Shroud Etiquette and why we as a server should stop screwing over newer players

[sephiroth1084]

Damage-wise, all the Str buffs apply equally to both builds, so Madstone, Yugo, Rage, etc... are all irrelevant. Honestly, the only difference between the two, really, is starting Str and another 5 points.

To-hit is another issue. Halflings are unlikely to be Str-based due to their penalty to Str, though there are some who go this route. Other differences arise on DPS, such as extra PA from WF (likely problematic with the monk's lack of to-hit bonuses), extra Str and PA from half-orc, etc...

My point was that the difference is pretty small as it really is only about 11 points, MAX, on Str, or about 5 points' difference in damage before crits.

A lot of people overlook this when comparing Str to Dex builds. On damage, yeah, we want that extra +5, but it isn't going to be the difference between an uber build and a gimp, or even an uber and a mediocre. You don't go from being okay to incredible DPS just by putting on the Epic Claw set, and that's basically the same difference in damage.

To-hit,a gain, is another matter, and the Str-based version wins there in most cases. Still, if you go Dex-based on the halfling, +2 starting Dex and +2 AP, then +3 or +4 Halfling Guile, that's +4 to +5 to-hit which makes up for rage and Madstone not contributing here.

The differences just aren't as big as people make them out to be, and are definitely able to be compensated for sufficiently.

[seldarin]

Never once in the history of DDO have I put up a lfm that says "know the quest" or "know it"

I might have put one that says "know the way" IF i was alreayd in progress, and it was such a complicated route ot th quest that I simply felt I could not guide a player along quickly enough to get in the quest in time for credit.

So no, that must of been someone else your thinking of.

However I do set certain requirements for some of my LFMs. And I have no problem with others who do either.

Some of my recent ones on my TRs while levleing have things like "TR's prefered" .. And thats simply a warning/recommendation to let people know what to expect, I often take non TRs , its not a requirement.


I only take issue with the mentality of doing things that definetely have a very small benefit to the leader, while definetely screw over new players such as I mentioned.. but despite my issue, I have never told anyone how to run their groups, or ever sent a tell to someone with a weird lfm asking them to change it.

Everyone has the right to run there own groups however they see fit.

All im asking is for players to make the choice to pick LFMs that dont needlessly screw over new players, vs ones that do.

Things like "know it" , etc.. Can cause issue for new players, but can also save them a ton of agrevation if the leader simply refuses to help them along the way, and as such could save signficant amount of time for both parties invovled.

Doing something dumb like looting at the end and enforcing a "no ddoor" policy saves so little time that it's just not worth it.

Anyways, I think Khbyer is improving, because I haven't seen any such LFMs at all since I made this thread. So good job khyber =)

Regardless, the way I run my group is not up for discussion here, thats very much off topic imo. As the OP says several times, Im not telling anyone how to run there own groups. I'm just asking players in general to make the better choices when looking for a shroud raid to join.

Actually Axer, the way you run your group is very much up for discussion. You put forward how you believe others should run their shrouds, to take out the speed run/non looting option. How is that any different to how you run your group. They run their group that way, but you want them to change?

But again i ask, why only limit it to Shroud? Most lfms i see set shroud groups at 18-20and thats on normal, yet at previous cap without half the weapons we have now we were running it on elite with lvl 16 chars.

It would appear that you put forward the notion that others should modify how they run THEIR groups, but when YOURS are called into question you say the opposite thing. Lead by example i always say. You want others to modify how they do things, then lead the way, set and example. The example you have set is to exclude all classes from YOUR groups except what YOU deem to meet YOUR needs. Most of your LFMs i have seen are setup in a way to ensure that you alone are the centre of attention, cleric strapped to your hip etc. You reckon its to do with not finding other melees who can keep up with you, outkill you etc, isnt the purpose of a quest to complete it, not as to who has the biggest sword?

But i forget myself at times that a measure of a person is leading an imaginary leaderboard in a virtual world. Last time i checked, there wasnt a killcount leaderboard was there? If i complete a quest on normal or hard or elite, it only shows up as me completing it on normal, hard or elite, doesnt keep a track of whether or not that quest i completed 2 months ago that i outkilled everyone else. Lot of posts i read in here point to an ego thing, rather than getting the job done and a few people i have come across from other servers express that very opinion.

[Scortius]

They certainly do exist. And I consider myself very lucky when I join one; wish they were more common.

<20 min Shroud completions are a beautiful thing.

Indeed fast and smooth completions are beautiful.

But Two cents worth: just because it says Speed or semi-Speed in the LFM doesn't mean it won't take > 15 minutes to fill and >32 minutes to complete.

[Antheal]

Wow, do people on Khyber really have hissy fit temper tantrums if people loot their chests?

No wonder Khyber has it's reputation.

[Shade]

Lead by example i always say.

