Cap AC by level

[bryanmeerkat]

lv1 20
lv2 22
lv3 24
lv4 26
lv5 28
lv6 30
lv7 32
lv8 34
lv9 36
lv10 38
lv11 40
lv12 41
lv13 42
lv14 43
lv15 44
lv16 45
lv17 46
lv18 47
lv19 48
lv20 50
lv20 entering epic quest 70

Then set trash in level 1 quests to have a +5 to +10 to hit , bosses +10 to +15 ,
build this up through the levels so that generally at "capped ac" trash has between a 50-75% to miss and bosses have between 25-50% to miss.

Why ?

Well with this system it would mean an achievable ac would be possible without making people able to completley out run the AC curve to make them 95% immune to ac .

This would then make having some devotion to ac desirable , without having to put the kitchen sink in to make it feasable

[callforkills]

Many dps characters are able to reach 50 AC easily, so you would have to nerf ac. You'd also have to nerf feats like uncanny dodge and combat expertice, else 50 ac would be to easily accessable, /not signed.

* EDIT: Clerics are going to pike.. extra work for devs for just making the game worse cause you dont have much possibility to stand out as a tank compared to a tank with 100 ac and 70 intimi.

[Memnir]

Ah... no.

[Clay]

I have an idea...

How about we tie AC to the character's stats, gear and buffs... and then add up all the plusses and subtract all the minuses and see what we get?

then, if they have a good ac they get hit less and if the ac is bad then they get hit more?

And the Dev's could possible scale the to-hit of the mobs so that those that sacrifice some DPS to have a high ac can contribute meaningfully by taking less damage.

Nah... that would make too much sense.

just roll a BBN.

[bryanmeerkat]

Many dps characters are able to reach 50 AC easily, so you would have to nerf ac. You'd also have to nerf feats like uncanny dodge and combat expertice, else 50 ac would be to easily accessable, /not signed.

You have epicly missed the point .The point is that you should be able to have a workable AC as a fighter without having to put your entire build concept into it and without having to make your dps into the equivelent of hitting people with an inflatable banana .

[bryanmeerkat]

then, if they have a good ac they get hit less and if the ac is bad then they get hit more?

Because thats not how the system works at the moment einstein .

At the moment it works like this .

You put all your gear stats and build concept into AC , you dont get hit by anything until epic .
You put most of your gear ,stats build anc concept into AC , : you get hit by everything
You put none of your gear , stats , build and concept into aC , : you get hit by everything .

[Vellrad]

You have epicly missed the point .The point is that you should be able to have a workable AC as a fighter without having to put your entire build concept into it and without having to make your dps into the equivelent of hitting people with an inflatable banana .

But even weakly geared wizards can get something like 50AC now.
50 is just to easy to be hit now to be cap. This was his point.

[bryanmeerkat]

But even weakly geared wizards can get something like 50AC now.
50 is just to easy to be hit now to be cap. This was his point.

Can you give me a break down on that ?

[Vellrad]

Can you give me a break down on that ?

10 base
+8 armor
+6 dex
+6 shield
+5 natural
+5 deflection
+5 dodge (mabar/haste/ritual on shield/ritual on armor)
+X blocking (I don't remember how many AC u get while blocking with Skyvault shield)
Its 45+X, +more if you have paladin in team (aura), +5 more if you get epic bracers with blue slot (but it ain't so easy anymore)

[bryanmeerkat]

10 base
+8 armor
+6 dex
+6 shield
+5 natural
+5 deflection
+5 dodge (mabar/haste/ritual on shield/ritual on armor)
+X blocking (I don't remember how many AC u get while blocking with Skyvault shield)
Its 45+X, +more if you have paladin in team (aura), +5 more if you get epic bracers with blue slot (but it ain't so easy anymore)

Ah so your "badly" geared wizard with his +8 ac bracers , who has 22 dex a +5 defelection , +5 natural armour and +5 dodge and a shield can hit it with ease as long as he is blocking . Especially if he picks up a few epic items
Ok my bad .

[Aaxeyu]

I find your suggestion very interesting. While the numbers might need work, the general idea do have merit.

It would also be interesting to read the nay sayers arguments (apart from X Ac is too easy to reach, as that is rather trivial to fix if that's the only negative thing you can point out with the suggestion).

A quick positive for the suggestion is that the devs obviously cannot keep the current AC system in balance, but having a cap would make it very easy for them to keep AC balanced.


I won't /sign yet, but I do think you're on to something good.


EDIT: People are generally afarid of change on these forum, so you can expect alot of negative replies.

[Vellrad]

Ah so your "badly" geared wizard with his +8 ac bracers , who has 22 dex a +5 defelection , +5 natural armour and +5 dodge and a shield can hit it with ease . Especially if he picks up a few epic items
Ok my bad .

Badly, because I'm 100% sure that some1 with more gear info can sqeeze more. I also remember having 45-50 AC at lv17-18. Not that its worth something, just grazzing hits instead of normal attacks. Plus, fighter can get 50AC really fast, I built lv6 fighter with 40 or 43 AC (can't remember) without any buffs.

[Clay]

NO I think I saw what you where doing there , you explained how the system is supposed to work but did it in a way like you where just making it up of the top of your head .

SO then I pointed out why the system you suggested ( which i realise is the system currently in use ) is flawed .

Please try and keep up .

If you think the system I suggested is the system currently in use then I think we are playing different games.

But to carry your idea further... why not just arbitrarily cap out everything in the game by level? Cap out damage modifier, skills, spell points, spell DC... then we don't have to worry about building different things we can just have cookie cutter classes.

