The Petition to Fix the Auction House

[Aaxeyu]

the barter system is far superior to plat

It really isn't. It's inefficent and bothersome. Why do you think money exists in the first place?

Imagine this, a new player levels rather quickly and does his first shroud and gets 2 large devil scales, lucky day indeed. Now he can sell them for a few million plat, off the AH to avoid what you deem too high a cut. Or he can try to get something worth far more, when some player with a massive stockpile of gear we save, not so avoid the AH fee and sell, but because I have no idea if I want to save it for an alt, or maybe give it away for free to a friend or new player I fancy.

Now said player either has some plat, that's probably not going to last long, easy come easy go, or he can walk away with several less rare items of immediate value that he can pass on to alts that help him right now. Bam barter system 1, plat 0. Just saying. Also again, what Junts is saying makes way more sense than what you are saying

Are you really this clueless on the issue, or are you just trolling?
I can try to explain, but I don't want to waste my time.

[Kominalito]

alot of armchair economic theorists here. i cant believe what i'm reading.

so NOT signed.

if you dont know what the plat sink is about, then you need to stop posting in this thread.

[samthedagger]

if you dont know what the plat sink is about, then you need to stop posting in this thread.

^^this

And stop trying to bring real-life economics into it. First of all, supply-side economics fails in real-life too. Second of all, game economies are based on spontaneous generation of wealth, not the trade of labor and raw goods for manufactured goods.

[Aaxeyu]

if you dont know what the plat sink is about, then you need to stop posting in this thread.

It's not about whether there should be plat sinks in game or not. It's that the AH tax is an incredibly stupid plat sink.

For example, if you got level ups from jumping instead of experience, I would not think leveling up is a bad idea just because I think that leveling up from jumping is stupid.

DDOs economy is broken, removing the silly high AH cut is an important step to take if they want to fix it.
If it wasn't broken, there would be no need to use LDS/FRDS as currency for example.

[Aaxeyu]

And stop trying to bring real-life economics into it. First of all, supply-side economics fails in real-life too. Second of all, game economies are based on spontaneous generation of wealth, not the trade of labor and raw goods for manufactured goods.

Basic real-life economic principles applies just fine.

[KillEveryone]

There are other money sinks besides the AH. So, that means, that its not the only way "money vanishes". I would argue that its not even the most significant money sink. I postulate that more money is "lost" in transactions of buying pots, scrolls, and other vendor goods than the AH generates. A stack of 100 pots is about 8000 plat. I can go through 100 pots pretty **** fast.

There is no justifiable reason the AH should have a 30% fee. Just because a player feels another player shouldn't use the AH is not a justifiable reason, and is absurdly conceited.

A haggle bard will make that stack cheaper.

Many players have a haggle bard. Some of those players have a very high haggle while others are happy with a lower haggle. My bard hits 84.

I'll check out what my prices are after I get home from work and update this.

I know I'm not paying 8000 plat for a stack of pots. I think it is a bit over 5k plat for a stack of haste pots. My characters may suck them down like candy but I can still make plat faster than I spend it if I set my mind to it. Right now, I'll earn some plat, play my other characters till my coin purse is empty, make more plat and repeat.

I can hit 250k plat from running Shroud 1 to 4, 4 times. Do that 8 times and I hit 500k. Do this on my two capped characters and I can hit 1mil. Do a quest that has better loot and I can make much more. It is really easy to make plat.

[Thuriaz]

I see! we can remove the auction fees and let people trade freely! That way when I see a bloodstone listed 20k below average, I can buy it and list it again for the usual price ^^


/not signed

+1 And a big reason why the economy in most games is sky high for even the most basic gear. Yeah DDO's economy can be a little higher than we like for some reason, but seriously, from level 1 to level 4 assuming even one of those levels is in the harbor your going to get, and be able to sell, enough collectables to fun your next two or three levels easily, maybe further than that. Remove the 30% fee and instantly the cost of any item listed on the auction house will go up 30 - 40%.

[fuzzy1guy]

1: 30% is nothing. NOTHING... yeah i said it.. NOTHING! I personally would change it to 50%.

2: ppl don't read the compendium anyway.. you'll figure out the ah cut after your first sale. unless you're real bad at math. In which case 30% won't mean anything anyway.

3: More dev work cuz u don't wanna type a word? That's just lazy. search for what you want.

4&5: That's just silly.



6: Ok this one does tick me off.. It was sold to me as UNLIMITED auction postings.. And 50 sure isnt unlimited. It still says unlimited on all the pages trying to get people to pay for ddo... And it's NOT unlimited.

As for the f2p limit of one auction.... Sucks to be them.. Pony up some cash to pay ddo and get your 50 auctions or suck it up. FREE is worth what you're paying for it.

[Aashrym]

It really isn't. It's inefficent and bothersome. Why do you think money exists in the first place?

Because it represents a value on something that has value. Since plat is flooded in this game because we need more money sinks to give it value back the base currency value has gone down, similar to a lot of currencies in the real world.


The value of a lot of items used in bartering has not gone down. Some of them have much much more value than plat. If someone offered to buy a great pull off me I would never take it seriously. I barter a lot in game.


I don't need plat, I do sell on the AH (usually underpricing for a quick return depending on the item), and I vendor most items. Vendor trash makes me a lot of plat that I generally have no significant use for. So I have that covered.


Adding more plat into the economy by removing a sink can do nothing but decrease the value of the currency more, not less. That's why bartering is better right now. Items have value plat does not.


We need more meaningful sinks, not less. Once plat has some value again then it might be time to think about adjusting some of the sinks.


For the record, it's not the seller who creates the price. Neither is it the buyer. It's the buyer's perception of the value and what he thinks is a deal compared to the seller's perception of the value and what the seller considers acceptable on the item. It takes both parties to enable the transaction. The seller might refuse to lower a price but that doesn't mean there will be a market for it at that price. This is still irrelevant to the need for more money sinks.


As for the point on AH limits support the game and you get benefits. Barter with the party, trade channel, forums. The options are there.

[morticianjohn]

I am not sure why there are always people disagree with suggestions made here that use the reasoning "that is not how the game is". Of course not! This is a suggestion forum for improving the game and just because the AH seems fine to you doesn't mean it can't get better. The OP has some good suggestions that deserve more consideration than many of you are willing to give.

How can you say that giving us better search options is bad and your reasoning is that we are lucky they have improved it at all?

Many people said th AH was fine before the change however now that the change is in place we can see that the AH wasn't just fine and this was a huge improvement. If you think this is the best it can be then fine but if you think it can be improved then don't just ignore potential and these suggestions have real potential.

[Aaxeyu]

Because it represents a value on something that has value. Since plat is flooded in this game because we need more money sinks to give it value back the base currency value has gone down, similar to a lot of currencies in the real world.


The value of a lot of items used in bartering has not gone down. Some of them have much much more value than plat. If someone offered to buy a great pull off me I would never take it seriously. I barter a lot in game.


I don't need plat, I do sell on the AH (usually underpricing for a quick return depending on the item), and I vendor most items. Vendor trash makes me a lot of plat that I generally have no significant use for. So I have that covered.


Adding more plat into the economy by removing a sink can do nothing but decrease the value of the currency more, not less. That's why bartering is better right now. Items have value plat does not.


We need more meaningful sinks, not less. Once plat has some value again then it might be time to think about adjusting some of the sinks.

If the economy wasn't broken, everything would be valued in plat, and nothing could be "more valuable than plat". That term wouldn't make any logical sense.

The value of plat lies in what you can use it for, IE what you can buy with it. That includes what you can buy on the AH. It does not have to represent something you buy "from the game".
So if people started using plat instead of bartering then plat would get value.
But that won't happend as long as there is a silly high AH tax and a low plat cap.

Bartering is not better because plat doesnt have a value, it's the other way around; Plat doesn't have a value because bartering is better, mainly due to the AH flaws.

For the record, it's not the seller who creates the price. Neither is it the buyer. It's the buyer's perception of the value and what he thinks is a deal compared to the seller's perception of the value and what the seller considers acceptable on the item. It takes both parties to enable the transaction. The seller might refuse to lower a price but that doesn't mean there will be a market for it at that price. This is still irrelevant to the need for more money sinks.


As for the point on AH limits support the game and you get benefits. Barter with the party, trade channel, forums. The options are there.

Indeed, the seller does not create the price, and I never said that btw, but if the market price is not high enough for him to get what he values the item to, he will not sell.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Basic real-life economic principles applies just fine.

The aount of money you can obtain is a limited quantity in real life, not so in this game.

Because money is increasingly worthless relative to rare items, no about of it would be enough to trade for some items. The AH fee doesn't make any difference in that area.

If you are in a country with hyper inflation, often you won't take a wheelbarrel full of money for your bread, you'd rather trade it for meat. That's where we are right now.

