Cap AC by level

[justplayingthegame]

With all the skill points wizards get, don't you think they can spare some of them to get higher AC? Oh wait...

And with that I will dismiss the rest of your post, sorry.

seriously ?

you obviously don't play a wiz. for 1 skilz won't improve a wiz's AC , second you think AC is worth having on any build. Once you get out of the harbor and find AC is usless, re post.

[Aaxeyu]

seriously ?

you obviously don't play a wiz. for 1 skilz won't improve a wiz's AC , second you think AC is worth having on any build. Once you get out of the harbor and find AC is usless, re post.

You brought up "skilz" as a way to improve AC, and that is the reason why I do not even care to read the rest of your post.

[RJBsComputer]

I think we can, at least, recognize the spirit of the first post, dealing with the following realities (even if he himself denies at least one of them):

A. Due to the nature of this game, a very high AC can be reached relatively easily.
B. Due to this being a D&D game, a D20 is used for attack rolls.
C. The higher the AC we are dealing with, the lower 20 is, as a percentage.
D. In order not to make maxed AC builds nigh invincible, the DMs have to scale monster to-hit to hit max AC.
E. In order that players without max attack bonus can hit ANYTHING, DMs have to scale monster AC to relatively low to-hit.
F. Without serious sacrifices that go beyond build decisions to simply gimping most everything else, getting within 20 AC of max AC is next to, if not absolutely, impossible.
G. For most players and monsters, therefore, AC is useless, and most players and monsters will hit just each other on a 2.
H. AC, which adds another element to the game, is largely irrelevant.

These are the realities of the brokenness of AC. The trick is to find a solution that is not too hard to implement, and won't cause nerd rage of epic proportions.

+1 rep

I have always wanted someone to say what was broken before we can fix it. this is a very good list. I would like to add my two cents worth:

I. Min/Max'ers have figured out and have been able to grind(the long wait for the cap level going from 16th to 20th) for the "Gold Standard" gear, and what buffs stack.

J. Your average/casual player DOES NOT know what gear to get, where to get it or the time needed to get it on their way to 20th level.

I believe those two points are one of the major problems with AC.

[QuantumFX]

The fact that mobs tohit have to be balanced around max/near max possible AC is the problem. There is so many things ingame that gives AC that the difference between a moderate AC and max AC is far greater than than 20, so the moderate AC will always be useless. While AC automaticly caps at the highest tohit mobs have, the kind of cap the OP suggested would make AC alot more interesting for many kinds of builds, so it would be less "cookie cutter 0 AC" builds and more variation.

The problem is more along the lines of:
1) Some schmuck posts a screenshot of a rediculous AC that he can only keep up for 20 seconds.
2) Devs, seeing a new shiny number, panic and assume that *everyone* can hit that AC for 30+ minutes. They then base their to hits on said schmuck because coding in debuffs or a change of tactics on the mobs part is too hard.

[bryanmeerkat]

The problem is more along the lines of:
1) Some schmuck posts a screenshot of a rediculous AC that he can only keep up for 20 seconds.
2) Devs, seeing a new shiny number, panic and assume that *everyone* can hit that AC for 30+ minutes. They then base their to hits on said schmuck because coding in debuffs or a change of tactics on the mobs part is too hard.

Yep and then the ac drops by 5 and is still insane . Pretty sure the devs know what items they have put in the game and have an idea of what ACs can be found in game

And to the kind person that pointed out that 38( please note I am not playing to it in any way , I have a +1 dodge item because that item has a lot of other useful features on it on a lv 20 clonk was useless . Hi and welcome to my point .Do you not see that if pretty much everyones response to AC is "dont bother" , there is something wrong .

Having your AC at cap would not make you imune to all hits as some people seem to be thinking . Everyone having "max" AC is very different to everyone being able to achieve a workable AC , if they put some dedication into it . People would still need to dedicate a few item slots , or feats , or enhancements into reaching cap .
Your average wizard would need to find 40 AC from somewhere to cap . Thats not going to be easy without biting into either HP , SP or DPS and it likely wouldnt be worth it for the dps hit
A fighter would need to dedicated a few item slots , perhaps concider wearing Armour over a more convenient cloth to achieve a workable AC . This fighter wouldnt do as good dps as one who poured everything into DPS , but it wouldnt be as binary as you can either have an AC or you can do noticable damage .

