Shroud Etiquette and why we as a server should stop screwing over newer players

[flynnjsw]

A simple forum thread does not force anything.

Rules in a LFM do.

I suggest you get off your high horse and accept the fact that others have the right to choose.

You choose not to care. Congrats. But thats enough, you need not reply further.

See you have no idea how wrong you are.

People can choose. You see 2 LFM's. One for a no loot until completion run, and one for a normal run. YOU choose which one to join. Plain and simple. Anything beyond that is something in your own mind.

[bryanmeerkat]

Not completing the Shroud is dumb anyway. The guaranteed Large Ingredients dropped in the Part 5 are more valuable than repeated loot runs. By the time you have all the Larges you need through completion, you will have all the smalls and mediums you would have farmed anyway. Not to mention you are that many more completion to a +3 time or cleansing item.

Farming the shroud is a myth like the D-door at the end.

People farm this to ransack part 4 which also produces larges , nothing more , although all the early parts can be formed into clickies .

[Shade]

Not completing the Shroud is dumb anyway. The guaranteed Large Ingredients dropped in the Part 5 are more valuable than repeated loot runs. By the time you have all the Larges you need through completion, you will have all the smalls and mediums you would have farmed anyway. Not to mention you are that many more completion to a +3 time or cleansing item.

Farming the shroud is a myth like the D-door at the end.

Not a myth.

I lead the first group to ever craft tier 3 shroud loot in DDO history for a reason. And I was among the first on the server to craft a mineral2 weapon for a reason. I always ransacked 1-4.

As at the time few players had ~4-10+ alts.

If you have lots of alts: Yep complete.
If you do not have any alts but have time to farm lots of runs: Don't.

Not a myth.

Give players the choice.

[Chai]

Not completing the Shroud is dumb anyway. The guaranteed Large Ingredients dropped in the Part 5 are more valuable than repeated loot runs. By the time you have all the Larges you need through completion, you will have all the smalls and mediums you would have farmed anyway. Not to mention you are that many more completion to a +3 time or cleansing item.

Farming the shroud is a myth like the D-door at the end.

Yeap, exactly.

The only real solid consistent way to farm the shroud that gains faster double sharded tier 3 items is by having multiple toons run every three days.

The ONE exception I could see is if someone ran a few completions to get shards, has one capped toon but ALOT of money and buys most of their t3 ingredients after farming. I still dont think this would hold out over time like having multiple toons running completions does though.

[Terebinthia]

This thread is hurting my brain.

I see WAY more D Door LFMs up than I do speed runs, anyway, so it feels like there's plenty of choice out there. I do accept that may be a time zone thing though (GMT here)

Personally I always complete since with two divine casters it's nice to say "Sorry on timer" once in a while. Plus I'm still working on cleansing essences for one of them.

As long as it's clear in the LFM what sort of run it is, where's the harm?

*fails to compute*

[Eladiun]

I lead the first group to ever craft tier 3 shroud loot in DDO history for a reason. And I was among the first on the server to craft a mineral2 weapon for a reason. I always ransacked 1-4.

Welcome to 2011... MOD 6 released in 2008 but here's your virtual pat on the back.

[Chai]

Not a myth.

I lead the first group to ever craft tier 3 shroud loot in DDO history for a reason. And I was among the first on the server to craft a mineral2 weapon for a reason. I always ransacked 1-4.

As at the time few players had ~4-10+ alts.

If you have lots of alts: Yep complete.
If you do not have any alts but have time to farm lots of runs: Don't.

Not a myth.

Give players the choice.

They do have the choice, and moreover if someone starts griefing again by making them complete it is the griefer that gets blacklisted, and not the people who wanted the DDoor.

I give players the choice even though I know farming 1-4 in most cases is worse nowdays because what other people want to do really doesnt bother me, + waiting 2 minutes to pop a DDoor and get those who want to farm out of the zone isnt really that big of a deal.

The mentality that causes the hilarity to ensue in Shroud runs is: ZOMG you want me to wait TWO WHOLE MINUTES for you to LEAVE?? That's inconceivable!!!

[bryanmeerkat]

Yeap, exactly.

The only real solid consistent way to farm the shroud that gains faster double sharded tier 3 items is by having multiple toons run every three days.

The ONE exception I could see is if someone ran a few completions to get shards, has one capped toon but ALOT of money and buys most of their t3 ingredients after farming. I still dont think this would hold out over time like having multiple toons running completions does though.

Am I the only one that ever gets larges from the chests in part 4 ? ? ?

[Shade]

As long as it's clear in the LFM what sort of run it is, where's the harm?

*fails to compute*

The harm is the effect on our servers image as a whole.

This type of thing while rare right now, could spread and get worse, or more players could care more about new players and it could get better.

Having the message here to educate people about whats exactly going on so they can make educated choices can only help.

Sometimes new players only choice will be that LFM they don't want to join. And that leaves often leaves them with a bad feeling about the community as a whole.

I know it's hard to grasp for most of us who have multiple characters or who would just lead our own raids.

But the image is there. Multiple raid leaders do this. And it doesn't happen on other servers.

There's also people who judge too quickly. Someone might be looking for their first shroud, and all they see is those types of LFMs. They judge the server harshly from that one night alone and think about a server transfer. Very unlikely scenario for sure, but the fact taht it can happen is my issue.

Khyber should be a friendlier place.

[dkyle]

Give players the choice.

You act like DDoor Shrouds are extinct. They're not. I don't think I've even seen a no-loot LFM in weeks, and I've only done a handful of no-loot runs among over 80 Shroud completions.

People have a choice. There are runs for vets, and there are runs for new players. As long as there are plenty of options for new players (and there are), there is nothing wrong with vets wanting to run quickly and efficiently.

