tank/mage?

[masterblaster-1]

New guy here looking for some advice. I tend to like to play fighter/mage combo's. I like the idea of being able to self buff and have some offensive spells to weaken enemies as they approach, but having the ability to hit in melee and avoid getting hurt. Not too much to ask, eh? Basically I like to play the "spellsword" types. I tend to favor high AC. As such, I have a few questions.

1) What is a good AC here? How high does it need to be to avoid most attacks at level 10? At Level 20?
2) What is a good AB (after base + stat + weapon bonus added together)?
3) Are dex based (weapon finesse) types good here? Can they do enough damage at 20th?
4) What is generaly better; getting high AC, or more DR?

With that in mind, my idea is a dex based type (weapon finesse) build. I tend to like elves, but that isn't set in stone. Right now I'm building a ranger/wizard (currently rgr4/wiz2) with the idea of going rgr12/wiz8 at 20. The plan being two weapon fighting (using an extended sheild spell to give a shield AC bump) along with displacement, fire shield, etc. However, I also like the idea of a fighter/wiz combo for getting the bonus feats (two wpn fighting, weapon spec for extra damage). So once I hit 20, if I restart this build, I might do that.

Any advice, or build plans would be appreciated.

[Calebro]

I would recommend not attempting a difficult build/playstyle like this until you can answer these questions on your own.
You won't enjoy the toon otherwise, because you won't understand it fully.

[wax_on_wax_off]

The short answer is that everything that you want doesn't work very well in DDO. This is because of the MMO variable of the equation that is D&D + MMO = DDO.

The style of character and play that you are looking for suits very well with a pure bard warchanter build (with a greataxe) or a splashed bard virtuoso build (with two weapon fighting). These are very capable, powerful builds that you would be very happy with.

It is possible to make some melee capable arcane builds but they are very specialised and require huge amounts of super rare gear. That said, making a pure wizard and starting with 14 strength (32 point build = 14 str, 8 dex, 16 con, 18 int, 8 wis, 8 cha before racials) is fun and you will be able to melee in one form or another most of the way to level 20. Lately, I've considered making an 18 wizard palemaster, 2 monk for a solo build that would TR straight away at level 20.

[hu-flung-pu]

I would recommend not attempting a difficult build/playstyle like this until you can answer these questions on your own.
You won't enjoy the toon otherwise, because you won't understand it fully.

This is solid advice.

You need to figure out what you're attempting to accomplish.

I will say this, I wouldn't recommend it, with out at least one of fighter or wizard, past life feats. Preferably both. And 32 point builds.

The nature of DDO, is to min/max. Even more so with epic difficulties.

How ever your best bet, is a Warforged Pale Master, with 6 levels of Fighter, 14 Wizard.

16 STR
16 CON
18 INT +all level ups here.

Your casting will be good, and your fighting will be be on par with rogues with aggro.

If you're not too turned off by half-elves and arcane archer/wizard, you could go full Wizard, with Ranger Dilletante plus feats required for many shot or precise shot. Another variation is 2 Ranger/18 Wizard with Barbarian Dilletante. This reduces some of your feat selections early on, and gives you a little more hit points.

[masterblaster-1]

OK, ty for the advice. As to the number questions though, what is the answer there? And if I was to try a fighter/mage build, what would be the build progression/numbers?

[hu-flung-pu]

1) What is a good AC here? How high does it need to be to avoid most attacks at level 10? At Level 20?
2) What is a good AB (after base + stat + weapon bonus added together)?
3) Are dex based (weapon finesse) types good here? Can they do enough damage at 20th?
4) What is generaly better; getting high AC, or more DR?

1) AC is kind of pointless unless you can get it high, just use blur, displacement, and stone skin.

But at level 10 I'd say 35 to avoid most attacks, at 20 with out running epics, at least double, so 70.

2) Attack Bonus, it varies. Depending on what you're attacking, but I would say Mid 20's to be able to hit things on normal. Mid 30's on elite.

3) Dex based finesse types can be good, if you're geared properly. So wounding of puncturing rapiers, and all kinds of different things like improved curse spewing/destruction. Your goal isn't so much as to do damage with them, but soften the targets up more so your fighting can be worthwhile.

4) Ideally, both, but if you have to pick one, go for AC. Since you should be able to cast stone skin which should cover all your DR needs.



And as for build progression, it varies on what your play style will be. If you're going more caster centric, I'd probably go:

1:Wizard
2:Fighter
3:Wizard
4:Wizard
5:Wizard
6:Wizard
7:Wizard
8:Fighter
9:Wizard
10:Wizard
11:Wizard
12:Fighter
13:Fighter
14:Wizard
15:Wizard
16:Wizard
17:Fighter
18:Wizard
19:Wizard
20:Fighter

Or, Just take all your Fighter levels 1-6, and focus on casting after you get most of your combat feats taken care of.