People seem to think that to be a fighter with a useable AC should require that you dedicate your life to it and not simply put on some armour compared to your wizard friend in his pretty dress .

[Clay]

I would expect that, in the fantasy world of the game, any fighter that did not dedicate his life to his craft, hitting and avoiding getting hit (ac), would not long be in the world.

[bryanmeerkat]

I would expect that, in the fantasy world of the game, any fighter that did not dedicate his life to his craft, hitting and avoiding getting hit (ac), would not long be in the world.

Yep but if he shows any intention of avoiding getting hit except for very rare occasions then he is laughed at and mocked as a Gimp .

[Zenako]

As I have pointed out numerous times before, the whole AC argument is also based on the context of the discussion.

USeful viable AC = reducing incoming hits (ie in the nominal d20 range)

Useful viable AC can be achieved without game breaking gimpiness for pretty much every quest and raid in the game on NORMAL settings.

Useful viable AC can be achieved with some degree of gimpiness for stuff of HARD.

Useful viable AC can be achieved with serious work for stuff on ELITE.

Useful viable AC is perhaps possible for EPIC but may well render that toon more of a bystander.

So the context becomes important. Designing to make quests hard to beat on EPIC ended up making many otherwise viable choices on lower quest settings pointless. Since many veterans with capped characters play mainly EPIC these days, you quite correctly hear that AC is useless .... IN THOSE QUESTS... but that last caveat is often only assumed to be understood and not stated explictedly. Which is why the mantra of AC is pointless then trickles down to the harbor and less experienced players buy into the falacy.

Up thru level 10 or so, you can equip very effective AC without even burning Feats or needing rare items. More people should do so, and perhaps would if they were more aware of the game mechanics.

High AC characters can be built for those levels. I have a level 12 fighter with a 24/7 Beholder level AC of 51. With self buffs, potions, spells (clickies) and boosts, can get over 60 but I seldom ever even bother. No named gear or GS involved, but yes using +5 MFP with Alchemetical boosts.

The concept of an AC cap is actually already in the game in many ways. For all but a handful of quests or EPIC stuff, having an AC above XX still means you get hit 5% of the time, so that is in a very real way an effective AC cap. By putting in a more set limit, it would allow many other changes to the design equations for mobs that would then permit a wider range of melee builds to be effective and add more diversity to the game.

Of course a lot of this was also driven by the design decision made years ago to use an increasing BAB scale instead of a decreasing scale. 20,25,30... vs 20, 15,10... This alone invalidated much of the AC concept that existed in PnP. A high AC toon in PnP might still get hit with the first incoming attack, but would very quickly become almost unhittable, while those who ignored AC would be getting hammered by most incoming attacks. That part of the balance is missing in DDO, and that is also a large part of the root of this whole dilemna.

[zealous]

Of course a lot of this was also driven by the design decision made years ago to use an increasing BAB scale instead of a decreasing scale. 20,25,30... vs 20, 15,10... This alone invalidated much of the AC concept that existed in PnP.

This is wrong. Having a increasing or decreasing scale is functionally the same. It's just a matter of adjusting AB.

A high AC toon in PnP might still get hit with the first incoming attack, but would very quickly become almost unhittable, while those who ignored AC would be getting hammered by most incoming attacks. That part of the balance is missing in DDO, and that is also a large part of the root of this whole dilemna.

Wrong. This is not a issue in DDO due to mobs actually not having increasing/decreasing BAB.

[LuckyLuke2]

Badly, because I'm 100% sure that some1 with more gear info can sqeeze more. I also remember having 45-50 AC at lv17-18. Not that its worth something, just grazzing hits instead of normal attacks. Plus, fighter can get 50AC really fast, I built lv6 fighter with 40 or 43 AC (can't remember) without any buffs.

