The Definitive Guide to Barbarians

[Thrudh]

"When I first read Thrudh saying Shade didn't want to accept Stunning Blow at that time, I thought to myself: "Okay, maybe he has a point and Shade's views have changed since then..." But no. He was right the entire time. So your continuously bringing up that point is making you look bad, not him.

No, he lied. He was against it even when it did auto-crit.. He couldn't stand to give up 2 or 4 points of STR to get auto-crit against trash. He argued against it for a year... but now he says he was only against it in beta. That's a lie.

We're all wrong at times... He never ever admits it.

His tests for barbarians are ALWAYS best case for barbarians, worst case for other classes... Barbarians who have lots of hp vs Rogues with crappy spot and reflex saves.

DPS test? 100% fort portal, so rogues sneak attack, paladins smites, etc have no effect.

He's deceptive.

[sephiroth1084]

"The cooldown is also 30 seconds so this can be used continuously until all charges are depleted."

-DDOWiki

So, technically, he CAN run around for exactly 3 minutes with the buff on continuously between shrines if he wanted to.

I'm aware of that. MY point was that there aren't many places I can think of, unless you are going absolutely full-speed ahead, that 3 minutes of a buff will last you for all the traps in a dungeon. And, again, if you're charging that quickly, it's really doubtful that you don't already know where the traps are. Hence, you can't be figuring in Improved Uncanny Dodge for your Reflex save when hitting unknown traps. Doing otherwise is unrealistic.

[Itachi83]

How in the world are you counting IUD for 3 minutes against unknown traps? What quest are you going to do with all the traps within 3 minutes of the start or a shrine? That's ridiculous and you know it, which is why you glossed over the point.

Also, what are you including for your basic gear there? The only relevant values are:
You: +6 base, +6 vs. traps, +2 Dex = +14
vs.
Him: +12 base, +3 Dex = +15.

If you know about the trap, you have a higher Reflex, but if you know about the trap, the whole scouting argument is irrelevant, and the monk will always be taking equal to, or less damage than you do after level 10. While leveling you will have more DR that applies vs. some traps, until level 20, when the monk jumps in the lead.

Convenient that you ignored all the other points I made.

Just because you know about the trap does not negate a "scouting" situation. If you come to an obvious trap location, which is generally all of them lol, then UD can effectively be put into the equation.
So, NO, it is not irrelevant.
It depends on the situation.

I really don't think any class is best at "scouting". Really depends on the player, and whose advice he took on his build.

Don't remember anything about SB when the level cap was 12, believe my main was a wizzy then.

But that entire argument is ad hominem and contributes nothing to the conversation. Also talking about another person as if can not read the sentence is extremely rude.

[Thrudh]

If he's not and no one has run the quest before, you might get hit by the trap. And if your following any of my guides and not running over level elite quests -your not going to die.

But you WILL get hurt and require healing... Best case for a barbarian, you make a save and take 50% damage... Best case for a rogue, the rogue spots it before he gets hit by it, ZERO damage... Second best case for a rogue, rogue walks into it, makes the save and takes ZERO damage.

Why is this so hard to understand?

[sephiroth1084]

Just because you know about the trap does not negate a "scouting" situation. If you come to an obvious trap location, which is generally all of them lol, then UD can effectively be put into the equation.
So, NO, it is not irrelevant.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that trap locations are all, or are mostly, obvious? If that were the case, no one would be stumbling into traps, would they?

Aside from that, I've defined what I consider to be scouting, mostly by what it appears to be for the majority of people (not just here, but in the broader world). If you know about the trap, maybe you still need to see what its actual layout is, fine. Then IUD comes into play, as do speed and HP. That still doesn't suddenly make barbarians the best character to investigate in all situations.

It depends on the situation.

I really don't think any class is best at "scouting". Really depends on the player, and whose advice he took on his build.

And that's been my entire point, which is antithetical to Axer's. Axer put forth the bold statement that barbarians are the best scouts, and has argued to support that point, however poorly, and in spite of facts and raw data.

If he had said that barbarians often make good scouts, there would have been much less of an argument. If he had said that, in some situations, the barbarian should be the one out front even when some other character may seem like the more likely candidate, then there would have been less argument, and probably a more productive dialogue about what those situations are. Instead, he said, and continues to say, that barbarians are the best, which they aren't, if only because they aren't in every case.

It would be incredibly difficult to pin down any class as being the best at any particular role in DDO, even when ignoring multiclassing, as the game is simply too complex for any single type of character to pull out ahead of everyone else on all occasions.