This would let you focus on being melee first, and as your lack of hit points becomes an issue, and your casting skills improve, you'll learn to be more aware of your abilities as a gish.

[masterblaster-1]

TY for the build idea. but I was hoping for more fighter levels, or even a balance. I'd like to have a bit better AB, and use weapon spec/grtr weapon spec to offset low Str (using dex for AC and AB). I'll be disappointed with this game design if dexers are not a viable option here.

[Calebro]

TY for the build idea. but I was hoping for more fighter levels, or even a balance. I'd like to have a bit better AB, and use weapon spec/grtr weapon spec to offset low Str (using dex for AC and AB). I'll be disappointed with this game design if dexers are not a viable option here.

The prepare to be disappointed.
At higher levels the mobs' hp are inflated to the point where DPS is king. Finesse characters simply fall short unless you have a way to offset that damage loss, as with sneak attack for a rogue. Or a well built and geared monk because of his attack speed and extra damage dice through ToD ring effects.

I ran a melee capable 1rogue/2monk/17wiz that was finesse, but he used nothing but status effects for weapons. Vorpals/smiters/paralyzers/banishers/etc. But that only worked because A.) he had spells to fall back on when he needed to DPS and B.) no one expected any melee from him to begin with, so it was a nice little bonus.

It's tough to balance. If you want a fighter icon, you simply can't use finesse and still be effective in most cases. The rare exception will only come with talent and experience, which is why I said I wouldn't recommend it until you could at least answer those questions on your own.

[Therigar]

I'll be disappointed with this game design if dexers are not a viable option here.

It will depend on what your ultimate goals are.

If your goals are to group and/or solo current content on normal, hard and elite then you can build a viable DEX character that will do acceptably well on most content.

If, OTOH, your goals are to group and/or solo epic content then you will be disappointed.

In point of fact, DEX builds make normal content extremely easy to beat and are still very good on hard content. They begin to show signs of weakness on elite content but are still a viable build choice.

From a melee perspective the issues start to show themselves with content in the L14+ range. At this point the mobs have high hit points and many of the arcane/divine types have some form of regeneration. It can start to be tricky doing enough damage to kill a mob before it regenerates.

At one point in DDO's past stat damaging weapons killed by reducing stat scores to zero. DEX based characters were able to overcome the HP issue by using stat damaging weapons. It helped that these were usually found on high crit range rapiers which are also usable as finesse weapons (thus depending on DEX to hit).

Stat damagers still work but no longer kill. Instead they temporarily reduce a mob's ability to fight back. That sometimes is enough to land several criticals and power thru the regeneration problems.

The common solution in current game is to make sure the character has at least a reasonable starting STR and uses STR stat items. A minimum, unmodified, 13 STR to qualify for Power Attack is probably the lowest goal.

AC is a separate issue. Prior to epic you can reach meaningful, self-buffed AC -- enough to solo the majority of soloable content with little fear of being hit. This requires a DEX based character class, a DEX based racial choice and a monk splash for WIS bonuses.

For this reason typical high AC builds are ranger/monks or rogue/monks -- although cleric/monks can replace DEX with WIS and make the AC piece work. A ranger/wizard/monk would fit your build notion more closely and would get you to a high AC.

Be warned, sketching out the high AC idea on paper is a lot different from getting all the needed gear in game. It takes serious commitment and the build's AC won't be very impressive until you assemble the various parts.

To have useful spells through most of the content you really have to get wall of fire. That plus self buffs will get you through most content on normal settings. Higher settings and upper level quests will still present a problem because mobs will save regularly against the damage. Combine that with high HP and you end up needing that melee power.

An alternative is to be almost pure wizard and, situationally, buff then use Tenser's to go into melee mode. DEX focus still works along with monk splash for the high AC but you almost toggle back and forth between melee and arcane modes. I say almost because when you use Tenser's you're in that transformation until the spell runs out. But, you do get to choose....

Most players prefer high HP and DR over AC, particularly because they prefer high STR and damage. DDO doesn't give you enough build points to do both. It is low to moderate STR and ok damage, DR and AC or high STR and damage, DR and HP. For most people DR is optional -- especially if the HP is high enough.