A lvl 6 fighter with AC 40-43 andwithin the reach of a starting adventurer. Is it possible ? What gear could he wear at lvl 6 and what feats/enhancements/stats could he have invested in ?

a +4 FP (mithral expensive for a starter)
an item of protection +1 (+2 is lvl 7 req)
a +4 TS (mithral expensive for a starter)
Dodge feat
Combat Expertise feat (assuming he started with INT 12 and used a tome)
Alchemical rituals for FP and TS
Stalwart defender PrC
Barkskin pods
AC shipbuffs for large guilds
DEX 19 (assuming a starting DEX of 15 with a +3 item and a +1 dex ship buff)
Fighter armor mastery I
Fighter TS mastery I
Weapon of Parrying
(Stalwart Defender defensive stance)
(Fighter AC boost II)

Total Lasting AC = 10 + 12 (FP) + 8 (TS) + 2 (DEX) + 4 (rituals+dodge+prot) + 1 (PrC) + 3 (Barkskin) + 2 (shipbuffs) +1 (parrying) = 43
Total AC in turtle mode = 43 + 2 (SW defensive stance) + 5 (CE) = 50
Total AC in turtle mode with AC boost = 50 + 3 = 53

Yes ... you can have a quite impressive AC at lvl 6 ... . But you will not be killing a lot of mobs though ... .

[LuckyLuke2]

My level 20 has like 52or 53 AC in regular gear self buffed with wands. Then 5 more from combat expertise if I want to be useless.

But it doesnt matter of course because that AC is almost useless in all the end game content.

The point is your cap does nothing to fix the problem. The fix the to change the way AC works.

My paladin DoS has a fully raid/amrath buffed AC of 66-67 (not in DoS stance or CE on and depending if a caster keeps the raid/party hasted). That is achieved wielding a GS MinII falchion, in PA mode and assuming that she is madstoned (which is often). Whilst she is running epic content, none of her gear is currently upgraded beyond "standard" raid loot.

She can "turtle up" in DoS + CE stance (to an AC of mid'80s) and that is far from being useless imho. Sure, DPS wise you will not contribute a lot but e.g. having all the Orthons/Devils in VoD trying to hit you instead of your raid members will surely be appreciated (and vorpals/banishers/disruptors/ ... will still be a decent S&B solution in most content while tanking). Yes, it is probably more "visual' if I could brag about my 500+ exalted smite to the other raid members, but in most cases, they will not really care about individual performances as long as the job is done (and preventing damage to to the team is part of getting that job done).

[Urjak]

/not signed

Capping AC or anything else per level would be a very very bad idea, because it would remove the creativity and flexibility of character building from the game, which is the main theme of this mmo.

Another idea to fix AC (which is currently broken):
1.) give mobs the same attack chain based on BAB like players have (+0/+0/+5/+10/+10 which i don't think is the case atm) thus increasing the attack range from 1-20 to 1-30. Imo this should not be accompanied by new attack animations, just apply those increased attack modifiers whenever the mob doesn't move during its attacks ( this would also improve tactical play imo)
2.) let mobs use a d30 instead of a d20 for attack-rolls. I know this is not pnp like, but who cares? So many things in this game are not like pnp anymore so why not increase their attack roll to a wider range (i know in epics this has already be done^^)

inplementing both would lead to a +1 to +40 attack range. So lets assume a mob in a lvl 18-20 quest (normal) can hit AC 64 on a 29 last hit in its chain making it 39. On the lower end this would mean this mob would hit AC 26 on a rolled 2 first attack in its chain. Imo this would produce a quite nice range of usefull AC and dont tell me u can't reach AC 26 on any kind of toon without uber-gear^^

[QuantumFX]

Yep and then the ac drops by 5 and is still insane . Pretty sure the devs know what items they have put in the game and have an idea of what ACs can be found in game

The screenshot in question was more along the lines of 20 less AC over the course of a minute.

You overestimate our developers. The devs can't even figure out that they don't have enough enhancements for level 1 monks. And all that's required to figure that out is to open Ron's Character Generator for 30 seconds.

[Lleren]

I think the main problem with the suggested Cap, is simply that it is too low.

I completely agree that the current situation is problematic. I remember seeing a screenshot with 102 or so AC at level 16. Ah its in a link in the below thread's first post. I think I may of seen or heard of even higher as well.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...tside%21%21%21

The basic argument for capping AC, is the same as the argument for capping Jump skill. It makes the job of design and balance much easier to have a solid top point at which to aim for the designers. Currently our Top AC's can and do vary by too much to be useful balancing points.

[bryanmeerkat]

/not signed

Capping AC or anything else per level would be a very very bad idea, because it would remove the creativity and flexibility of character building from the game, which is the main theme of this mmo.

