Kill the Rep System.

[Gorbadoc]

*quickly checks his rep to see how far it drops because of this post*

If the review system is working correctly, it shouldn't drop (you haven't been particularly rude/trollish/whatever). I would point out, though, that, while this thread is peppered with the sorts of posts you describe, more than half of them contain actual arguments with actual informational content. It's even been explained how the reputation system is (or, rather, was) hurting the quality of discussions for everyone.

Your ignorance is a Catch-22. You ignorantly believe that this discussion is not worth your time, as it contains no compelling arguments. Eliminating your ignorance would have required reading the discussion, but the only way you would do that would be if you didn't hold your ignorant belief in the first place. I suggest two solutions: First, take a chance. Actually read, or at least skim, what people have to say, in case it turns out that some of us aren't idiots. Second, even if you can't be arsed to try to understand something, accept that it might still be worth understanding; that there is, in fact, nothing wrong with the people who do understand and care about the topic.

[Skirmish]

If the review system is working correctly, it shouldn't drop (you haven't been particularly rude/trollish/whatever). I would point out, though, that, while this thread is peppered with the sorts of posts you describe, more than half of them contain actual arguments with actual informational content. It's even been explained how the reputation system is (or, rather, was) hurting the quality of discussions for everyone.

Your ignorance is a Catch-22. You ignorantly believe that this discussion is not worth your time, as it contains no compelling arguments. Eliminating your ignorance would have required reading the discussion, but the only way you would do that would be if you didn't hold your ignorant belief in the first place. I suggest two solutions: First, take a chance. Actually read, or at least skim, what people have to say, in case it turns out that some of us aren't idiots. Second, even if you can't be arsed to try to understand something, accept that it might still be worth understanding; that there is, in fact, nothing wrong with the people who do understand and care about the topic.

I actually wandered back because I was doing another search in the forums for PAX and came across this thread again. I often, and gladly, admit ignorance. However, in this case, I think it is more that I chose the wrong words to convey my opinion. Which, I'm afraid, is par for the course for me. In your reply, you assume I posted in ignorance of peoples dissatisfaction with the rep system. While in fact I was trying to convey that the system itself doesn't actually do anything. So it only matters if you (that's a general "everybody reading" you, not YOU specifically) care about if other people like you.

In reply, I will simply say that I actually did skim several pages before posting. Most of what I read were simply /signed or simply 'Kill it now' posts. Yes, there are many people over the 13 pages who actually have a legitimate argument for why the system should be removed. But, personally, it has had zero effect on how I deal with the forums positively or negatively.

Being a non-intellectual, my poorly worded point of contention was that, for a vast number of players, the rep system means absolutely nothing to them what so ever. Whether it stays or goes has little effect on their daily game. I'd say life. But, it has even less effect on that. Many of us read the content of the post on it's own merits, not the if the poster had 10 or more green cubes.

As I understand it, accumulated negative rep still hasn't stopped anyone from posting. Even though, if it was actually working as it was originally intended, it would force those with a large amount of negative rep to go through a moderator for approval. Which means, if you are neg-rep'd by some griefer, you can still surf and post on the forums normally. Or, as I only recently learned, you can turn the system off and receiving any rep, positive or negative, has no effect on you at all. This, obviously, defeats one of the originally proposed reasons for the system. The forcing of those that abuse the forums to go through a moderator before posting.

All of this simply means that the system in no way actually effects your forum usage. It is simply a popularity meter that is unimportant fluff.

That is, of course, unless they actually fixed the rep system to prevent someone that has accumulated a great deal of neg-rep from posting. If they haven't, then rep-griefers can't actually get any satisfaction as their negative rep doesn't have an effect on their target. If they have fixed the one thing that should have stayed broken. Thus allowing rep-griefers to ruin the usage of the forums by others. Then by all means, kill it with fire, scatter the ashes, salt the earth upon which it has been strown, and then nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

But, if that hasn't been fixed and you can still simply continue on normally with your day with or without negative rep, I stand by my simple statements..
"Who actually cares about the rep system?"
"It can stay or go without effecting many players at all."

*Edit: One thing I did not address. If I had assumed the discussion was not worth my time or input, I wouldn't have bothered posting in the first place.

[Gorbadoc]

But, personally, it has had zero effect on how I deal with the forums positively or negatively.

It's a subtle thing.

I take it we all benefit if people 1) Argue, but 2) Do so politely and respectfully.
For example, I insist the best possible tempest build is X, you insist it's Y. We offer all the evidence we can think of, other people offer the evidence they can think of, and by the end of the discussion, it doesn't even matter who won, lost, or drew the argument: We have a great understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of each build. In short, respectful disagreements build knowledge.