Edit: I also see little reason to believe no-loot runs are taking over. They've been around for a while now, and I've not seen them increase in popularity.

[sweez]

If someone just has 1 toon they can still finish Shroud every time and then farm Amrath quests for GS mats and boot mats (which they can trade for GS mats) during their Shroud timer. Sure, in Amrath quests you prolly can't pike as much as you can in Shroud, but still, you'll avoid the perma-brain-damage you can get from Shroud farming.

[Chai]

Am I the only one that ever gets larges from the chests in part 4 ? ? ?

Comparing the drop rate of part 4 to the guaranteed large drop rate in part 5, and add in that you need to double shard weapons to give them the properties you want, and we clearly see that the best ways to farm are to run multiple capped toons.

I know what we did at the end of 2007 start of 2008 with one capped toon we put most of our focus on, but its 2011 now.

And I dont have an issue with throwing a DDoor up and waiting 2 minutes. Its no biggie, but if someone really wants to craft items quickly, multiple capped toons completing is the way to go.

[Eladiun]

If someone just has 1 toon they can still finish Shroud every time and then farm Amrath quests for GS mats and boot mats (which they can trade for GS mats) during their Shroud timer. Sure, in Amrath quests you prolly can't pike as much as you can in Shroud, but still, you'll avoid the perma-brain-damage you can get from Shroud farming.

Skip Amarath ; farm Elite (or Epic) Devil's Assault.

[Shade]

Clairified my goals with this thread and added disclaimers for all the people misinterpreting my overall message here.

[Terebinthia]

See, despite all the professional grumpiness on the forums, I think Khyber is very friendly to newbies if they want to learn and are honest about not knowing stuff. I would still categorise myself as a semi-newbie (been playing since Feb last year) and when I've been clear about not knowing a quest well there's never any issues. However, I don't join zerg runs for things I don't know well and I'm not sure I see the distinction between a Shroud and any other zerg run.

Piking failsters, yes, there's less patience for piking noob failsters on Khyber. But personally I see that as a good thing.

I just can't see the hypothesis that a person might plop down a pile of Turbine points to change server based on a sticky PUG or two.

I actually do teach quite a lot in the Shroud. We always have a trickle of guildies coming into their first Shroud, and I regularly run with a friend where we fill most of the spots with known quantities and then are happy to take whoever, including complete newbies. Those Shrouds can be very fun and rewarding, if the newb is a newb not a noob. But I completely understand why someone might not be in the zone of wanting to do that too.

[bryanmeerkat]

Comparing the drop rate of part 4 to the guaranteed large drop rate in part 5, and add in that you need to double shard weapons to give them the properties you want, and we clearly see that the best ways to farm are to run multiple capped toons.

I know what we did at the end of 2007 start of 2008 with one capped toon we put most of our focus on, but its 2011 now.

And I dont have an issue with throwing a DDoor up and waiting 2 minutes. Its no biggie, but if someone really wants to craft items quickly, multiple capped toons completing is the way to go.

Thats not whatwas said though is it , running multi-toon was the only way was the comment . Which aint true , the ransack option will double the speed of your completion of shroud items .

[Eladiun]

And I dont have an issue with throwing a DDoor up and waiting 2 minutes. Its no biggie, but if someone really wants to craft items quickly, multiple capped toons completing is the way to go.

My only issue with the D-Door is that it's unnecessary. The bug that required a D-Door has been fixed for ages yet people still insist on a D-Door. It's faster to just recall and there is no chance of any of the D-Door accidents occurring. I cast Break Enchantment on any D-Door thrown in a Shroud I am running.

[anto_capone]

Best reason to not complete:

[jkm]

wow, norg is going to nuke this thread from orbit since you are almost specifically talking about his raids.

1. the 1 minute statement. the actual amount of time in quest actually varies quite a bit. most of the no loot/no dd runs i've been on are between 15 and 25 minutes. semi-speed runs range from 19-65 minutes with the occasional non-completion do to part 4 wipe.

2. semi-speed is put up to attract vets. every single one of us has been snookered into a semi-speed group where we are the only ones that have weapons that bypass DR.

3. while i admire what you want for new players, there are some vets that shouldn't mix with them. i have seen a group recall out at part 3 and start over because of the tounge lashing they got from a vet in part 1 and 2. it wasn't that the vet was wrong, they were just more interested in talking than beating portals down.

[Elyanna]

This isn't about "newbies"

It's about "newer players"

There's a difference in that. Some new players are fairly hardcore and play for many hours a week. They may already be level20 and do not wish to roll an alt right away, they'd rather get there greensteel and move on up to Epics.

Other new players may simply wish to complete every time.

The point is, they should be given the choice. They are part of our community and they deserve that much at aleast.

The point most people are saying that I agree with is ...The current LFM situation on Khyber benefits us all.

Why?

1) if you join a Speed Shroud as currently explained you know what you are getting. You are getting a completion, you are getting your loot when you complete. If you don't get the completion you don't get the loot. Plain simple and what you are agreeing to by joining that group.

2) If you join a SemiSpeed Shroud, you know you are getting the loot as you go and the option to DDoor or finish out before those who want completion are getting it.

3) Farming to PartX you know you are not getting a completion and you are getting the loot up through that part.

It's plain and simple and a case of READ the LFM and make sure it's what you want. What you are requesting is almost like the person who joins a normal Waterworks run and then DEMANDS to go in on ELITE. Sorry I just don't see what the deal is. The leader makes the LFM and anyone who joins it should be agreeable to those rules or not join it. I've wasted time looking for an LFM I wish to run but I understand the system and how it works and it's fine how it works now.