I do. My shrouds and most other raids I do are always very inclusive and I always welcome new players. Maybe you missed my twice week epic dragons i post. Selective reeading it seems.

How I decide to level my double TRs is not even close to a fair comparison.

All the nonsense your talking about is just comparion apples to oranges. Just seems like a poor troll attempt.

I you feel so strongly, tho, why don't you go lead by example.

I don't see you running twice weekly epic raids that welcome any players new or not. all I see you do is trolling a big long thread that does nothing but try to improve the image of the server.

[Shade]

Damage-wise, all the Str buffs apply equally to both builds, so Madstone, Yugo, Rage, etc... are all irrelevant. Honestly, the only difference between the two, really, is starting Str and another 5 points.

Maybe in a magical fantasy world where the dex-based guy doesn't wear dex items like a str build might not.. And also somehow hits everything on a 2.

The slots you waste on items that up dex, could be changed around to increases strength instead in some cases. Thus it's not simple comparions thats just equal beyond the base/lvl ups.

[dkyle]

But Two cents worth: just because it says Speed or semi-Speed in the LFM doesn't mean it won't take > 15 minutes to fill and >32 minutes to complete.

I see this all the time with "semi-speed" runs. It's why I consider the designation meaningless; it has no teeth.

Loot-at-end speed runs? Never had that problem. Even in the run where we got someone who decided to craft in part 1.

[Ghaldar]

Wow, do people on Khyber really have hissy fit temper tantrums if people loot their chests?

No wonder Khyber has it's reputation.

Of being the best server?

[stainer]

Maybe in a magical fantasy world where the dex-based guy doesn't wear dex items like a str build might not.. And also somehow hits everything on a 2.

The slots you waste on items that up dex, could be changed around to increases strength instead in some cases. Thus it's not simple comparions thats just equal beyond the base/lvl ups.

My wis/dex finesse lt monk does great in epics. I have even completed epics with no barbarians at all. I know you are shocked, and possibly dismayed but it is true. Generally the arcane, bard and healer have more sp since they don't have to cater to a needy character. It is win for everybody and worth the imaginary dps loss.

[PopeJual]

Maybe in a magical fantasy world where

I love when people use this phrase in arguments about DDO.

[Chette]

My wis/dex finesse lt monk does great in epics. I have even completed epics with no barbarians at all. I know you are shocked, and possibly dismayed but it is true. Generally the arcane, bard and healer have more sp since they don't have to cater to a needy character. It is win for everybody and worth the imaginary dps loss.

Agreed. I've yet to see a strength based monk can stun as effectively as a wis based monk, and almost most wisdom based monks are finesse builds. There are a few options for using str-to hit, particularly for half-orc, fire stance, or both, but overall, your strength on those characters isn't going to be *that* much higher than a finesse build. Putting points into strength is IMO a completely different build, and one I'm not particularly interested in. I'd much rather have a 3 higher DC on all my stuns and curses than 3 extra points of damage.

[enntense]

Epics are all about dps! ..now who said that? Of course the truth is theres 1 possibly 2 mobs in each epic you can't CC. And just about any group can flounder through that. The rest of the time CC trumps DPS. Frankly the cleric wielding 2 heavy picks is doing fine. Id rather take any high dc monk than , well, any other melee. P.S. DDO is a tiny little easy MMO, don't get all grand.

[Disavowed]

How the F is omitting every melee class in the game except for you helping the newbs? According to your thread you want us to help the newbs. According to you no other melee is worthy of running with you because you're so uber. Well then bring some newb melees along and teach them to be as uber as you if you truly want to help the newbs.

The truth is you could care less about the newbs only your ego and your loot. In no way is omitting all melee classes from your pugs helping newbs. Nor does it teach healers or casters how to be anything but your lackey. Basically, it's a group of your human hirelings and nothing more. They learn nothing from doing that.

Oh and here's the Axer ego in effect one more time people. "Anyways, I think Khbyer is improving, because I haven't seen any such LFMs at all since I made this thread. So good job khyber =)". Yes people, his post in here changed LFMs on Khyber for ever and the newbs are saved from speed Shroud runs because there will never be another one posted. Why? It's all because of him and how great he is. Axer speaks and everyone listens to the king of all of us DDO geeks.

As I said before. Who cares how uber you are. It's Dungeons and Dragons. Go out in the real world and brag about how you're the most uberest person in DDO. Better yet, go tell the hot chick with the smoking body at the bar/night club about your uber kill count and how awsome you are at Dungeons and Dragons. I'm certian she's going to stop what she's doing right then and there and drop to her knees and please you just because your so uber at Dungeons and Dragons. NOT!!!!!!! She's going to send you packing. Let me guess? This is a foriegn concept to you (talking to a woman about something other than DDO). If this is correct, ask yourself this. Could it be because your only accomplishment in life is your uber kill count on Dungeons and Dragons?