I dont think you could be any more wrong about this .

The creativity choices would be at least quadrupled by implementing this change .

Currently your so called choices are

1) Chuck everything and the kitchen sink into maxing your AC

2) Ignore AC

With a cap that could be easily achieved by those willing to put a little into it you now have the option of choosing how you get your AC and many more options are available after capping your AC as to what you can do with your feats/enhancemenst and gear slots .

[Timmeke123456]

Let's make a thread 'the dev's should cap DPS to LV'...



Got my point? An AC build already pays for getting a high AC with stats/feats/enhancements & fixed gear slots. Feats/enhancements that also could make of your build a dps build.. But nobody would like the dev's to cap dps to lv right?

( But hey, what does the opinion of a guy with nearly 30 posts mean after all ^_^ )

Cheers!

[bryanmeerkat]

Let's make a thread 'the dev's should cap DPS to LV'...



Got my point? An AC build already pays for getting a high AC with stats/feats/enhancements & fixed gear slots. Feats/enhancements that also could make of your build a dps build.. But nobody would like the dev's to cap dps to lv right?

( But hey, what does the opinion of a guy with nearly 30 posts mean after all ^_^ )

Cheers!

Yeah I get your point but there is a reason why nobody complains about DPS and lots of people complain about AC .
The reasons have been explained many times in the thread but as you are 2L2R

The reasons why AC is broken :
he Range of achievable AC is between 5-106
The Range of usable AC is limited to a 20 point spread
To make it so that AC 106 is not 95% immune to melee damage , you must give a monster +87 to hit
Once you give a monster +87 to hit , it hits everyone with AC less than 89 ,95% of the time .

Now as 106 is a silly number that can only be achieved by completly gimping the charachter in pretty much everyway accept AC ,nobody bothers .
So now there is a hypothetical HardCap that is so high that making any sort of AC usable is impossible .
AC is now irrelevant and may well be forgotten about .
So when Jo Fighter asks what type of Armour he should wear , he gets told "Whichever gives you the best abilities as the AC part of the equation is Irrelevant beyond mid-level ."

What is the issue with DPS that you think is comparable to this ?

[LuckyLuke2]

What is the issue with DPS that you think is comparable to this ?

Heavy DPS builds running epics are either THF GA or TWF khopeshes builds. Casters running epics are reduced to CC or buff roles. Healers running epics are reduced to a healbot role.

This argument is as valid as saying that AC is useless. For 2% of the content this argument maybe true (as well as my argument), but that implies that for the other 98% of the content this is not the case.

Your lvl 20 AC 38 clonk might as well ran around naked in the Vale/Amrath or every raid that matters, my lvl 13 AC 39 fvs/monk (ow ... and she's an evoker build, AC is absolutely secondary) is actually quite happy with each mob that misses her. As she does not "need" AC (great selfheal ability) it is indeed useless, but it will still mean that on an average basis 33% of the GH elite mob hits will miss her.

As I mainly play divine casters, this "AC is useless" discussion is quite disturbing since it increases the chance that "glass cannon" builds will run around on most levelling grounds. If that glass cannon build is selfsufficient with Silver Flame healing pods and great healing ampli ... no worries. But I largely prefer to level with DPS builds that have "some" AC (which with some minimal effort is very feasible - look at my post for a lvl 6 AC breakdown and fill it in progressively) than to have min/max builds nag about lack of healing power.

[-Satureon-]

Arbitrary caps are not the solution tho. It takes away from player individuality and creativity--one of DDO's strengths.

Maximally agree.
An example: we already have cap on the jump skill (40), even you can get much more.
I think nobody like that...

[Dendrix]

Capping AC or anything else per level would be a very very bad idea, because it would remove the creativity and flexibility of character building from the game, which is the main theme of this mmo.

It does entirely the opposite.

My making useful AC's achievable you encourage characters to achieve those AC's. This encourages people to wear a variety of armour types.
With useful AC's unachievable for 95% of people you should wear robes (instant change) and not use shields.

If max AC can be achieved without a total focus on it but by focusing in several areas then you encourage a variety of builds as builds will chose different routes to achieve this. If max ac is only achievable by focusing everything on AC then you have one build.

Max AC of 20 + (level*2). +10 for epic.

I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong.