The Definitive Guide to Barbarians

[sirgog]

IMO you underestimate Human Improved Recovery in tanking situations, especially elite ToD (and to a lesser extent Epic Turigulon and Epic Cojoined Abashai Devastator, although healing SP isn't as tight there).

I'd much rather heal a human barb maintank with 95% of max possible DPS and healing amp gear than heal a dwarf/halforc one. The human can be healed by two party members spamming Heal scrolls on them every cooldown (plus a full Heal spell after Horoth's nastier spells) - allowing most healer SP to be used in emergencies.

The halforc will require three scroll healers to keep up with Horoth's damage output, or healers that drink mana pots.

The only 0 mana pot elite Horoth and Suulo run I've been in had a human barb maintank that wasn't even wearing all the non-epic DPS items - no Bloodstone/Marilith Chain/any other form of Seeker and using a Healing Amp 10/Healing Amp 20/Incite 20% DT instead of a DPS enhancing one; also no ToD sets. I've been in runs with much more geared maintanks that have required heavy mana potion use.


Edit - Half-Elf Monk Dilletante with the Half-Elf Improved Recovery is apparently better still; I'm no ½elf expert having never got further than the 'look at the face of your character' screen on one of them.

[sephiroth1084]

Was this a guide to playing barbarians or a "How to Roll Like Axer" thread?

Not as a pure Barbarian.

However they may be a good choice for 18/2 barb/rogue multiclass build due to their sneak attack bonuses for selecting dilletant Rogue. I will have to research this and update the guide acordingly.

For now I think Halflngs will make the best 18/2 barb/rogue multiclass.. That will be part of the multiclass section later when it's done.

I convinced a guildy to roll a half-elf barbarian recently with the monk dilettante feat. Basically, the character will have the DPS of a human barbarian, -1 feat, but will end up with something like 450% healing amp, which amounts to a barbarian that can be easily healed with, like, CSW wands.

[PopeJual]

- Be Mindful of AOE attacks. Once you have gotten the attention of every caster and in the quest, keep in mind that you will be taking massive damage.. And quite possible only damage that you can sustain, and not any of your other party members. So keep in mind your positioning and try to stay away from your healer and other support members until the dangerous AOE attackers are dealt with.
Example: There's no point in running into your healer looking for a heal if you have 2 casters flame striking, or worse - comet falling your butt. Because your just going to get your healer killed doing that. You have to either endure, or find another place to run and dodge.

- Don't die. If you get in over your head, keep in mind your almost always faster then your enemies. It is perfectly acceptable and smart to maneuver around and dodge your enemies if your health gets low, giving your party members a chance to attack them. Maneuver around near your party, not away from them - smart use of position will let you use the other monsters and even your own party members to block the enemies from reaching you. Do this as long as it takes for your healers to get a chance to find you and heal you.
Always do this.

I see lots of people trying to take Shade/Axer's advice. It's unfortuante when they miss the two handy tips above.

Low levels (5-10):

Level 5 is when the wizards get an extremely important buff for you - haste. Every wizard you group with should spend their entire mana bar hasting you and the party, if they are not, they are doing it wrong (exception: some uber wizards can keep a party hasted while performing other functions too, but not many) This is especially awesome if you can find a wizard with the extend feat. Sorcerers get the haste spell at level6.. But keep in mind a lot of sorcerers mess up and select the wrong spells, so it's often worth checking before hand if they have it. Deny them from your group if they don't.
Other important but not 100% critical like haste:
Heroism - Again wizards should have this. They get 2 level 3 spell slots at level5 so they should be haste and heroism.
Rage - Again wizards get this at level5. They only get 2 slots so it's sometimes hard to get them to load it as heroism is better, but don't let those tricky wizards trick you - if their level 6 they get 3 slots and can fit it in, request that they do so.. They will try to complain and mutter something about fireball, but tell they YOU are their fireball. Luckily potions are available and last a decent amount of time, so that's an option for now. Very cool sorcerers and bards will also have this at around leve8-10.

This section sounds extremely self centered. After all, why would you just want the arcane caster in the group to keep you Raged and Hasted when they could be doing damage to your enemies too?

