren't for me. Now I bet those runs go smoother than when I was first trying them but a few of them left a bad taste in my mouth so I don't do them as a personal choice.

I disagree. Both can be, and usually are dbags. Blacklisting someone because they are looting? Cmon thats total dbag move.

There is no time saved if you loot. If you leave the loot in the chest, and recall, then yeah you can save some time. That said, it saves no time to run through at the end and loot everything.

The longest part about looting the actual chest, is opening of it. That time is present no matter if you complete and run through and loot, or if you loot on the run. There is absolutely no time saved, as a matter of fact, it takes longer to loot after completion. The difference is there is no chest opening time factored into the completion time on the xp report.

You can tout how much time is saved by looting at the end all you want, but as someone who has spend a lot of time figuring ways to cut 30 seconds off a shroud completion, its simply not there.

You can also argue that things should be done the way the raid leader wants. But im not buying. People should be allowed to loot the chest as it becomes available. People lose internet service, people lose power, emergencies come up, and on and on. To not allow these people to access their loot, for no logical reason, is nothing more than a power play.

[bryanmeerkat]

I don't think you understand human nature. Once the chest is open, and the loot is there to be seen, there is a strong impulse to "deal with it now". Surely they didn't mean a quick pass to my friend? Oh, the healer's shrining, there must be time for a couple rolls.

Meanwhile, the healer's thinking: they're taking time to loot, I should shrine to get back my 20% of SP. Oh, I should really pass some buffs first.

Saving it until the end removes any ambiguity, and puts dealing with loot out-of-sight, out-of-mind until the end.

I dont think you could be more wrong . But lets face it ,I know I am right , you know you are right . One of us is wrong . Your going to keep your point of view and me mine .
You are wrong though

[crazydamage]

I have been running shroud lfms for quite some time now with a 1 word LFM:

"Speed"

What this means is that we don't **** around (max dps, everyone including the healer is whacking portals).
Dont prep in part2, just drop the slowest and then the others right away.

DDOR is always an option, sometimes if only 1 person is leaving, I ask them to recall at low HP in part 5.

Everyone can always loot, but if you spend more than 1 minute rolling on a shard you will be told not to.

Personally, I never cared for the term "semi speed".

I have also started using the term "speed" for reaver.
This means that everyone will get to the quest on time. We will short man if necessary. We have a solver in place etc etc. Basically no ****ing around.

[Quikster]

I'm sorry but I beg to differ. There have been plenty of runs I have ran where each chest took 5 minutes for the rolls/buffs so that's 20 mins if it happens in each round. Running back through each part and hitting loot all on every chest can be done in less than one haste spell.

And that has nothing to do with the actual mechanic of looting the chest. Roll off for shards for parts 1/3/4 while beating portals in part 1. Three rolls take 30 seconds. d20 for shards of power, d30 for shards of great power, d40 for shards of supreme power. It can be assigned on the fly.

Buffs? Thats easy, stop buffing. Have 1 person assigned to throw fom on all who cant get their own, haste/rage/songs can be done on the fly. If anyone needs anything else they can send a tell to a ranger/paly/caster for their own lil fire resist or whatever.

[Chai]

The point is those who post the LFM for the speed run isn't the Dbag as you so eloquently put it. The Dbag is the one who decides to buck the rules of the run. LFM= LOOKING FOR MORE, but it really means LOOKING FOR MORE TO RUN THE QUEST HOW I LEAD IT. Can there be discussion if something is sure to fail? Sure, but the loot at the end theory is never a sure to fail.

There is time saved for some who run this method. I can't quantify it since as I said earlier I've ran a few and found they really aren't for me. Now I bet those runs go smoother than when I was first trying them but a few of them left a bad taste in my mouth so I don't do them as a personal choice.

Naaa. Its the d-bag who tries to force their rules on others whose at fault for this type of hilarity ensuing. We cant banter the 100% - 0% case scenario where one party assumes all fault, when these types of pi$$ing contents are between two or more people. The fact that this even happens in the first place as often as it does tells me that people dont want to have to communicate beyond typing one line into the LFM. - Which fails more often than not, but hey, it generates these interesting threads on the forums.

Quantification? Congrats, we have spent more time moaning about this issue on the forums than the entirety of all time saved doing speed runs added up. I have no way to quantify that either, I just know its the case. Giving people the option to complete or leave is like 2 minutes. Whats the problem?