If the economy wasn't broken, everything would be valued in plat, and nothing could be "more valuable than plat". That term wouldn't make any logical sense.

But it is broken, and getting rid of the AH fee will make it worse, not better, as it will further increase the plat supply.

[Aaxeyu]

The aount of money you can obtain is a limited quantity in real life, not so in this game.

Plat is not unlimited.

Because money is increasingly worthless relative to rare items, no about of it would be enough to trade for some items. The AH fee doesn't make any difference in that area.

If you are in a country with hyper inflation, often you won't take a wheelbarrel full of money for your bread, you'd rather trade it for meat. That's where we are right now.



But it is broken, and getting rid of the AH fee will make it worse, not better, as it will further increase the plat supply.

There is not hyperinflation in DDO, not by a longshot.

[Junts]

Plat is not unlimited.



There is not hyperinflation in DDO, not by a longshot.

Actually what you propose is very close to hyperinflation, because under your proposal only around 4-7% of plat created in a given day will ever depart the economy, so it will rapidly accumulate to 8, 9, and even 10+ digit totals. Most higher-value items disappear once purchased on DDO, as we no longer play in an era when the higher value items are things like bloodstones and firestorm greaves which might be resold or retraded after a few months of use. Epic scrolls, large ingredients and red dragonscales vanish completely from the economy when used, but money spent to purchase them will not - it'll keep circulating, and continue to accumulate in the economy and force prices on an inflationary upward spiral.

Further, if players were even remotely incentivized to try to make a lot of plat, they'd actually do so, which would be a huge increase in the plat supply (multiplicative at the least, possibly exponential) that would compound this problem. Right now, people make plat incidently - they get stuff from questing, they list some AH stuff, etc. Players who really grind hard on plat after a certain point (usually a couple million on hand) are actually pretty rare, as there's not a whole lot for them to do with it.

However, people who do put their mind to making money make it incredibly fast. If people were incentivized to do this, al ot more of them would (instead of doing stuff like epic farming to get scrolls to trade for other scrolls, or running raids to get tradable scales for what they want, etc).

Infinite money supply + next to no money leaving the system + people being incentivized to the far easier task of creating money vs creating actual items to spend the money on = bad combination.

We're actually better off in a barter economy where platinum is only used for less significant purchases. The present DDO economy, while far from fair and not particularly efficient, is in fact pretty functional. If you have wealth, you can get nearly anything, and if you hvae something rare, you can get a considerable amount for it in a fairly limited time.

[Martdon]

1) /not signed, as others have said this is the only plat sink in the game currently, and you have a in-game channel and a forum section if you don't want to deal with the cut

2) /whatever, I have noticed the compendium is getting updated, so perhaps it will mention it eventually

3) /not signed, by searching it's not needed. And you can't really compare it to weapons, as weapons are divided by proficiency type, just like armour

4) /not signed, I sometimes split stacks, but sometimes I want to sell them all together. Why should the buyer get to override what I want to buy

5) /not signed, I like being able to just stick it up for what I want for that stack

6) /not signed, going premium is really easy. Many companies would just not allow you to use an auction feature unless you paid, so the fact that they are allowing you to is more than fair

[Aashrym]

Plat is not unlimited.



There is not hyperinflation in DDO, not by a longshot.

Plat is readily available to the point it may as well be unlimited at high level and with that we do have I would consider hyper inflation without a corresponding recession or depression in the cycle.


Plat is subject to supply and demand too. The supply is so huge the demand becomes low at high levels and that is why it's value drops. The AH fee still won't change that if it gets lowered. There would just be more plat available without the sink.


The problem is circulation. It's not circulating out of the each player's possession and just sits in their bank. The player keeps playing because he wants XP and/or loot and the excess of plat just builds up. AH prices will still be high because player can still pay those high prices, and without the fee they will have more to pay higher prices.


Players need rare scrolls and ingredients because those do not have the same supply. Plat is everywhere, these items are not. Less value in comparison so really we end up being in a bartering economy. They are more like priceless objects.


We should be instituting individual housing to spend plat on, possibly training fees just to level up with a trainer. More consumable to spend plat on at the vendors. The would remove the plat from players and when their supply goes down the plat will become more valuable.


Basically, you can't make plat have more value just because you want it too when players have more than they need. The other posters who are stating we need money sinks are more on the right track IMO. Removing a money sink is counter productive to our in game economy.

