Shroud Etiquette and why we as a server should stop screwing over newer players

[sirgog]

+1. Karaoke time...

May I have your attention please?

May I have your attention please?

Will the real Slim Shade please stand up?

I repeat, will the real Slim Shade please stand up?

We're gonna have a problem here..

Y'all act like you never seen a slow PUG before
Jaws all on the floor like Aspenor just bust in the door
and started talkin trash worse than before
he's worse than a curse, throwin up over furniture (Ahh!)

It's the return of the... "Ah, wait, no way, you're kidding,
he didn't just say what I think he did, did he?"
And Tarrant said... NOTHING you idiots!
Tarrant's banned, he's blocked from the website! (Ha-ha!)

PUGs call Axer for the win
"Slim Shade, I'm sick of him
Look at him, walkin around swingin his you-know-what,
like he's the who's who," "Yeah, but he's so cute though!"

Yeah, he probably got a couple of screws up in his head loose
But no worse, than what's goin on in your airship's bathrooms
Sometimes, he gets on the forums and gets loud, and says
it's not cool for Norg to run a fast Shroud.

"No looting on the way, no looting on the way"
And if you're unlucky, you might just get a little kick
And that's the message that we deliver to little kids
And expect them to know where the **** quest is

Of course they gonna know what house it's in
By the time they hit tenth level
They got teleport don't they?

"It ain't all about dineros.." Well, some of us be vandals
who pop chests open like cannibals
But if they can ban zerging and run like a slowpoke
then there's no reason that a man can't make his run smoke

But if you feel like I feel, Norg's got the antidote
Wenches wave your underhose, sing the chorus and it goes

Where's Slim Shade, yes the real Shade
This other Slim Shade is just imitating
So won't the real Slim Shade please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up?

Where's Slim Shade, yes the real Shade
This other Slim Shade is just imitating
So won't the real Slim Shade please stand up,
please stand up, please stand up?

[Lifeblood]

I don't get it, is this a Khyber-only thing where drama threads evolve even from well-intentioned threads like this?

IMO this is not a well intentioned thread By the Op..this is an I got butt hurt because i didn't read the lfm and someone told me i was bad thread

possibly combined with:
I need a new group of new players to follow me around in my raids and tell me how uber I am. So I'll go to the forums and make myself sound compassionate and caring to trick them into running with me

Hes not reaching out to Khyber hes reaching somewhere else to stroke his ego

[Disavowed]

+1 very creative.

[Disavowed]

IMO this is not a well intentioned thread By the Op..this is an I got butt hurt because i didn't read the lfm and someone told me i was bad thread

possibly combined with:
I need a new group of new players to follow me around in my raids and tell me how uber I am. So I'll go to the forums and make myself sound compassionate and caring to trick them into running with me

Hes not reaching out to Khyber hes reaching somewhere else to stroke his ego

It does look that way.

[lord_of_rage]

Axer when was the last time before you quit you helped new players? Please provide examples. Remember screenshot or it didnt happen. You are the same person who would fill runs with yourself as the only melee. Why would you do that? Well because of your fragile ego. You couldnt stand to be out killed by someone else.Eury's monk out killing your barb is a great example. Or you had a piece of loot you wanted and you wanted the maximum chance at it. You USE other players as a vehicle for your own greed. Your videos and "dps" challenge were always completely skewed to your very biased point. Your build posts were more to inflate your own ego than to provide a great build.

All your posts lead back to you. YOU accomplished this. YOU did that. YOU established said way of doing something. Do YOU notice a pattern yet? This has nothing to do with new players who YOU have honestly never cared about to begin with. It has to do with YOU. YOU are not happy with how a shroud was ran. So YOU ignored what the raid leader asked. Now YOU are complaining about it. YOU want people to ignore those lfms so it will no longer happen to YOU. But if someone ignored what YOU said when YOU led a raid YOU would have flipped on them. YOU would probobly blacklist them. Judge not lest ye be judged Axer.

[Shade]

IMO this is not a well intentioned thread By the Op..this is an I got butt hurt because i didn't read the lfm and someone told me i was bad thread

For the record. I NEVER click LFMs. Ever. (Unless specificly asked to do so after I was invited into a group, and even then I avoid doing so)

I run my own groups.

The only time I join others groups is when specificly requested to do so.

The time I joined such a speed run was such a case. So far as what the LFM said, was irrelevant. I was directly invited.

I wasn't really mad at that particular raid leader.

What I don't like is the overall concept of it, and the fact that multiple raid leaders do it. What one person does, does not concern me.

What the servers defition of a "speedrun" as a whole does.

Think what you want. But this isn't about me. And isn't about 1 specific raid leader.

It is a well intentioned thread brought on simply by my thoughts on the situations and will remain that way. I hardly ever run shroud anyways.

Last one I did, I think about 9 of the players I recruited had never done it before and we whiped. I had fun.

We tried again and worked harder and we won - everyone was having fun so not a single person left the group, thats what makes DDO fun - overcomming hard challenges. Not grinding out loot 0.1% faster without respect to what concequences your actions may have on the server as a whole.

[Lifeblood]

For the record. I NEVER click LFMs. Ever. (Unless specificly asked to do so after I was invited into a group, and even then I avoid doing so)

. So far as what the LFM said, was irrelevant. .

This IS the issue...YOU thought what the lfm said was irrelevant

you are so concerned with YOU that it's sick..YOU dont care about what other people want
or are trying to do...

if someone joined one of your groups and thought what you said was irrelevant and disregarded your lfm/instructions..YOU would blow a gasket and raise holy hell about it..probably threatening to have them black listed for doing so

[DragoonPenguin]

For the record. I NEVER click LFMs. Ever. (Unless specificly asked to do so after I was invited into a group, and even then I avoid doing so)

I run my own groups.

The only time I join others groups is when specificly requested to do so.

The time I joined such a speed run was such a case. So far as what the LFM said, was irrelevant. I was directly invited.

I wasn't really mad at that particular raid leader.

What I don't like is the overall concept of it, and the fact that multiple raid leaders do it. What one person does, does not concern me.

What the servers defition of a "speedrun" as a whole does.

Think what you want. But this isn't about me. And isn't about 1 specific raid leader.

It is a well intentioned thread brought on simply by my thoughts on the situations and will remain that way. I hardly ever run shroud anyways.

Last one I did, I think about 9 of the players I recruited had never done it before and we whiped. I had fun.

We tried again and worked harder and we won - everyone was having fun so not a single person left the group, thats what makes DDO fun - overcomming hard challenges. Not grinding out loot 0.1% faster without respect to what concequences your actions may have on the server as a whole.

/Minsc

MAKE WAY FORUMS! HERO COMING THROUGH!

[NaturalHazard]

This has been a good pop corn thread thank you shade !!!

[lord_of_rage]

For the record. I NEVER click LFMs. Ever. (Unless specificly asked to do so after I was invited into a group, and even then I avoid doing so)

I run my own groups.

The only time I join others groups is when specificly requested to do so.

The time I joined such a speed run was such a case. So far as what the LFM said, was irrelevant. I was directly invited.

I wasn't really mad at that particular raid leader.

What I don't like is the overall concept of it, and the fact that multiple raid leaders do it. What one person does, does not concern me.

What the servers defition of a "speedrun" as a whole does.

Think what you want. But this isn't about me. And isn't about 1 specific raid leader.

It is a well intentioned thread brought on simply by my thoughts on the situations and will remain that way. I hardly ever run shroud anyways.

Last one I did, I think about 9 of the players I recruited had never done it before and we whiped. I had fun.

We tried again and worked harder and we won - everyone was having fun so not a single person left the group, thats what makes DDO fun - overcomming hard challenges. Not grinding out loot 0.1% faster without respect to what concequences your actions may have on the server as a whole.

What you fail to understand is you have done the exact same thing. You used to do things like this constantly. And if someone failed to follow your instructions you would go nuts.Back when you wanted raid completed as fast as possible. You have gotten abusive and threatened blacklists. Now suddenly you are the savior of the new player. Yeah ok. Your threads are always about you. Then everyone else. Give it a rest Axer.

[MRH]

wow just wow......I would like to thank everyone in the 10 pages for letting this last hour of reading at work go by so quick lol....Great Stuff. Speed run work ftw !

man i need a smoke.

seriously everyone from every server, host your own with your rules and make it clear before clicking on the adventure.

Communication is the key, and ppl will join whatever LFM they want.