But that entire argument is ad hominem and contributes nothing to the conversation.

I agree.

[Itachi83]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that trap locations are all, or are mostly, obvious? If that were the case, no one would be stumbling into traps, would they?

Aside from that, I've defined what I consider to be scouting, mostly by what it appears to be for the majority of people (not just here, but in the broader world). If you know about the trap, maybe you still need to see what its actual layout is, fine. Then IUD comes into play, as do speed and HP. That still doesn't suddenly make barbarians the best character to investigate in all situations.
And that's been my entire point, which is antithetical to Axer's. Axer put forth the bold statement that barbarians are the best scouts, and has argued to support that point, however poorly, and in spite of facts and raw data.

I would have to say that they really don't have to be better than every class at ALL situations to be the best. They really only have to be the best in the majority of the situations.

And my definition of "scouting", which I believe we have a fundamental disagreement on, is not necessarily anything to do with traps.

Perhaps even the best "scouter" is only the best in the worst situations, or the situations that are generally worse for all. In this case, it has nothing to do with class, like I indicated above. Sure both the rogue and the barb have the advantages, which come out relatively equal in most cases. I think Axer says the extreme because he wants to prepare his readers for the worst case scenarios, so that they are better barbarians in the end.

"But that entire argument is ad hominem and contributes nothing to the conversation." <-- directed toward thrudh.

Everyone here wants the same thing. Correct?
Make newer players, better players.

It would be incredibly difficult to pin down any class as being the best at any particular role in DDO, even when ignoring multiclassing, as the game is simply too complex for any single type of character to pull out ahead of everyone else on all occasions.

This.
I feel the real reason is because they are truly equals, in terms of abilities regarding scouting. But would you agree that it is really the player that makes the scout?

[sephiroth1084]

I would have to say that they really don't have to be better than every class at ALL situations to be the best. They really only have to be the best in the majority of the situations.

I think it's too difficult to determine a majority of situations in DDO. If nothing else, the ability for several other characters to SPOT traps and hidden monsters before running into them means that better options exist. Not running into danger is necessarily better for the group than running into it. There's really no way to avoid that one: spotting a trap before you run into it results in less damage than running into it. Not taking damage from a trap, or not alerting monsters, results in less damage as well.

Less damage = less healing, less rebuffing and less mana being spent in general. It also often results in getting through quests faster.

And my definition of "scouting", which I believe we have a fundamental disagreement on, is not necessarily anything to do with traps.

A scout is someone who moves ahead of a group, performing reconnaissance, whether that means finding traps, ambushes, sneaky monsters or simply pointing out that there are two casters in the next room. The important feature, in this discussion, is that the scout is the character moving ahead of the party. In a quest with traps, the scout is going to be either spotting them or wandering into them first.

As Thrudh pointed out, a barbarian who is scouting will necessarily require healing, whereas a character with Evasion may not. That is an important distinction when many healers are constantly complaining about how resource intensive many characters, especially barbarians can be. And barbarians require quite a lot of healing to begin with.

Perhaps even the best "scouter" is only the best in the worst situations, or the situations that are generally worse for all. In this case, it has nothing to do with class, like I indicated above. Sure both the rogue and the barb have the advantages, which come out relatively equal in most cases. I think Axer says the extreme because he wants to prepare his readers for the worst case scenarios, so that they are better barbarians in the end.


Everyone here wants the same thing. Correct?
Make newer players, better players.

I do want better players. Better players aren't the barbarians running ahead of the party, springing traps, taking lots of damage and shouting for buffs and hjeals. Better characters assess their role in the group, and adapt from one party, one quest, to the next.

I feel the real reason is because they are truly equals, in terms of abilities regarding scouting. But would you agree that it is really the player that makes the scout?

They aren't equal. There is a difference between being equally good at something, and being the best choice in different situations and attaining a sort of equality in degree of use. It is the player who makes any character, in most cases, but you can play to your abilities or away from them.

Even aside from his obvious bias toward barbarians, Axer also really likes to be the center of attention. That's pretty indisputable if you've ever even seen one of his LFMs, let alone grouped with him, and it comes through pretty clearly here.

[quickgrif]

I think it's too difficult to determine a majority of situations in DDO. If nothing else, the ability for several other characters to SPOT traps and hidden monsters before running into them means that better options exist. Not running into danger is necessarily better for the group than running into it. There's really no way to avoid that one: spotting a trap before you run into it results in less damage than running into it. Not taking damage from a trap, or not alerting monsters, results in less damage as well.