The reputation system was hurting these discussions. Negative reputation was being handed out on constructive posts, for no better reason than that someone disagreed. At least some of the people who would have participated (constructively) in arguments do care about the reputation mini-game. For these people, even polite disagreement was being penalized.

The damage this does to the quality of conversation is subtle. My suspicion is that there's such a thing as a "passion for internet rightness"-- the same people who care deeply about presenting evidence in an online argument are the same sorts of people who will care if someone anonymously slaps them with negative reputation. If I'm right, the forum culture as a whole was worse off for the griefing that was occurring.

*Edit: One thing I did not address. If I had assumed the discussion was not worth my time or input, I wouldn't have bothered posting in the first place.

Yeah, I thought that was odd, too. Thanks for clarifying your words.

This is off-topic, but check out http://www.merriam-webster.com/video...ctvseffect.htm.

[Memnir]

I find it kinda sad that in the 3252 track-able Dev/Mod posts since we got the Reputation System Guide, and I had to qualify this with track-able posts since the 'Guide itself is nowhere to be found in the Dev Tracker, that nothing has been done or mentioned in regards to how the Mods want us to use the Rep system. Nothing we can point to and say... Yes, do this and not that! Oh sure, there have been a few posts hither and yon about how to report Rep you want to appeal - but even those are far and few in between with little real guidance on what we should be appealing... only if we feel it should be looked at.

But, no real guidance beyond what we see when we click and the still too-hidden-to-be-of-any-real-good-to-anyone Guide. And even then, the Guide is short on any real kind of assistance at all. If it was important - I have to think that it'd be in a more visible location. Say... at the top of at least Gen. Discussion.

All we get is that we can:
Approve (e.g. Well Said, Informative, Positive Contribution)
-or-
Disapprove (e.g. Inflammatory, Derogatory, Disruptive, Trolling, or violates community guidelines)

Which is almost no real guidance at all.

No, the System has pretty much been tossed at as and abandoned since 6/4/09. Is it any wonder the **** thing is being abused? I mean, it's pretty much been left to die on the mountainside like some defective Spartan child.

We're coming up on two years of having a system that most forum users just want gone -at least as far as this thread indicates (and if you want to prove otherwise, feel free to start one in support of it). In that time, I refuse to believe that the Mods are unaware of the negativity surrounding the Rep system - and yet they continue to do nothing to help the community properly use the system they foisted upon us. The only recourse left is for me to believe they just don't care. Because two years is a hell of a long time to just ignore a problem.


Mods, I ask again that you solve the problem in the most direct and community-approved way. Kill the Rep System. Since it is obviously not worth the time for any of you to talk to us about it - then it's not worth the trouble of keeping it.

Thanks for your time,

Mem.

[Chidane]

/notsigned I'd lose all my hard earned stuff!

[AMDarkwolf]

signed. Quite broken, please devs, just rid us of it please. It does not serve the purpose you had intended, and only costs you more time as u have to review posts that have gained neg rep for nothing.

Just get rid of it, problem solved all around.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

signed. Quite broken, please devs, just rid us of it please. It does not serve the purpose you had intended, and only costs you more time as u have to review posts that have gained neg rep for nothing.

Just get rid of it, problem solved all around.

Don't hold your breath. I can almost assure that this issue together with the atrocious idea of bunching the class forums together will stay around regardless of what the overwhelming majority of forum users opine. We are not seen as customers, we're seen as their subjects.

[Gorbadoc]

We are not seen as customers, we're seen as their subjects.

I don't know about that. It doesn't matter, because I don't want either; I want to be seen as a member of a community.

[karl_k0ch]

With the recent forums downtime, the forums have been upgraded to support English, French, and German as a forum interface language.

The English version still has the old Approve (with explanation)/Disapprove (with explanation) Radio Button.
The German version has the simple options "Ich finde den Beitrag gut", "Ich finde den Beitrag nicht gut.", i.e.: I like this post./I don't like this post. No further explantion.
For the French version, it seems not to be possible to +/- rep at all.

I find this heterogenity funny.

[Zero_Tolerance]

Rep can be turned off on your account if you don't like it. And review system is not working very well [didn't even know it is there]. I got negative rep total, and most of it for a post about guilds I like

/signed btw, it is a pointless system

[Gremmlynn]

It's a subtle thing.

I take it we all benefit if people 1) Argue, but 2) Do so politely and respectfully.
For example, I insist the best possible tempest build is X, you insist it's Y. We offer all the evidence we can think of, other people offer the evidence they can think of, and by the end of the discussion, it doesn't even matter who won, lost, or drew the argument: We have a great understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of each build. In short, respectful disagreements build knowledge.

