The melee imperative - is it a myth?

[Sholia]

Is it possible to build a low STR, high CHA/DEX Bard, forgoing TWF in favor ranged combat, and be viable? Most of the builds I've seen, even Spellsingers and Virtuosos, seem to be heavily melee focused, and I'm looking for an alternative to melee. I have a Monk, Rogue and Fighter already so I'm full up on the "in the thick of it" combat. The concept of Bards is appealing and I'd definitely lean towards Spellsinger with a focus on CC, buffs and a bit of healing, but not if melee is a necessity. I'm not interested in optimal or powerhouse builds. I only want to be able to play one that isn't so totally gimped that it's unable to make a useful contribution to a group.

Ranged/caster Bard, yay or nay?

[Alektronic]

Look up any arcane archer bard build. Gather a collection of CC bows (paralyzing/ cursespewing/ smiting/ banishing/ etc...), since ranged dps is gimped. Take IPS if you want to focus more on the bow CC aspect of it. In many ways, ranging can be better CC than casting, as it doesn't rely on sp, hence can be done more frequently. You probably couldn't handle any aggro, but I guess that's what tower shields are for, hehe.

[dkyle]

Caster Bards aren't gimped, they're just kind of boring to design. Multiclassing is off the table, Spellsinger is basically a must, and there are specific feats needed with little variation. So we don't talk about them much.

But something like this might be up your alley:

Human Bard 20

STR 14
CON 15 + 1 racial enh.
DEX 10
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 18 + levelups + 1 racial enh.

Feats:
Toughness
Extend
SF & GSF: Enchantment
Spell Pen & Greater Spell Pen
Empower Healing
Heighten (somewhat better discos) or Maximize (for serious healing)

Enhancements:
* Spellsinger and its prereqs
* maximize your Inspire Courage attack and damage, lasting song III+
* Human CHA and CON, Human Toughness III.

[Kourier]

Even ranged builds have high strength, but I see a lot of arcane bardcher builds. I know Irinis has a lot hidden somewhere... Maybe ask her or read her guide?

[Chai]

In epic quests, only the very best geared builds do not have an issue in the to-hit department on bosses in all cases. A bard is justified being in the group by singing and piking unless your melee are rocking a +65 or better to hit on their own, because even if players are only missing on a 4 but hitting on a 5, enough DPS is made up where people can turn on power attack and hit on a 2 or better to justify your slot in the group. In these cases, any DPS you contribute to the total is icing on the cake.

You can use CC songs even on a modest CHA score and they will work in most cases.

You can main heal with mana, scrolls, and other resources, and be completely justified as well.

[Steveohio]

Bard archer is entirely possible. But not great.

How open to multiclassing are you though? It you choose not to multiclass, prepare to do no visable dps at all.

Anyone saying archery sucks or gimp or doesn't do any damage, obviously have never played one, and thus has no valid opinion on saying what they can/cannot do.

However in order to really do good ranged DPS, you really need to consider multiclassing or at the minumum going half elf (ranger dilantee).

To really maximize ranged DPS, you need 10 feats. You will not get there without multiclassing, and at that point your bardic abilities are dimished. The best attempt I've seen so far is the Arcane Barcher, its a 16/2/2 split and can get all the ranged feats needed.

Give up any notion of spell CC right now, because its just not possible.

[Sholia]

I'm primarily interested in spellcasting and support with ranged as a backup so I don't end up twiddling my thumbs if I'm low on SP. I was just curious how a Bard plays if they haven't invested heavily in melee combat skills, nor ranged skills for that matter. The responses give me a fair idea on how I should proceed though, so I'll give it a whirl and see how it plays out.

Thanks for the help.

[Alektronic]

Caster Bards aren't gimped, they're just kind of boring to design. Multiclassing is off the table, Spellsinger is basically a must, and there are specific feats needed with little variation. So we don't talk about them much.

But something like this might be up your alley:

Human Bard 20

STR 14
CON 15 + 1 racial enh.
DEX 10
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 18 + levelups + 1 racial enh.

Feats:
Toughness
Extend
SF & GSF: Enchantment
Spell Pen & Greater Spell Pen
Empower Healing
Heighten (somewhat better discos) or Maximize (for serious healing)

Enhancements:
* Spellsinger and its prereqs
* maximize your Inspire Courage attack and damage, lasting song III+
* Human CHA and CON, Human Toughness III.

This build is NOT a ranged build. If you want a ranged build, human-->get heavy repeater and rapid reload feats, start with 16 dex, and level ups in charisma (18 starting).

elf-->look up an arcane archer build for bow use. These builds are exceedingly complex, so I would advise looking at a couple to find what you like. On this type of build, you really have to decide whether you want to heavily focus on ranged or spellcasting because ranged bow builds are hard to build.