Less damage = less healing, less rebuffing and less mana being spent in general. It also often results in getting through quests faster.

A scout is someone who moves ahead of a group, performing reconnaissance, whether that means finding traps, ambushes, sneaky monsters or simply pointing out that there are two casters in the next room. The important feature, in this discussion, is that the scout is the character moving ahead of the party. In a quest with traps, the scout is going to be either spotting them or wandering into them first.

As Thrudh pointed out, a barbarian who is scouting will necessarily require healing, whereas a character with Evasion may not. That is an important distinction when many healers are constantly complaining about how resource intensive many characters, especially barbarians can be. And barbarians require quite a lot of healing to begin with.
I do want better players. Better players aren't the barbarians running ahead of the party, springing traps, taking lots of damage and shouting for buffs and hjeals. Better characters assess their role in the group, and adapt from one party, one quest, to the next.

They aren't equal. There is a difference between being equally good at something, and being the best choice in different situations and attaining a sort of equality in degree of use. It is the player who makes any character, in most cases, but you can play to your abilities or away from them.

Even aside from his obvious bias toward barbarians, Axer also really likes to be the center of attention. That's pretty indisputable if you've ever even seen one of his LFMs, let alone grouped with him, and it comes through pretty clearly here.

I don't know about the center of attention but he seems not to be the one taking up the lime light right now. And while his personality quirks seem to irritate the two of you his barb builds are solid.

If nothing else its good to see him back for the reason he brings the barb forum some activity.

This thread was just brought to mind while I was running a delaras with a group who kept using a dex based monk to spring the traps... He died several times failing his role for evasion and not having the hit points to absorb the damage. So for my part there is a valid point about better someone who has the hit points who can survive to someone who has evasion but can still die on a failed roll.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't know about the center of attention but he seems not to be the one taking up the lime light right now. And while his personality quirks seem to irritate the two of you his barb builds are solid.

Zing! Well, my comment in this regard was more about grouping with him than his forum style. Not especially relevant here, other than in how it figures into assigning barbarians the sorts of roles he has.

If nothing else its good to see him back for the reason he brings the barb forum some activity.

I agree, and not just about the barbarian forums and builds. He digs up a lot of info on epics and new quests, puts out some impressive videos and gets people thinking about stuff, even if it is as a reaction against something he's said. I don't begrudge his returning, and in fact sent him a welcome back /tell when I saw he was on, and joined him for a few raids. Still, it's important to be aware of the quirks of others, particularly when they are as...strong...as his.

I get *****y about stuff sometimes. Loot particularly. And stupidity. Sometimes I need to check myself, or get chewed out. I try to recognize this, and admit when I'm wrong. Everyone has their own thing. Axer's is being the center of attention (at least one of his things, anyway).

This thread was just brought to mind while I was running a delaras with a group who kept using a dex based monk to spring the traps... He died several times failing his role for evasion and not having the hit points to absorb the damage. So for my part there is a valid point about better someone who has the hit points who can survive to someone who has evasion but can still die on a failed roll.

And if you'd had a monk who had good enough saves to beat the traps, or enough HP, he'd have been the better choice, but he didn't and therefore wasn't. In that case, the barbarian probably makes a better point man. Again, my assertion throughout this entire argument has been that, while barbarians can be the best scouts for a particular group in some situations, they are not the best in all, and not the best often enough that calling them the best is misleading.

[stoolcannon]

I can tell you one thing barbarians are best at and that's zerging. Brainless, full tilt zerging until everything in the dungeon is dead or they are. If traps aren't gong off in my wake and we aren't at red alert then I must be afk.

I am a notorious zerger in a guild full of zergers. I just completed my TR and I don't think I got a single caster buff or haste until about level 15 because I was already long gone by the time the buffing started.

I just love drinking a haste pot and sprint boosting off at 100 miles per hour and hitting everything in front of me with a massive axe.

[Thrudh]

I don't know about the center of attention but he seems not to be the one taking up the lime light right now. And while his personality quirks seem to irritate the two of you his barb builds are solid.

Okay, good point...

My problem with many posters on these boards are those who talk in absolutes, who never see any point of view but their own as valid.

I remember better the arguments about Stunning Blow in the past... I think now, the level cap was 14, and barbarians could get Crit Rage II at 14... which was an extremely nice DPS multiplier...

I, and others, would acknowledge the power of Crit Rage II, and say it was likely the better choice... but then we would point that a case could be made for splashing fighter for Haste Boost, Stunning blow feat, etc. We'd talk about our experience using Stunning Blow, and how it worked really well as a defensive measure, and how auto-crit on every shot on the occasional bad guy had to average out fairly well with getting 17-20 crit range on every bad guy instead of 18-20.

