Introduce difficulties after Elite, mainly to reduce TR grind

[pjw]

There have been a few threads about TR grind recently, and they centre around debates over difficulty (or lack of) and repetition (and undersirability of). I suggest adding two new difficulty levels:

- TR1 (say) which would be one level up from Elite and include a 1.75XP first-time multiplier
- TR2 (say) which would be two or maybe 3 levels up from Elite and have a 2x XP first time multiplier.

These two difficulty levels should challenge a full group of TRs.

At the same time, linearize the XP required so that TR1 was 1.61 x Normal and TR2+ would be 2.3x normal, so total XP is unchanged.

This would still allow the grind-gods to grind out 10 x Monastery to their hearts content while allowing players like me to grind less but have more of a challenge as I levelled.

Some Numbers

The current system gives the following XP (as a percent of total required) at each level via quests assuming 3xNormal, 1 Hard, 1 Elite:

1 73%
2 104%
3 97%
4 114%
5 136%
6 130%
7 129%
8 136%
9 124%
10 111%
11 125%
12 106%
13 88%
14 84%
15 50%
16 43%
17 45%
18 34%
19 44%

Which basically means that from 17-20, players need to hold back levels and grinds good quests 10 times.

Under this proposal, we would have:

1 35%
2 54%
3 55%
4 70%
5 89%
6 106%
7 125%
8 140%
9 142%
10 136%
11 160%
12 158%
13 146%
14 139%
15 117%
16 109%
17 89%
18 76%
19 82%

Which would mean more grind at levels 1-4 but considerably less at L17-20.

If we did not linearize, then the percentages would be:


1 73%
2 104%
3 97%
4 114%
5 137%
6 153%
7 169%
8 179%
9 172%
10 156%
11 175%
12 165%
13 146%
14 133%
15 108%
16 96%
17 76%
18 63%
19 65%

which is still considerably better than the present.

Note 1: These figures are not taking into account optionals, conquest bonus, trap bonus or explorer areas.

Note 2: They assume a total of 6 repetitions of every quest (N,N,H,E,TR1,TR2) taken at appropriate levels. (edited: correted the number of Normal reps)

Note 3: I'd make the TR1 and TR2 difficulties available to everyone, not hust TRs.


Im not sure this is a complete solution, but it might be a step in the right direction.

[sirgog]

Cautiously /signed, with two major caveats:


1) Currently Normal is (almost always) better XP for time than Elite anyway for level 8+ quests, as bosses die faster, shrines can be run past, etc. IMO Elite should offer more XP than it currently does, and Normal should offer less. The new difficulties should be quite lucrative XP/timewise, IMO.

2) Just making monsters have higher stats doesn't guarantee a harder quest. Consider epic VON1 - the monsters there have very high stats, yet the quest is extremely easy. Likewise elite Cabal for One has (for its level) very powerful monsters, yet can be soloed by a level 12 fleshie wizard easily. Quests would need to be tested individually at these higher difficulties (let's call them Heroic and Paragon), or some quests would slip through that are no harder on Paragon than on Normal (think The Shadow Crypt).

[Templarion]

/not signed

I complained about grind before. Now I have understood it. It is good as it is.

Suffer it long enough and you will know why it is there.


PS. Of course, major changes to level design, AI, number of enemies, their tactics etc. could be made but that never happens. So it is good as it is.

[pjw]

Cautiously /signed, with two major caveats:

1) ...The new difficulties should be quite lucrative XP/timewise, IMO.

Yes, agree. And should offer a genuine challenge, but not the epic-style slog-fest with just more HP etc.

2) Just making monsters have higher stats doesn't guarantee a harder quest...

Indeed; intruducing genuine team work or difficulty derived from something others that DPS/HPS would be refreshing. Also, I hope, cheaper than the alternative -- developing whole new high level adventure packs.

... (let's call them Heroic and Paragon)

Good names!

[pjw]

I complained about grind before. Now I have understood it. It is good as it is.

Not removing it, just offering an alternative. You can grind, or you can run genuinely hard quests. Seems like a good choice to offer.

Suffer it long enough and you will know why it is there.

Stockholm syndrome, perhaps?

But, it does seem there are a number of people who love the repetitivegrind. I'm just not one of them. Doing 10xMonstery just does not appeal.

[Vellrad]

/signed

Or I would like to see new difficulty setting bringing quests' lvls up by 4-6.

[Krag]

I approve of any change reducing TR grind.
However in that particular case devs should introduce 2 additional difficulties to Shadow Crypt and not bother with other quests.

[pHo3nix]

Linearizing the xp would be a great improvement
And i like the idea of 2 more difficulties too, maybe removing casual difficulty as well

[pjw]

Linearizing the xp would be a great improvement

It's not as big a bonus at high levels as one might expect, but it helps.

At low levels, it makes life a little harder, but that is an easy price to pay.

And i like the idea of 2 more difficulties too, maybe removing casual difficulty as well

I'd keep casual; it is good for first-timers to see the quest, especially if they are not loaded with twink (or TR) gear.

[Cyr]

The best way to alter this suggestion to make it accomplish the goal of reducing grind while increasing the average challenge that TR's run is simple...

Have the TR1/TR2 difficulties provide DRASTICALLY better xp. These bonuses must be high enough to make their xp/minute ratios significantly higher then the same quests on normal. In the same manner hard and elite mode xp bonuses should be altered. In this manner the default choice for experienced players would be the hardest difficulty that the group can accomplish. Also additional runs of a quest on a higher difficulty already done should net you the first time bonuses for the next lowest difficulty you have not done already so there are no reverse incentives to run easier difficulties.

[grodon9999]

/not signed

I complained about grind before. Now I have understood it. It is good as it is.