[bryanmeerkat]

Badly, because I'm 100% sure that some1 with more gear info can sqeeze more. I also remember having 45-50 AC at lv17-18. Not that its worth something, just grazzing hits instead of normal attacks. Plus, fighter can get 50AC really fast, I built lv6 fighter with 40 or 43 AC (can't remember) without any buffs.

Yeah my argument is that fighters , should be able to build a good AC without completly gimping themselves at the same time people not being able to just max ac and not be hittable .

Obviously a back up to this would be a slight increase of damage from melee mobs too to compensate for this to make it worth having an ac but not lettinig people be immune to melee very easily .

What I would like to see is everyone in melee combat having some intrest in not getting hit as opposed to the current mentality of , no I cant stop myself being hit at all so I wont bother .
Compare that two being able to have the mentality , well if i dedicate one feat , and a couple of my item slots to AC i can stop a fair bit of damage there .
Maybe as a fighter it is worth me wearing Full Plate armour over this piece of cloth I was going to wear ?

[bryanmeerkat]

If you think the system I suggested is the system currently in use then I think we are playing different games.

But to carry your idea further... why not just arbitrarily cap out everything in the game by level? Cap out damage modifier, skills, spell points, spell DC... then we don't have to worry about building different things we can just have cookie cutter classes.

Because none of those items you describe have drastic issues with them .

Spell Points will at some point no matter how many you have , will run out .

Spell DCs are on a lower scale so have less variance .

Damage modifier , regardless of how much/little this is , eventually the mob will die .

Skills , again , on a lower scale where variance can be accounted for in the game .

and the main reason
None of these are inherantly broken .

Newbs are routinely told , dont bother with AC its pointless .
Often I see people say that they should just turn AC into DR , but then what happens to DR , and why not just call it DR ?

[Clay]

while i agree that there is a problem with its current implementation... the idea of arbitrary caps is not much better. It should not be so difficult to calculate the max POSSIBLE AC and make it so that High level mobs only hit that on a 20 and scale it properly from there so that AC can matter again in the entirety of playing level range.

As it is now... I agree: drastic issues.

Arbitrary caps are not the solution tho. It takes away from player individuality and creativity--one of DDO's strengths.

[callforkills]

Max ac fighters do not neccesarily have to be gimped - i have a fighter with 39 ac with no buffs while using greataxe (in CE), he is level 17 and using poo gear. With armor boost +5 and the stance i have atm my ac is 46 with greataxe.

[zealous]

Well with this system it would mean an achievable ac would be possible without making people able to completley out run the AC curve to make them 95% immune to ac .

We kind of already have this, glancing blows and all.

Always get hit for a certain amount with a difficulty dependent frequency. If it's desireable to increase the damage taken this can be done by scaling the damage of glancing blows.

The problem is not really about not getting damaged. It's more about:
A. A change in AC having an impact in ~5% of it's span making it difficult(impossible) to balance to have a broad impact.
Bi. Doesn't protect against massive damage spikes
Bii. Damage other than massive damage spikes isn't much of a threat due to potency of healing
C. There is rarely much of a risk of running out of mana
D. Mana pots

A is pretty much self explanatory. Could be adjusted by doing e.g. as for epics, expanding the range. It's a computer game so pretty much any kind of probability distribution is doable. If they moved mob attacks back to the end of the animation they could even make it so that certain animations have a high chance of landing to create incentive for active play.

B. While you get hit less often with a high AC you can still get hit for as much when you get hit. Since healing is so potent, can fully heal a char at moments notice, damage other than massive spikes are very unlikely to kill you.

C. AC doesn't really protect you from dying, high hp and a competent healer handles that just as well. What it does do is to potentially reduce the need for healing. However, for low levels it's quite easy to either get a worthwhile AC and for latter levels healing is generally quite mana efficient. If you and your party know what you are doing running out of mana is rarer than skipping shrines.

D. You never run out of mana unless you choose to. This reduces the use of AC to potentially reducing the amount of rl/in game resources needed for mana pots.


Making it easier to reach viable ac would be possible by lowering mobs tohit and increasing glancing blow damage. Alternatively you could just scratch ac altogether and lower mob damage since it likely would be functionally the same.

Other alternatives that would make AC have more importance would be to give AC based damage reduction and optionally remove the tohit roll. "But that's not DnD...10 pages...". Agreed.

Or...you could increase frequency of mob attacks...and increase lag
Or...you could increase cooldown on healing spells and/or make them share cooldown...and make the sky fall down on our heads.

[Dandonk]

Arbitrary caps are not the solution tho. It takes away from player individuality and creativity--one of DDO's strengths.

I agree with this very much.

[Aaxeyu]

while i agree that there is a problem with its current implementation... the idea of arbitrary caps is not much better. It should not be so difficult to calculate the max POSSIBLE AC and make it so that High level mobs only hit that on a 20 and scale it properly from there so that AC can matter again in the entirety of playing level range.

The fact that mobs tohit have to be balanced around max/near max possible AC is the problem. There is so many things ingame that gives AC that the difference between a moderate AC and max AC is far greater than than 20, so the moderate AC will always be useless. While AC automaticly caps at the highest tohit mobs have, the kind of cap the OP suggested would make AC alot more interesting for many kinds of builds, so it would be less "cookie cutter 0 AC" builds and more variation.

Arbitrary caps are not the solution tho. It takes away from player individuality and creativity--one of DDO's strengths.

I don't agree with that generalisation.