[Steveohio]

Heavy repeater, forgot about them.
While worse than an AA with a bow, they are far less costly featwise.

They would probably best suit what your trying to do n regards to having a contribution without trying to get into the thick of combat.

[Emili]

Most ranged bards go the repeater route... I'd imagine the cost of AA/SS may be too deep in feat and AP to equal out in compromise. Would be interesting to see a plan...

[wax_on_wax_off]

Bard archer is entirely possible. But not great.

How open to multiclassing are you though? It you choose not to multiclass, prepare to do no visable dps at all.

Anyone saying archery sucks or gimp or doesn't do any damage, obviously have never played one, and thus has no valid opinion on saying what they can/cannot do.

However in order to really do good ranged DPS, you really need to consider multiclassing or at the minumum going half elf (ranger dilantee).

To really maximize ranged DPS, you need 10 feats. You will not get there without multiclassing, and at that point your bardic abilities are dimished. The best attempt I've seen so far is the Arcane Barcher, its a 16/2/2 split and can get all the ranged feats needed.

Give up any notion of spell CC right now, because its just not possible.

This is the way that I would go. Half-elf (ranger, monk or rogue dilettante), 16 bard virtuoso (doesn't need a qualifying feat for the PrE) / 2 and 2 (fighter, ranger or rogue).

Virtuoso CC is some of the best in the game and doesn't mind being splashed. Half-elf has great synergy with healing amp + virtuoso heal song, manyshot + human damage boost + fighter/rogue haste boost and (when compared with elf) a regular constitution (important on a low HP class like Bard).

With the possible advent of a tier 3 for Virtuoso I would consider either building it as an 18 / 2 fighter (ranger dilettante) or be prepared for a reincarnation if that third tier is too juicy to pass up.

Stats are interesting as nothing is really needed beyond enough Dex to qualify for ranged feats (19) and enough to hit epic mobs (19-20 with tomes). Charisma can be mediocre (I'd go 14 base). Strength can be 14 base as it will cap out your ranger dilettante feat no worries. The extra points can be used to make the build trap capable (if splashing rogue) by investing in int and/or putting con up to 16 for extra HP. I would start with 16 dex and put level ups there.

Feats are tricky. Strength Shot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Improved Critical: Ranged are the ranged feats that you must have. Toughness is a must have, at least on a first life, ok, up to 9. Extend is a luxury that is well worth it to save SP. Empower Healing or Maximise is a very good idea to be able to do some healing in a pinch. However, the feats add up.

I think that there is excellent synergy between the bard class and the AA PrE. AA/ranged combat brings much needed burst DPS (through manyshot) and AoE damage (through IPS) to a class that is lacking those 2 very things.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Caster Bards aren't gimped, they're just kind of boring to design. Multiclassing is off the table, Spellsinger is basically a must, and there are specific feats needed with little variation. So we don't talk about them much.

This is wrong. The new and improved Virtuoso PrE is ideal for multiclassing and making niche builds which wouldn't be possible with Warchanter or Spellsinger and haven't really been possible or viable before now.

[Jaid314]

This is wrong. The new and improved Virtuoso PrE is ideal for multiclassing and making niche builds which wouldn't be possible with Warchanter or Spellsinger and haven't really been possible or viable before now.

and the second you multiclass even one level, you lose +2 enchant DC and +2 spell pen, making it *really* hard to be a *caster* bard. now, you could be a CC bard, but no way are you going to come up with something that is better than the bard capstone for a *caster* bard.

[Crystalizer]

range dps is gimped by design, this is why you see most bards meleeing
spellsinger requires feats to make your casting abilities worth it, then you can't go twf without multiclassing and then gimp you spellsinger casting abilities
the most efficient spellsinger for the overall game should be a thf with maxed cha and some decent str
am thinking since a while about that sort of build but am too lazy to level up one
anyway, i played during a while a casting & range bard, but it was before wounding got nerfed
now playing that sort of build is still interesting for example in vale of twilight just to farm kills, but the range ability is useless in epic content with bow or repeater
ddo abandoned dex fighters a long time ago, still your casting abilities and mostly your songs will be welcome by most groups
about casting with bards, they miss mass hold monster and i prefer now wizards for that sort of playstyle

[wax_on_wax_off]

and the second you multiclass even one level, you lose +2 enchant DC and +2 spell pen, making it *really* hard to be a *caster* bard. now, you could be a CC bard, but no way are you going to come up with something that is better than the bard capstone for a *caster* bard.