Unfortunately, DDO doesn't really allow casters to do siginficant damage with their damage spells compared to what a melee type person can do (except for a few siginificant cases that most level 1-8ish Arcane casters don't really understand). Keeping the party Hasted really is the most significant contribution that a caster can make in a decent party - even if it isn't the most entertaining contribution. The paragraph on buffs that I quoted *sounds* like Axer just wants to hog all the glory, but it really is the most effective way to get through quests if you have a couple of decent melee folks in the party.

[NeutronStar]

Welcome, ty for the enlightening thread and hanging on for the final sections namely the Solo Play.

First of all DDO is rather balanced making each Class as useful as the Barbarian Class, said that my favorite Class is Barbarian thanks to the Class's features.

I am a follower of the Hero's roles (Controller, Defender, Leader, & Striker.) set in DnD 4th edition for their simplicity and expressivity so I will apply them henceforward.

Few sentences about pure Barbarians:

Fighters & Paladins are better Defenders, and agree Paladins possess higher saves.

Rogues are superior Scouts.

Rogues shouldn't fail Spot checks.

Disagree.
A 100 AC Figter or Paladin in endgame takes less melee damage than a Barbarian.
Half-Elves are also versatiles.

Disagree heavily, e.g. manage Boosts, etc.

Barbarians conceal play mastery!

Yes.



Also, Axer Package please.

[PolarisNC]

Typos:
your/you're, as in "Dude, that ooze just ate your armor." Or, "As a barbarian, you're the one who should be leading the quest."

allot: This should be two words. People make this mistake a lot.

[Shade]

IMO you underestimate Human Improved Recovery in tanking situations, especially elite ToD (and to a lesser extent Epic Turigulon and Epic Cojoined Abashai Devastator, although healing SP isn't as tight there).

I'd much rather heal a human barb maintank with 95% of max possible DPS and healing amp gear than heal a dwarf/halforc one. The human can be healed by two party members spamming Heal scrolls on them every cooldown (plus a full Heal spell after Horoth's nastier spells) - allowing most healer SP to be used in emergencies.

The halforc will require three scroll healers to keep up with Horoth's damage output, or healers that drink mana pots.

The only 0 mana pot elite Horoth and Suulo run I've been in had a human barb maintank that wasn't even wearing all the non-epic DPS items - no Bloodstone/Marilith Chain/any other form of Seeker and using a Healing Amp 10/Healing Amp 20/Incite 20% DT instead of a DPS enhancing one; also no ToD sets. I've been in runs with much more geared maintanks that have required heavy mana potion use.


Edit - Half-Elf Monk Dilletante with the Half-Elf Improved Recovery is apparently better still; I'm no ½elf expert having never got further than the 'look at the face of your character' screen on one of them.

Hey remember who did it first..

First Elite ToD I did.. Dwaf tank. Pots used in part 3: zero - healers had mana left over. First elite with zero pots far as I know.

That was also the 1st, 2nd or 3rd elite on Khyber as I recall - somewhere around there anyways as I took a while to ensure we had a perfect group, so very little was known or expected.. Just a very well prepared group.

Countless more have been done since then with the same results. Dwarfs can have very good healing amp too. Easier on a human? Yep. Does it make them a better overall tank? Nah.

One big thing Veterans often seem to forget is saves: Dwarven spells works on pretty much every raidboss ability in the game, and I find it helps a ton. In cases where my Warforged died, my Dwarf survived - and there identical builds.

Human has the same bad saves, well cept +2 wisdom. Some low rolls on some big spells and the humans go down, i've seen it countless times in Shroud and everywhere else that huge reflex save or die damage happens.

So good healing amp + great saves = best overall tank imo.

Human can certainly take the title for cheapest to heal tank tho, ultra high healing amp + multiple radiant servant aura.. Well you'd barely need to use mana, let alone scrolls heh.

I don't discount the power of healing amp - all 4 of my Barbarians have and use every available healing amp item in the game.

Just keep in mind these days the ease of acquire them (especialy leviks or guild buff versions) means that most Dwarves can have very excellent healing amp the same as humans can.

Also keep in mind the racial and build advice is intended for new players. I know I won't be persuading you veterans that are set in your ways.