[porq]

So all I want to know is...If the lfm was limited to 16-19, would you still apply on a level 20 anyway?


lfm rules are obviously guidelines. ignore comments section, click anyway and win.

[sephiroth1084]

So all I want to know is...If the lfm was limited to 16-19, would you still apply on a level 20 anyway?


lfm rules are obviously guidelines. ignore comments section, click anyway and win.

I wouldn't, no. If it were 19-20 (for something like Shroud), and I was on a 17 I would, though, as that's just the leader forgetting to change the numbers or being ignorant.

[asphodeli]

IMO this is not a well intentioned thread By the Op..this is an I got butt hurt because i didn't read the lfm and someone told me i was bad thread

possibly combined with:
I need a new group of new players to follow me around in my raids and tell me how uber I am. So I'll go to the forums and make myself sound compassionate and caring to trick them into running with me

Hes not reaching out to Khyber hes reaching somewhere else to stroke his ego

Hmm, it seems that appearances...can be...decieving...

Thanks for the clarification.

[MeliCat]

I like speed runs. They add a little more challenge: how fast can you get your time to in what is a sort of coordinated effort.

*real* speed runs. not la-di-dah 'oh yeah i guess i should buff now' runs. or what crazy calls 'speed' runs but i call 'semi-speed' (ie no lootin' vs lootin')

I still consider myself a newer player. There is still a bunch of stuff I haven't done yet and HEAPS of stuff I still don't know/understand. But I *have* managed to learn some stuff, and conquer a few little challenges that I found awful when I first started (eg I can do Coal without falling off 10x). But all the little nerfs they've put in for a bunch of stuff some of my little achievements have been negated (not that I'm complaining about the air jet in Coal mind you ). So if you add those extra little challenges, like speed runs, dualboxing, etc it makes a raid that you know you need to run lots a bit more fun.

So it's nice to add some of these extra little challenges to play - even for newer players. In fact for some players who are naturally better at games than I, probably find speed runs fun straight off - run it once slowly and then hyper speed ever after (if that were possible - I wish).

I really don't think you can say that newer players are penalised in this - as per ANY group it's up to the leader to articulate clearly what is required and have a clue as to how to motivate and organise people, new or otherwise. And it's up to the player to pick and choose their lfm and follow the star if they choose to join someone else's group.


Speed, REAL speed, ftw.

Now back to your regular program of Shade baiting. I like shade - for all his confidence (lol) and subtlety (irony there ROFL) he does actually have a sense of fun and play. But I can see how his style is not going to work for some.

Moar speed runs. MOAR

[Losercrew]

Axer when was the last time before you quit you helped new players? Please provide examples. Remember screenshot or it didnt happen. You are the same person who would fill runs with yourself as the only melee. Why would you do that? Well because of your fragile ego. You couldnt stand to be out killed by someone else.Eury's monk out killing your barb is a great example. Or you had a piece of loot you wanted and you wanted the maximum chance at it. You USE other players as a vehicle for your own greed. Your videos and "dps" challenge were always completely skewed to your very biased point. Your build posts were more to inflate your own ego than to provide a great build.

All your posts lead back to you. YOU accomplished this. YOU did that. YOU established said way of doing something. Do YOU notice a pattern yet? This has nothing to do with new players who YOU have honestly never cared about to begin with. It has to do with YOU. YOU are not happy with how a shroud was ran. So YOU ignored what the raid leader asked. Now YOU are complaining about it. YOU want people to ignore those lfms so it will no longer happen to YOU. But if someone ignored what YOU said when YOU led a raid YOU would have flipped on them. YOU would probobly blacklist them. Judge not lest ye be judged Axer.

the past DNE the present

[lord_of_rage]

the past DNE the present

Nor has it been proven that it doesnt.

[Terebinthia]

Strak you owe me a new keyboard

[Dark_Helmet]

Axer when was the last time before you quit you helped new players? Please provide examples. Remember screenshot or it didnt happen. You are the same person who would fill runs with yourself as the only melee. Why would you do that? Well because of your fragile ego. You couldnt stand to be out killed by someone else.Eury's monk out killing your barb is a great example.

Now now, I do recall a time when Axer used to have training runs. He would show newbies the correct way to do runs and solve Shroud puzzles.

That said, I rarely got into those runs either as I would never pass the questionnaire before the group would fill up.