[Quikster]

Naaa. Its the d-bag who tries to force their rules on others whose at fault for this type of hilarity ensuing. We cant banter the 100% - 0% case scenario where one party assumes all fault, when these types of pi$$ing contents are between two or more people. The fact that this even happens in the first place as often as it does tells me that people dont want to have to communicate beyond typing one line into the LFM. - Which fails more often than not, but hey, it generates these interesting threads on the forums.

Quantification? Congrats, we have spent more time moaning about this issue on the forums than the entirety of all time saved doing speed runs added up. I have no way to quantify that either, I just know its the case.

Not quite. Ive spent lots more time in slow and go shrouds then i'll ever spend on this thread

[Elyanna]

I disagree. Both can be, and usually are dbags. Blacklisting someone because they are looting? Cmon thats total dbag move.

There is no time saved if you loot. If you leave the loot in the chest, and recall, then yeah you can save some time. That said, it saves no time to run through at the end and loot everything.

The longest part about looting the actual chest, is opening of it. That time is present no matter if you complete and run through and loot, or if you loot on the run. There is absolutely no time saved, as a matter of fact, it takes longer to loot after completion. The difference is there is no chest opening time factored into the completion time on the xp report.

You can tout how much time is saved by looting at the end all you want, but as someone who has spend a lot of time figuring ways to cut 30 seconds off a shroud completion, its simply not there.

You can also argue that things should be done the way the raid leader wants. But im not buying. People should be allowed to loot the chest as it becomes available. People lose internet service, people lose power, emergencies come up, and on and on. To not allow these people to access their loot, for no logical reason, is nothing more than a power play.

Yes to blacklist would be a dbag move on the first run that they do it. But then they would have learned the rules and future runs if they continue I can see blacklisting which I don't actively do by the way. I may have people I choose to not run with if I have other options but I don't openly say I would never ever run with someone again.

I think previous posts by me and others do explain the time savings. Rolling and rebuffing at the end of parts 1 and 2 which invariably starts once someone loots and puts up a shard for roll.

Have I had things like you state at the end happen to me? Sure I have. Heck it happened to me yesterday my internet provider dropped. Did I lose loot? No but I was darn close to losing the end chests of an Epic Chrono by about 1 minute. We looted I recalled and as I went to get the reward my ISP drops me and it was down when I left for the office today. I spent last night playing via mobile broadband which limits what I do. I might complain a bit but guess what I know it's out of my control and take the consequences.

I've also lost a chest because someone looted while I was dc'ed. We can twist this each way and it's still not going to have any bearing on if it was a loot as you go or don't loot as you go run. Things happen that are out of our control and will have an effect on someone.

[Quikster]

Yes to blacklist would be a dbag move on the first run that they do it. But then they would have learned the rules and future runs if they continue I can see blacklisting which I don't actively do by the way. I may have people I choose to not run with if I have other options but I don't openly say I would never ever run with someone again.

I think previous posts by me and others do explain the time savings. Rolling and rebuffing at the end of parts 1 and 2 which invariably starts once someone loots and puts up a shard for roll.

Have I had things like you state at the end happen to me? Sure I have. Heck it happened to me yesterday my internet provider dropped. Did I lose loot? No but I was darn close to losing the end chests of an Epic Chrono by about 1 minute. We looted I recalled and as I went to get the reward my ISP drops me and it was down when I left for the office today. I spent last night playing via mobile broadband which limits what I do. I might complain a bit but guess what I know it's out of my control and take the consequences.

I've also lost a chest because someone looted while I was dc'ed. We can twist this each way and it's still not going to have any bearing on if it was a loot as you go or don't loot as you go run. Things happen that are out of our control and will have an effect on someone.

Shard rolling once again can happen while beating portals. Loot all and run to next part. If buffing is going on, something is wrong. Trust me when I say, there is no quantifiable way to twist looting at the end being faster other than on the xp report. If you dont believe me, test it.

[Elyanna]

Shard rolling once again can happen while beating portals. Loot all and run to next part. If buffing is going on, something is wrong. Trust me when I say, there is no quantifiable way to twist looting at the end being faster other than on the xp report. If you dont believe me, test it.

You added the option of rolling during part one as I was responding, which is a viable alternative and I will accept it. But if that is not done, I will say that running through not stopping until part 3 to rebuff and still not looting until completion will be faster than most normal pug ddoor option shrouds on Khyber. Just my view from one who runs a bunch of shrouds.