[Aashrym]

Actually what you propose is very close to hyperinflation, because under your proposal only around 4-7% of plat created in a given day will ever depart the economy, so it will rapidly accumulate to 8, 9, and even 10+ digit totals. Most higher-value items disappear once purchased on DDO, as we no longer play in an era when the higher value items are things like bloodstones and firestorm greaves which might be resold or retraded after a few months of use. Epic scrolls, large ingredients and red dragonscales vanish completely from the economy when used, but money spent to purchase them will not - it'll keep circulating, and continue to accumulate in the economy and force prices on an inflationary upward spiral.

Further, if players were even remotely incentivized to try to make a lot of plat, they'd actually do so, which would be a huge increase in the plat supply (multiplicative at the least, possibly exponential) that would compound this problem. Right now, people make plat incidently - they get stuff from questing, they list some AH stuff, etc. Players who really grind hard on plat after a certain point (usually a couple million on hand) are actually pretty rare, as there's not a whole lot for them to do with it.

However, people who do put their mind to making money make it incredibly fast. If people were incentivized to do this, al ot more of them would (instead of doing stuff like epic farming to get scrolls to trade for other scrolls, or running raids to get tradable scales for what they want, etc).

Infinite money supply + next to no money leaving the system + people being incentivized to the far easier task of creating money vs creating actual items to spend the money on = bad combination.

We're actually better off in a barter economy where platinum is only used for less significant purchases. The present DDO economy, while far from fair and not particularly efficient, is in fact pretty functional. If you have wealth, you can get nearly anything, and if you hvae something rare, you can get a considerable amount for it in a fairly limited time.

Dang you're faster than me on responding to that.

It is well put. I would +1 you if I could.

[KillEveryone]

There are other money sinks besides the AH. So, that means, that its not the only way "money vanishes". I would argue that its not even the most significant money sink. I postulate that more money is "lost" in transactions of buying pots, scrolls, and other vendor goods than the AH generates. A stack of 100 pots is about 8000 plat. I can go through 100 pots pretty **** fast.

There is no justifiable reason the AH should have a 30% fee. Just because a player feels another player shouldn't use the AH is not a justifiable reason, and is absurdly conceited.

Haste, Rage, CSW pots all cost me 5,199 plat for a stack of 100.

Heal scrolls - 11,438 for a stack of 100.

Teleport scrolls - 7,799 plat for a stack of 100.

Resurrection scrolls - This one actually gives me pause when I use them - 85,096 for a stack of 100. I generally don't buy these but it isn't the expense so much, it is the players. Many people see that they have health when they get raised then charge back into the frey before they get any kind of resistance or buff that would help them survive so I don't dish these out often.

My non-casters suck down Haste and Rage pots like a crack w-h0r-e. I don't think anything about using a haste pot to just to get from point A to B if I haven't the Pendant of Time because I wan't to get where I'm headed and those expeditious retreat clickies don't get me there fast enough when I'm impatient(it isn't really much longer, I'm just being impatient.)

For someone that can make a lot of plat, supplies is trivial. The only time that the expense of supplies becomes an issue is for those that have certain guild rules for play style, new players, casual that don't have capped characters and don't play to farm out some plat.

This plat sink is minimal at best and for someone that can make a lot of plat, trivial. It is soooooo easy to make plat. High level quests give you vendor trash that has a high value when selling it but it is still vendor trash simply because a person may have that exact same item but at a lower min level. I pull a lot of stuff from Shroud that is a min lvl 15 that is the exact same thing as my min lvl 13 item. High level quests don't give much anything better than a lot of other quests simply because of how the random loot generator works. A lot of times it will just have a higher min lvl which ups the value of that item when sold at the brokers.

If the prices of these supplies were to be raised to compensate for the amount of plat in the game, it would ultimately hurt players and people would probably decide that having to do just loot runs is no fun instead of just playing the more fun quests that don't give out the good loot.

[Dopey_Power]

I'd like to draw everyone's attention to Diablo II. Gold is worthless, as there is nothing to buy with it *in game* that effectively destroys the gold. Without gold being destroyed, it was simply passed player to player, until the market became supersaturated. Now, the market is in High Runes. If DDO doesn't find MORE ways to destroy player platinum, this will end up happening anyway. Removing the 30% AH fee would simply accelerate this fate.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Plat is not unlimited.

Really, what limits it? If someone wants to grind they get unlimited plat.

There is not hyperinflation in DDO, not by a longshot.

Are you new to this game? If you are trying to pay in plat, prices for most things are 10 times what they were a year ago.