[Shade]

Typos:
your/you're, as in "Dude, that ooze just ate your armor." Or, "As a barbarian, you're the one who should be leading the quest."

allot: This should be two words. People make this mistake a lot.

heh yea I'll work on it. The guide originally had like 100+ spelling mistakes.. Spellcheck ftw.

[Qindark]

Quote:
A 100 AC Figter or Paladin in endgame takes less melee damage than a Barbarian.

Sure they do, since they only exist in spreadsheets and screenshots. In the actual game, Barbarians are the tanks.

They also don't kill anything

[Shade]

Was this a guide to playing barbarians or a "How to Roll Like Axer" thread?

Heh, more Barbs playing like me certainly couldn't be a bad thing could it?

Or have I created countless monsters.. Hmm, something to ponder I guess.

Some of the guide is obvious humourous and meant to be taken lightly.. I might edit out some of that later after the guide is more complete as I know some people will take it too seriously.

[Shade]

This section sounds extremely self centered. After all, why would you just want the arcane caster in the group to keep you Raged and Hasted when they could be doing damage to your enemies too?

Unfortunately, DDO doesn't really allow casters to do siginficant damage with their damage spells compared to what a melee type person can do (except for a few siginificant cases that most level 1-8ish Arcane casters don't really understand). Keeping the party Hasted really is the most significant contribution that a caster can make in a decent party - even if it isn't the most entertaining contribution. The paragraph on buffs that I quoted *sounds* like Axer just wants to hog all the glory, but it really is the most effective way to get through quests if you have a couple of decent melee folks in the party.

Yea it is.. But Barbarians start with 6 or 8 charisma so we should roleplay being self centered egotistical raging blood thirsty maniacs should we not?

heh.. Maybe I'll edit that section to be more .... friendly... mm tommorow maybe.

[PopeJual]

Yea it is.. But Barbarians start with 6 or 8 charisma so we should roleplay being self centered egotistical raging blood thirsty maniacs should we not?

heh.. Maybe I'll edit that section to be more .... friendly... mm tommorow maybe.

Honestly, I wouldn't change a single thing in that section.

Just because it sounds self centered doesn't mean it's incorrect.

[Xyfiel]

Speed
Monks get 5% every 3 levels, so +30% at 18. So a Barb is faster with boost. They also can abundant step, which should put them ahead. My multiclass ninja spy/tempest has +20%, abundant step, and boost I, don't think many builds are outrunning him. I have pulled shroud part II and ran back so fast, I lost the devils aggro, so I don't pull anymore. Anyway, no doubt boosting Barb and Monk with step are tops, with Favored Soul flying around next.

Half Elfs
Basically the same as Human but:
lose the feat, the skill, and can only get 20% healing amp
gain Elf item access(useless later) and dilettante
Rogue for dps types, Paladin for extra saves tanky types, fighter for tactics/strength is best imo as you don't have to put points in something you don't already have
I would put them in the tier with Humans/Halflings but over Elf/Drow as they have the healing amp, +2 str(if fighter dilettante), and +3 con over the squishy Elf/Drow.

[NeutronStar]

Heh, more Barbs playing like me certainly couldn't be a bad thing could it?

It would certainly give all those slacker clerics, favored souls, bards, wizards, and sorcs something to do.

[basketaske]

How badly would I miss oversized TWF as a 18 barb/2 fighter, leveling up and capped if I use TWF from day 1?

[eonfreon]

Axer, I'm at work so I'll just touch on a few things.
First, welcome back!!

But I have a few comments and questions
I think you're underselling the benefit of the +1 Feat of Humans.
Currently, thanks to being stradled with Cleave, Humans ae the only ones that can take both Toughness and Stunning Blow.

PA
Toughness
THF
ITHF
GTHF
IC
Cleave
Stunning Blow

No other race can unless they splash Fighter.
Personally I think Stunning Blow > Toughness.
But that takes away the hp advantage that Dwarves and WF can get, basically all Races that skip on Toughness, and actually puts Humans ahead in the HP department, since all races that want Stunning Blow and wish to stay pure lose out on 22 + roughly 50 = 72 hp.
For a Class that gets ~800 hp fairly easily that's not a big blow, however it's hardly the 40 hp advantage a Dwarf has.