[Bobthesponge]

Try looking at rolling a WF. The self healing and natural immunities can be a great boon especially if you are soloing. I have a 2monk/2 ftr/16 wiz that is great fun and able to solo just about everything soloable. some people use a similar build with rge instead of monk, but if you do that ALWAYS take rge at lvl 1.

since you have a dec 2010 join date, though, you may not have WF unlocked. in that case i STRONGLY recommend that you do NOT multiclass your first build. play a pure class to 20 - or at least until 16 - so that you get an idea of what you can and can not do in DDO. if you go to 20 you can TR and gain the past life feat as well which helps and then check out a different class. i usually run several toons at once and switch between classes depending on what i feel like at the time.

[DrNuegebauer]

How ever your best bet, is a Warforged Pale Master, with 6 levels of Fighter, 14 Wizard.

16 STR
16 CON
18 INT +all level ups here.

Your casting will be good, and your fighting will be be on par with rogues with aggro.

Casting won't be "good"....

and will do less damage than a 'rogue with aggro' (unless said rogue is very badly built!)

[DrNuegebauer]

1) What is a good AC here? How high does it need to be to avoid most attacks at level 10? At Level 20?
2) What is a good AB (after base + stat + weapon bonus added together)?
3) Are dex based (weapon finesse) types good here? Can they do enough damage at 20th?
4) What is generaly better; getting high AC, or more DR?

1) Sadly the answer is very different from 10 to 20. Around 40 at level 10 is meaningful. 80 at 20 can be insignificant (and is very difficult to get to!)

2) a passable attack bonus might be 40-45.

3) Finesse is your enemy with this concept.

4) high DR


Having said that, let me put it to you that it's not impossible to make a decent toon which can melee and cast. However you will face 'group pressure' to define a role for yourself later in the game. Nobody wants a to take an elven fighter who can cast a short displacement on himself but can't do any damage. They want people who can hit hard, be buffed by the arcane and healed by the cleric - this is particularly true in raids.
So if you plan on doing this, you need to bank on being self-sufficient and bringing something 'unique' to a group scenario (ie - nobody wants to waste time healing a sub-par melee; so give them a reason to pick you and be able to take care of yourself!)

The logical choice is a WF with at least 11 levels of wizard (or 12 sorc) - that is to enable you to self heal with the reconstruct spell - it makes a huge difference!
You probably also want a good intimidate skill --> suddenly you have a niche roll: the 'intimitank'. Provided you can hit 60+ intimidate, there's a spot for you in most raids.

I'd shoot for 6 levels of fighter (Kensai I) and use khopesh - gives you extra 'to hit' and damage on crits, and feats.
Splash 2 levels of rogue (so you can open some locks) or 2 levels of monk (more feats) in order to get evasion.
That leaves you 12 levels of wizard/sorc. I'd suggest wizard (more feats) - and if going the rogue route, you can stop at 11 wizard and a 3rd level of rogue for the extra sneak attack damage die.

16 str/ 15 dex/ 18 con/ 12 int/ 6 wis/ 6 chr (level ups in str)

If you don't have WF, I wouldn't bother with the concept!

[Alektronic]

If you have access to favored soul, this class best fits what you are looking for (except it's divine). Plus it's a pure class, so it will be much easier to gear up than any of the multi melee caster tank builds (like Tukaw or Arcane Knight).

Superior Soul: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=soul+survivor

Elf -->Scimitars or Human-->Khopeshes

You'll have high DR from FvS capstone, reasonable AC for midlevels, includes TWF, reasonable offensive casting abilities, strong defensive spell power, healing capable, and strong innate resistances. Two cons (looking at what you asked for) are 1)not arcane type and 2)not a finesse build. If you don't have FvS go cleric, but FvS meshes MUCH better with this concept.

[hu-flung-pu]

Casting won't be "good"....

and will do less damage than a 'rogue with aggro' (unless said rogue is very badly built!)

Similar BAB as a rogue, with fighter feats and enhancements with arcane buffs and with 18th level spell DC's in lich form is good for non epic. Elite will fail less then it lands, and self healing in any form. Spell selection and knowing saves helps.

[Therigar]

Similar BAB as a rogue

This line of thinking is a mistake.

The issue in game is never one of being able to hit the mob. It is always one of being able to do enough damage fast enough.

On most content this is not really an issue if you have the discipline to complete one encounter before gaining the attention of the next set of monsters. That discipline includes healing and taking care of debilitating spell and combat effects such as slow, feeblemind, curse, etc.

There is a clear balance between AC and the rate at which mobs die. If you have a high AC you can kill at a pretty slow rate. All that you do is spend more gaming time to get the task done. From a resource standpoint that can be a big saver if you don't have to make a huge investment in healing.

The problem comes in when you hit the 10 or 20 percent of content where the mobs regenerate or respawn. If you cannot overcome the regen or respawn rate you get stuck in the encounter with no way out. Even though you are hitting the mob every time you just are not doing enough damage to kill the monster fast enough.