The reputation system was hurting these discussions. Negative reputation was being handed out on constructive posts, for no better reason than that someone disagreed. At least some of the people who would have participated (constructively) in arguments do care about the reputation mini-game. For these people, even polite disagreement was being penalized.

The damage this does to the quality of conversation is subtle. My suspicion is that there's such a thing as a "passion for internet rightness"-- the same people who care deeply about presenting evidence in an online argument are the same sorts of people who will care if someone anonymously slaps them with negative reputation. If I'm right, the forum culture as a whole was worse off for the griefing that was occurring.


Yeah, I thought that was odd, too. Thanks for clarifying your words.

This is off-topic, but check out http://www.merriam-webster.com/video...ctvseffect.htm.

Or it could go the other way and prompt someone to post something inane simply to see what kind of rep they'll get from it.

[Drakos]

Rep can be turned off on your account if you don't like it. And review system is not working very well [didn't even know it is there]. I got negative rep total, and most of it for a post about guilds I like

/signed btw, it is a pointless system

Actually one correction here. You cannot turn the rep system off for your account, you can only turn off the display of your rep bar in your posts. You can still give and receive rep on posts, it just no longer shows your overall score. This is improtant only in that you can still get enough neg rep to put you into auto-moderated mode. The Devs have never said what that negative rep threshold is set to, but they have confirmed that it exists.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

With the recent forums downtime, the forums have been upgraded to support English, French, and German as a forum interface language.

The English version still has the old Approve (with explanation)/Disapprove (with explanation) Radio Button.
The German version has the simple options "Ich finde den Beitrag gut", "Ich finde den Beitrag nicht gut.", i.e.: I like this post./I don't like this post. No further explantion.
For the French version, it seems not to be possible to +/- rep at all.

I find this heterogenity funny.

Hmm...Since the German is newer I'll assume that is the current rules Turbine supports and just feel free to neg rep for anything i don't like.

[Chai]

With the recent forums downtime, the forums have been upgraded to support English, French, and German as a forum interface language.

The English version still has the old Approve (with explanation)/Disapprove (with explanation) Radio Button.
The German version has the simple options "Ich finde den Beitrag gut", "Ich finde den Beitrag nicht gut.", i.e.: I like this post./I don't like this post. No further explantion.
For the French version, it seems not to be possible to +/- rep at all.

I find this heterogenity funny.

So now the rep system is basically a social networking site esque like/dislike rating system?

I suppose, because thats what it gets used for anyhow.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

So now the rep system is basically a social networking site esque like/dislike rating system?

I suppose, because thats what it gets used for anyhow.

Yeah, the rep system is more honest in the German forums. Maybe we all should hang out there.

[Westerner]

Mods, I ask again that you solve the problem in the most direct and community-approved way. Kill the Rep System. Since it is obviously not worth the time for any of you to talk to us about it - then it's not worth the trouble of keeping it.

Thanks for your time,

Mem.

What Memnir said.

It's pretty obvious who the helpful and not-so-helpful posters are. You don't need rep to tell you that. The rep system is not worth the hassle and drama it causes.

I am baffled by the community reps silence on this issue. If you don't want to address in public, then at least talk to Memnir in private. Whatever the outcome, talking will help defuse forumite frustration.

I trust Memnir on this topic.

[Memnir]

A lot of time has passed - and I was just curious if the Mods had had enough time to put their thoughts in order so they can make some sort of address on this matter. The Rep system continues to be more of a detriment to this community then a benefit. If it were an in-game feature it would have been removed for griefing by now, one can imagine.


It would be a gracious gesture to the community to make some kind of declaration about the Rep system. And an even more meaningful gesture if it were just made to go away. Heck, I'd even be willing to stake my standing in the community that if you (the Mods) were to remove it and not say a word to us about it's removal - and we'd still be happy. That seems to be the most win-win situation that makes everyone happiest.


The Rep System has lived out whatever marginal uses it may have had to the community. Time for it to go.

[Habreno]

/Signed. And +1 to you too xD

[HumanJHawkins]

I totally agree with all of you... The rep system must burn. Now, can I have some rep?

[Talltale-Storyteller]

I remember when you first started this thread back in January, or maybe it was somebody else's, but I remembered a call being given to just disable it as asign of protest, I remember a few people posting agreeing to do it but a number of those have Rep on again....why am I the only one revolting?! *Waaah!*

No, but seriously you're right its broken and serves no purpose, so just turn it off. I think that says plenty right there. Also, by turning it off you deprive any rep based nonsense of any power. In short - it only matters as much as we make it matter, and by turning it off you clearly indicate it does not matter to you.