Absolutely, to be a caster bard you have to be pure. However, the OP wasn't asking how to build a caster bard, he was asking how to build a ranged/CC bard. I expressed my opinion in regards to what the OP was looking for.

range dps is gimped by design,

Here's another opinion. This is wrong. Ranged combat isn't gimped by design. In fact, ranged combat is incredibly powerful by design, however, it's value can't be quantified in DPS over an extended battle as ranged combat is designed as something that you do sometimes to compliment your other abilities. No one can deny that the highest DPS possible is a rogue strength based arcane archer with manyshot active, or the massive DPS numbers possible when utilising Improved Precise Shot to its maximum potential.

In the case of a bard, you heal/CC/buff and then shoot and try to effectively bounce around a couple of different roles. If all your doing is trying to have the best DPS by shooting all the time then you are doing your party a disservice, it needs to be mixed up with CC songs and other affects (with enough resources you could backup/emergency heal fine too). This is possibly a weakness of the build, compared to a kensai/ranger/cleric AA who can seamlessly switch to another important function (melee DPS or healing) when ranged combat isn't appropriate the bard build might not always have something worthwhile to switch to. It might be possible to build in and fund effective healing (with enough heal/mass cure scrolls for epics/raids) or squeeze in power attack to wield a two hander but at base a bard doesn't necessarily bring enough to the table after singing/buffing/fascinating. This isn't necessarily a problem though as many people point out, the static things that a bard brings to a group are always welcome (this build is really the perfect piker, turn on auto attack with a bow and go and get a coffee, pew pew pew).

I really do like this build and I've tossed around the idea for a long time and will probably make it one of my lives if/when I TR my main (possibly the second life as bard isn't the easiest class to level up and will help wizard life).

All this said, the value of an AA Bard will depend on the pilot more than a lot of other builds, it will be a learning curve to figure out the best time to use manyshot and how to get the most out of the CC songs. Figuring out the healing capabilities of such a build will be a challenge as well.

[testing1234]

there is no natural synergy between ranged and bard or casting so no genius build that brilliantly solves the main issue of to few feats and to cast you need so many feats and pure bard.
possible to go arcane archer but thats not possible and beeing a caster bard as its the majority of your feats

lots of good advice given before me, i agree with those that think you should go with a caster bard dabbling 1 or 2 feats into Repeaters

dont think you have the feats to spare to go warchanter so you need consider if spellsinger or virtuoso.

[Steveohio]

Well if you are ok with giving up healing, and spell DCS, to rely on songs for CC, its very viable to do an AA bard.

And Wax on/off is correct. A properly built and played AA is a HUGE dps toon.

Actually just had a rogue STR based AA acrobat2 kensai 1 I tr'd into bard. Only reason for doing so was I felt it would be easier to craft another LS2 bow on a new toon than hunting for an sos i could use at lvl and immediately epic'ing it on 20 as I have the ingrediants already. My next AA build will be the 12monk/6ranger variant, as you can acheive some nice things there.

In previous builds it was a Str based rapier elf kensai assassin.
The AA version it was LR'd to had better dps overall, manyshot + rogue sneak attack presents the best burst dps in the game hands down.

[dkyle]

This build is NOT a ranged build. If you want a ranged build, human-->get heavy repeater and rapid reload feats, start with 16 dex, and level ups in charisma (18 starting).

I took the OP to mean "ranged combat" in the loose sense that includes spell casting, since he didn't include bows or crossbows in his list of priorities, but did include CC.

But spending a feat on Rapid Reload instead of Heighten or Maximize could be reasonable. I certainly wouldn't spend any more than that on Ranged feats if I wanted to maintain good spell-based CC and heals.

This is wrong. The new and improved Virtuoso PrE is ideal for multiclassing and making niche builds which wouldn't be possible with Warchanter or Spellsinger and haven't really been possible or viable before now.

So, you think multiclassed Virtuosos make great Caster Bards? That seems unlikely. Hard to bounce back from at least -4 DCs (3 from capstone, 1 from spellsinger DC song) when you're trying to CC. I remain unconvinced that my statement was wrong in any way.

[amoraenk]

So, you think multiclassed Virtuosos make great Caster Bards? That seems unlikely. Hard to bounce back from at least -4 DCs (3 from capstone, 1 from spellsinger DC song) when you're trying to CC. I remain unconvinced that my statement was wrong in any way.

Not a great CC caster bard but a great CC singer bard. With enthrall, and the song of capering (it's a nice ranged CC song). You can play a good CC without spend a lot of point in charisma and spell casting feats.

[dkyle]

Not a great CC caster bard but a great CC singer bard. With enthrall, and the song of capering (it's a nice ranged CC song). You can play a good CC without spend a lot of point in charisma and spell casting feats.

I'm well aware of non-spell-based CC options, but I said Caster Bard, as did the OP. My statement was not wrong.