Also the Saves advantage that you talk about is the Dwarf Spell Defense, right?
That's +3 over Humans, right?
Do you really feel that it's that significant?

Dwarves also get no advantage to using the ESoS.
So their dps is no better than the other races and below Wf due to PA enhancements and further below HOrc since they have both the PA enhancements, higher Str, and their two-handed enhancements work on all Two handed weapons.

Plus Humans can even out a stat and actually have more Str and nearly equal Con to a Dwarf, due to Human Adaptability can they not?
So basically, the only advantage I can see for a Dwarf is that he can get +3 to saves.
Is this pretty accurate?

[Shade]

Axer, I'm at work so I'll just touch on a few things.
First, welcome back!!

Thanks.

But I have a few comments and questions
I think you're underselling the benefit of the +1 Feat of Humans.
Currently, thanks to being stradled with Cleave, Humans ae the only ones that can take both Toughness and Stunning Blow.

True enough for a pure Build. But then again, a Dwarf or Warforged without Toughness has the same HP as a human with one plus or minus 2 hitpoints.

Yes it unlocks enhancements to further increase it. But you can't argue that's a plain benefit to the human without giving the Dwarf and Warforged enhanvements that equal the AP cost of said toughness enhancements. So the line is not a clear as you make it.

Also the Saves advantage that you talk about is the Dwarf Spell Defense, right?
That's +3 over Humans, right?
Do you really feel that it's that significant?

Per the guide it's +2 over humans for free, and up to +5 via enhancement.
And yes there's a reason I bolded part of that Pro - It's a massive and very significant defensive benefit that can and often does make the difference between a dead barbarian and a awesome tank.

Humans can attain great saves too, but they need to wear the best stat and saves items to do so, which can become an issue. So this is a big benefit to the dwarves.

Dwarves also get no advantage to using the ESoS.

This guide is intended for new players. Keep in mind the incredibly rarity of said item and how long it takes to get. It is beyond the grasp of most players and really beyond the scope of this guide.

That said, even for players with said sword like myself.. It is NOT the be-al end-all of weapons. In many cases you should still be using a greataxe. See my other thread I just posted on ESoS vs Min2 greataxe for reference.

Plus Humans can even out a stat and actually have more Str and nearly equal Con to a Dwarf, due to Human Adaptability can they not?
So basically, the only advantage I can see for a Dwarf is that he can get +3 to saves.
Is this pretty accurate?

Evening out an odd stat is not an advantage unique to humans. All races can do this throught the Barbarian racial con enhancement and Power rage enhancement.

So sorry that statement is very inaccurate. Dwarves have many advantages and humans do too. It's a very complex topic that can't be boiled down so easily into a few words like that.

I've replied to countless arguements about human vs dwarf vs WF back in the day and I know there can never be 1 concise or clear or correct answer to whats best. Ultimately most players will play the race they want to play, I can just do my best to accurately list the pro's and cons.

Admittedly setting humans a "close second" in terms of ranking and not "tied for first" is personal bias and perhaps should be removed from the guide. I'll think on it.

[eonfreon]

Very good points.

Thanks.

Especially about the benefit of saving AP on Toughness enhancements.

[Shade]

How badly would I miss oversized TWF as a 18 barb/2 fighter, leveling up and capped if I use TWF from day 1?

Not at all.

Oversized TWF is not a recommended feat for Barbarians at all. Our massive strength can more then make up the penalty to hit for using large weapons, so no worries.

[Memnir]

Simply excellent.

[Aaxeyu]

Low levels (5-10):
Level 5 is when the wizards get an extremely important buff for you - haste. Every wizard you group with should spend their entire mana bar hasting you and the party, if they are not, they are doing it wrong (exception: some uber wizards can keep a party hasted while performing other functions too, but not many) This is especially awesome if you can find a wizard with the extend feat.

Fireball is much more useful than haste at that level. A wizard that wastes SP on haste is doing it wrong. Get potions!

They will try to complain and mutter something about fireball, but tell they YOU are their fireball.

Fireball has waaay more potential than a barb at low/mid levels. It doesn't even compare.