People in the real world laugh at us and make fun of us for playing this game as it is. So being the king of DDO really isn't much of an accomplishment. If you're going to have an ego. Have it about something more meaningfull.

[stainer]

How the F is omitting every melee class in the game except for you helping the newbs? According to your thread you want us to help the newbs. According to you no other melee is worthy of running with you because you're so uber. Well then bring some newb melees along and teach them to be as uber as you if you truly want to help the newbs.

The truth is you could care less about the newbs only your ego and your loot. In no way is omitting all melee classes from your pugs helping newbs. Nor does it teach healers or casters how to be anything but your lackey. Basically, it's a group of your human hirelings and nothing more. They learn nothing from doing that.

Oh and here's the Axer ego in effect one more time people. "Anyways, I think Khbyer is improving, because I haven't seen any such LFMs at all since I made this thread. So good job khyber =)". Yes people, his post in here changed LFMs on Khyber for ever and the newbs are saved from speed Shroud runs because there will never be another one posted. Why? It's all because of him and how great he is. Axer speaks and everyone listens to the king of all of us DDO geeks.

As I said before. Who cares how uber you are. It's Dungeons and Dragons. Go out in the real world and brag about how you the most uberest person in DDO. Better yet, go tell the hot chick with the smoking body at the bar/night club about your uber kill count and how awsome you are at Dungeons and Dragons. I'm certian she's going to stop what she's doing right then and there and drop to her knees and please you. Just because your so uber at Dungeons and Dragons. NOT!!!!!!! She's going to send you packing. Let me guess? This is a foriegn concept to you (talking to a woman about something other than DDO). If this is correct, ask yourself this. Could it be because your only accomplishment in life is your uber kill count on Dungeons and Dragons?

People in the real world laugh at us and make fun of us for playing this game as it is. So being the king of DDO really isn't much of an accomplishment. If you're going to have an ego. Have it about something more meaningfull.

I now have a topic of conversation for Friday night.

[Thrudh]

Trust me they still happen

Wow Shade, that's pretty pathetic... You're STILL making LFMs with you and 5 casters?

[Thrudh]

I just gave up and accepted the fact that in order for them to contribute on the quests I run on my Barbarians, they will need a extreme level of skill/gear/build that most pugs simply cannot attain... As such, getting into my groups as a melee will always be rather difficult - youd have to convince me that you can make a reasonably contribution to the kills/dps.

LOL... This is just pure awesome...

Shade... how in the world can you tell others to "help out the new players", yet you won't take any on YOUR runs unless they can convince you that they have the "extreme level of skill/gear/build" that you do?

[Disavowed]

LOL... This is just pure awesome...

Shade... how in the world can you tell others to "help out the new players", yet you won't take any on YOUR runs unless they can convince you that they have the "extreme level of skill/gear/build" that you do?

+1

That's what I was trying to say but in way fewer words.

[Inkblack]

Please tell me someone is saving this for the vault. I want to be able to read the unpruned version of this at some point, and today is a busy work day.

[Mithran]

I don't think I've ever run with Axer because he almost always runs exclusively with non-melee types and I prefer to run on melee specialists. My understanding is that those runs are pretty good, but I've never joined them because I'm fundamentally put off by anyone who structures their runs in what I'd regard as a self-centered manner. I similarly won't run with anyone who excludes my Ranger, Paladin, and Rogue builds from their melee LFM's.

My point is that while I'm friends with those who are taking issue with Axer here, we've all known how he runs and you either accept it and take the completion on a non-melee build or you do as I have done hitherto and don't run with him. Nevertheless, I've never taken issue with him on how he constructs his runs; I've just never participated.

[Disavowed]

I don't think I've ever run with Axer because he almost always runs exclusively with non-melee types and I prefer to run on melee specialists. My understanding is that those runs are pretty good, but I've never joined them because I'm fundamentally put off by anyone who structures their runs in what I'd regard as a self-centered manner. I similarly won't run with anyone who excludes my Ranger, Paladin, and Rogue builds from their melee LFM's.

My point is that while I'm friends with those who are taking issue with Axer here, we've all known how he runs and you either accept it and take the completion on a non-melee build or you do as I have done hitherto and don't run with him. Nevertheless, I've never taken issue with him on how he constructs his runs; I've just never participated.

Like you I won't run with him because of how he structures his lfms. My beef is that he says we're hindering the newbs. Yet his very own lfms do the same. This had nothing to do with help the newbs. It was about how he couldn't read an lfm and tried to side step it and build himself as the savior of the newbs. While using the forums as a platform to do so.

He can do what he wants and run how he wants. I don't care because I won't run with him. But when he starts telling people not to join my speed Shroud runs and say it's in the name of the newbs. When his lfms are far more segregating. That's just too hypocritical for me.