Some places this happens, mama dragon in Mired in Kobolds, gnoll shaman in various Vale quests, trolls in Ataraxia....

As for casting abilities. A L16 wizard casts spells like a L16 wizard. That it is a L20 character doesn't change that. So, the spells will be useful on L16 content. If that is what a person likes to run with their L20 character then the casting is "good."

But, if a person plans to run L20 content with their L16 wizard the casting isn't going to be good. It might do because there isn't an alternative, but the liklihood is that melee DPS is going to be relied on a lot more heavily and the spell casting will be limited to buffs and haste with an emergency d-door as required. In fact, about the only thing good about the spell casting will be that it instantly switches mob aggro to the wizard so that he dies sooner rather than later. I guess you could call that good....

[Therigar]

To elaborate on my last point a bit more.

It is easy to make a character that hits all the time. You must also do significant damage.

In a group people are unlikely to want you if you have a deep splash that cuts back on DPS. So fighter 12/wizard 6/monk 2 makes a great build on paper but who wants a L12 fighter in a group when they can get a L20 fighter?

The character may be able to self-buff and solo but it isn't a group friendly build and it is clearly weaker than a L20 pure melee.

The reverse is also true. A wizard 12/fighter 6/rogue 2 looks super on paper. But, if my group needs a wizard why wouldn't it take the L20 wizard (or the wizard 18/rogue 2 if it needed traps done)? Again, the character can probably solo great, but so what?

One issue with characters that solo well is the play style. Soloing often involves managing the encounter and then some maintenance and prep work before moving on to the next one. Groups don't usually work that way. They normally just run off from one encounter to the next only slowing down for "Haste on me!", "Gather for heals," or "Buffs at shrine."

Don't forget dungeon scaling effects when talking about soloing.

So, the character might be able to solo the entire dungeon and still suck as a party member. Players know this. So, they are not going to let you into the group when a full class alternative is available.

[Phidius]

...
The reverse is also true. A wizard 12/fighter 6/rogue 2 looks super on paper. But, if my group needs a wizard why wouldn't it take the L20 wizard (or the wizard 18/rogue 2 if it needed traps done)? Again, the character can probably solo great, but so what?
...

A 12/6/2 shouldn't be applying for a "casting" spot, IMHO. Not that there are many places in the game that requires a casting spot, mind you... I'm drawing a blank on such a quest.

What I find interesting is that the groups that wouldn't take a 12/6/2 are more likely to be the kind of group that needs one the most.

[Therigar]

What I find interesting is that the groups that wouldn't take a 12/6/2 are more likely to be the kind of group that needs one the most.

I can't think of any quest where a 12/6/2 would be needed. Certainly no quest where one of the larger class numbers is "wizard" or "sorcerer."

I'd be interested to know what kind of quest would need that type of build or prefer it to a pure class 20 or 18/2 alternative.

As for needing a caster, any epic quest, Vale portal (although here it isn't a need, more of a tradition, since portals can be done w/o a caster -- but, a pure class L16 is going to be much better than a mix class 12/6/2 at dealing with portal spawns).... So, yeah, there are examples where a caster that can cast and make the spells stick is a definite plus.

Can't think of any where the 12/6/2 would be needed though.

[Calebro]

I can't think of any quest where a 12/6/2 would be needed. Certainly no quest where one of the larger class numbers is "wizard" or "sorcerer."

I'd be interested to know what kind of quest would need that type of build or prefer it to a pure class 20 or 18/2 alternative.

As for needing a caster, any epic quest, Vale portal (although here it isn't a need, more of a tradition, since portals can be done w/o a caster -- but, a pure class L16 is going to be much better than a mix class 12/6/2 at dealing with portal spawns).... So, yeah, there are examples where a caster that can cast and make the spells stick is a definite plus.

Can't think of any where the 12/6/2 would be needed though.

When he said "the groups that wouldn't take a 12/6/2 are more likely to be the kind of group that needs one the most" he didn't mean that they needed the *build* in that group. He mean they probably needed the *player* that has such a build in that group.
There is a distinct difference.
The types to decline a build like that are more likely the types that looks for a standard tank/caster/healer/DPSx3 for their groups. These are the types of people that will decline such a build. These are also the types that would likely benefit the most from having a player willing to make a 12/6/2 battle caster type build, but they never allow it, so they never realize what they may be missing.

[masterblaster-1]

TY for all the great advice. I'm disappointed that a multiclass dexer is not very effective in this game system. I think I might just have to look at either a hybrid wizard that can fight, or the favored soul class.