Shade (and some others) would NEVER acknowledge the pros of splashing and Stunning Blow... He (and others) loved to say that any build that wasn't pure was gimp. I never asked him to say our builds were better, just to admit that it wasn't an insane trade-off, and that they weren't total gimps, that there were possible viable barbarian builds besides his own.

That's what I can't stand. And of course, it drives me crazy that he's now a big proponent of Stunning Blow, and even claims he always was...

But I need to stop bringing my personal baggage with him to the boards --> Feel free to quote only this part of my message with snarky replies

Now, that I reflect on it, Shade has gotten better... At least his race and multi-class section actually has pros and cons, instead of a blanket statement on which race is "best" and which build is "best".

[Chad28]

I can tell you one thing barbarians are best at and that's zerging. Brainless, full tilt zerging until everything in the dungeon is dead or they are. If traps aren't gong off in my wake and we aren't at red alert then I must be afk.

I am a notorious zerger in a guild full of zergers. I just completed my TR and I don't think I got a single caster buff or haste until about level 15 because I was already long gone by the time the buffing started.

I just love drinking a haste pot and sprint boosting off at 100 miles per hour and hitting everything in front of me with a massive axe.

If there were ever a class fit for zerging, I think Barbs would be that class. Or one of them. I personally like Barbs the best, but I don't really zerg on purpose. Sometimes I get into a system of going to the first enemy I see, killing it, and moving on to the next up the path, but I wouldn't call myself a zerger.

One of the things I like about DDO, as opposed to the first MMO I played, is that it is possible to clear out most quest area. Enemies don't respawn, so there's less reason to be constantly moving.

[ddobard1]

Looking to the Guide's solo notes.
Even at low levels a Hero Barbarian faces upsets, namely Hold and Dancing spells.
Despite the Axer Package a Barbarian's Hero needs extra resources. I was guessing you would place emphasis in the intensive use of Skills.
It's becoming an useful Guide.

[Shade]

Looking to the Guide's solo notes.
Even at low levels a Hero Barbarian faces upsets, namely Hold and Dancing spells.
Despite the Axer Package a Barbarian's Hero needs extra resources. I was guessing you would place emphasis in the intensive use of Skills.
It's becoming an useful Guide.

I generally avoid these by using a Scarab of protection (SR20) . Which have no min level and are extremely effective at stopping low level caster spells.

Tho I find dance spells very uncommon, I mean mainly bard monsters use those right? and there also "touch range" and anything in "touch range will tend to die in 1-2 hits so they rarely should get a chance.
Even if they die - monsters do have a sort of concentraiton check - not like we do, but you can stop them.. If you hit one for over 40% of his health, he will flail and generally fail to cast, which makes big heavy hitting two handed weapons ideal.

I'll add it to the solo notes.

Beyond that, as I said - understanding enemies AI and tactics is key. Some casters will actually only melee you if you stay right next to them, and make no attemp at hold spells. Your distance always plays a factor in what spell they will cast next, or if they will just melee you.

Can't think of where active skills would come into play in soloing much. Passive skills like jump, balance and spot are ofcourse just as important as ever.

[Chad28]

Where do the scarabs drop the most? I might want to stock up on those.

[Shade]

Where do the scarabs drop the most? I might want to stock up on those.

The auction house heh.

They just seem to be an extremely rare drop in any level10-17 quest.

http://itemwiki.cubicleninja.com/Ite...px?itemID=1098

[ddobard1]

I always take the Skill Bluff for solo purposes, don't mentioning Hide & Move Silently.

[kernal42]

I can tell you one thing barbarians are best at and that's zerging. Brainless, full tilt zerging until everything in the dungeon is dead or they are. If traps aren't gong off in my wake and we aren't at red alert then I must be afk.

I am a notorious zerger in a guild full of zergers. I just completed my TR and I don't think I got a single caster buff or haste until about level 15 because I was already long gone by the time the buffing started.

I just love drinking a haste pot and sprint boosting off at 100 miles per hour and hitting everything in front of me with a massive axe.

I love zerging on my WF arcane; collect half the quest, drop an fwall, and move on. But saying barbs are even better at zerging really makes me want to roll one up....

[ddobard1]

Kernal42 this is a guide for Barbarians about Barbarians in the Barbarian Forum.
Please do not lose touch with reality...

[ddobard1]

By reality I mean DDO´s Spells vs DDO's Melee & Ranged options...