Suffer it long enough and you will know why it is there.

Before I tear this apart as the stupidest thing every posted, could you explain a little why grind = good?

[Lithic]

The problem with higher difficulties is the xp/min ratios are lower (especially in quests where the group can easily split up and do 5 parts at once on normal, but needs to stick together on elite), as sirgog already mentioned.

The only fix for this would be to equalize the xp/min ratios over the difficulties, which means significantly increased exp on elite for most quests(rather than about +10% as currently implimented). A while ago I proposed an automated program that equalizes xp/min ratios across quests and difficulties by calculating the average completion time of each quest and each difficulty, then adjusting the exp automatically towards an "ideal" amount set by the devs. Unfortunately I can't find the thread, but I still think that such a program would be the best way to allow TRs to do Ex6/N/H, rather than sleep through Nx6/H/E. This would also mean every quest has the possibility of a great xp/min ratio depending on player skill, knowledge, and gear, rather than depending on decisions made by devs months, or years ago.

[DarkRea]

Very interesting idea and well backed up by relevant math, nice work!

Love sirgogs names for the two additional degrees.

The XP/time should also be adjusted, maybe with some quests having "special" XP bonus rates for being extra slow on Paragon fx.

/Signed

[MrWizard]

I think I know how someone would feel about the grind if I was just trying to race to level 20 again and again. That must be tedious.

I am level 17 on my first double TR...and all the horror stories about running out of XP so far are completely untrue. Yes, long way to go for level, but there is a lot of content. I do not farm, don't milk quests, and just try to do elite once and done.
I also just hop in pugs for fun quests too.

I still have some 14s, 15s, and most 16s and 17s to yet do on elite...and half way to 18 already.

But...I do understand the issue if you want to level fast...it takes a while. But I disagree with the 'not enough xp' argument. And next mod there should be some quests that are 16 or 17 on elite (the last ones are 15 on elite).. Just a ton of xp.

I find double TR and elite go well together...much more than my single tr was.


I don't care what they do, but I just do not see the 'out of xp' thing at all...

[Xezno]

As i see it the best solution would be to remove the level requirements for Epic and remove the xp deterioration for multiple completions on Epics. This way you can join your friends on Epic content at lvl 17/18 and get full xp every time. This would make the last few levels less grindy and more productive.

[CHARNAME]

I'm not sure I understand your numbers... You say that if you were to run each level 1 quest 3 times on normal you would only gain 73% of xp required for level 2 with the current setup?

I found that highly doubtful so I checked the wiki and even without any optional xp or any bonuses (which means someone dies in every quest and reenters) I got to a total of 10,296 xp from level 1 quests. Even if you are a double TR that's still 187,2% of xp needed to level up.

So what am I reading wrong?

[Thrudh]

/not signed

I complained about grind before. Now I have understood it. It is good as it is.

Suffer it long enough and you will know why it is there.

Tell us oh Obi-wan, why is it there?

I've suffered through quite a bit of grind, and yet no enlightenment yet.

[pjw]

The problem with higher difficulties is the xp/min ratios are lower
...
fix for this would be to equalize the xp/min ratios over the difficulties

The XP/time should also be adjusted, maybe with some quests having "special" XP bonus rates for being extra slow on Paragon fx.

I'm not sure I agree here; if the focus is speed, then perhaps people would just choose to still run Monastery 10 times. But if the focus was to avoid mind-numbing boredom, I would choose less XP/min but more fun/min.

While I would be very happy to see equalized XP/min it would not be essential for me.

I am level 17 on my first double TR...and all the horror stories about running out of XP so far are completely untrue...but I just do not see the 'out of xp' thing at all...

Because the numbers only get bad at around level 17. Wait until you get to 20, then report back. And let us know if you were forever holding back a level or not.

I'm not sure I understand your numbers... You say that if you were to run each level 1 quest 3 times on normal you would only gain 73% of xp required for level 2 with the current setup?
...
So what am I reading wrong?

Levels 1 to 3 are a bit misleading; whet I have assumed is that people do stuff at level only:

L1: Just do L1 quests (in reality, you are going to have to do more of these just to make L2)
L2: Do L2 quests + L1 Quests again (no first time bonus)
L3: Do L3 quest + L2 quests again + L1 quests on hard
L4: Do L4 quests + L3 Quests + L2 Quests on hard + L1 Quests on Elite
L5+: As above

With Heroic/Paragon, they get added at the appropriate levels.

It is quite possible I have missed some quests, but the total base XP I used at each level was:

1 3,212
2 12,426
3 17,138
4 21,215
5 28,548
6 30,380
7 38,264
8 53,536
9 44,192
10 51,970
11 70,739
12 50,999
13 27,362
14 56,437
15 8,299
16 39,031
17 50,727
18 40,166
19 53,388
20 18,655


If there is a more up-to-date total (esp. at L16+ or below L5), I'd love to have it.

[sirgog]

Linearizing the xp would be a great improvement
And i like the idea of 2 more difficulties too, maybe removing casual difficulty as well

I think they did well with Casual difficulty.

It's not designed for players like me, but it's one step easier than Normal and two steps less rewarding.

Contrast this to Hard, which is one step harder than Normal and one tenth of one step more rewarding, or elite, which is often three steps harder than normal but less than one step more rewarding.

Except for one time in The Shadow Crypt (and prior to the nerf, Enter the Kobold), Casual difficulty is pointless to those that can beat a quest on Hard. I'd like to see Normal become similar (for those that can beat Elite).

[Alabore]

/signed

Especially if new diff tiers extend the life of lower level quests.
Some chains I never manage to touch at level.
I quickly level past them, and they're good as gone.