[Doktr_Strangelove]

Yes I can't help but think that our guild is targeted as 'new player unfriendly' for this one particular raid that is run as a speed listed in this thread so I figured I'd actually post something since I'm rarely on the forums because of this kinda stuff.

I will agree to the fact that early on we all used to farm the shroud in phases to farm ingredients until we had enough to craft which at that point was pure testing and no one knew what 20 completions got you. I did many of these sacking runs up to part 4 with you Axer but the game has changed and so has the amount of knowledge that's available for this or any new quest/raid. There is no need to farm phases in the same fashion we did unless of course you only have 1 or 2 toons and I think it's entirely more rare to find any farming to phase 4 lfms than there used to be. There are so many resources for one to find a recipe or advice on crafting it's unnecessary to farm beyond what is needed unless you make a mistake.

We used to issue out all the necessary buffs and make assignments as we figured out more about the raid and ways to make it more efficient. As time passed and more people have their own resists or buffs the onus is to be more self sufficient. The very first time I had ever heard of zerging through with minimal buffs was by you Axer. I find it utterly ironic that you inadvertently started, in my mind, what turned out to be a trend that you're now posting about being a disservice to new players. I'm not saying that you started speed runs, I have no idea who did but for me I distinctly recall Ellistran saying something about Axer is doing shrouds fast by doing it this way. Then some where down the line people started to do shrouds for speed times and someone posted a record accomplishment which started a cross guild competition. I won't say it was only our guild but rather our group of friends across multiple guilds were able to come together to either tie or own various records at various mod releases which we are all very proud of. Why is that? Because as veteran players we often need certain challenges and in this case it caused us to understand the shroud and work as a team that was well prepared to fill roles and complete tasks with full commitment by all. Other people started posting interesting shroud runs like the one led by Aussie with all bards. Lfms are created with a purpose by the leader which in my opinion should be followed and respected.

I think for the most part people have summed up the points of why people form speed shrouds, why people join them and why people think the idea of speed is ill conceived. I'm going to make a few points that explains our guild perspective on speed shrouds starting with we've run the raid 1000s of times and we're only here for farming purposes; it holds very little enjoyment unless we do something to make it a bit more exciting so it has nothing to do with a power trip. Not only do we notice that things can generally slow down if people pressed the loot all button there will always be a number of people who want to roll for shards, forgot to empty their inventories or sometimes they dc so by reducing the number of times you loot to one instance it should be more apparent that someone isn't there so people can wait. By not looting it forces people to work as a team in a concerted effort to complete each phase quickly; everyone is accountable. By looting at the end it allows everyone the freedom to take their time to trade, adjust their inventory and craft without worrying about it impacting everyone else's time; I see this as a group consideration rather than an accommodation for each individual who joins a raid expecting their needs to be entirely met.

I will say this of Maddmatt70, he leads the majority of our raids quickly and efficiently as possible where sometimes in that role he is short on explanation but heavy in direction sometimes missing some friends in the current raid but with a promise of a spot for next time. Sometimes this doesn't work out or please everyone but hey, he's human and he's doing his best. In the shrouds he runs he not only has a clear lfm description he always has a vocal disclaimer before we begin which ends with 'if you're not cool with that, feel free to drop we'll grab someone else, no big deal'. It boils down to choice and the personal freedom one can have to enjoy the game how they like. Sure we'll say something if you start looting after we've told you no less than 2 times not to do so, it's a basic indication that your desires are greater than the group's but it's extremely unlikely we'll black list you. If a pug sees the lfm and chooses to join and asks why we do it as such we never hesitate to give them a few reasons why and for the most part they enjoy the experience. I find the very idea that newer players feel entitled to demand to have their needs met over vets just as arrogant as vets expecting new players to know everything. I do think that for something like the shroud where many of the vets who were around to have figured it out should be allowed to run it as they please and that newer players could actually try to form a raid and explore it for themselves like we did when we knew nothing. To me speed shrouds are like small historical stamps on how groups did record setting shroud runs and how in achieving them it's left a legacy of how to do one particular raid fast. Having shrouds run in this fashion should force any new player to really think about how to do this raid and what he/she could do to contribute to make it completed faster as a team effort. Until you're ready for that challenge join any other shroud lfm to learn, no hard feelings but don't hold it against us if we want to get it done fast so we can try to complete some other raids before the evening is over.