I'm fed up with Hound raids.

[Disavowed]

I can't belive how many failed Hound runs I've been in as of late. There are the rare occasions when a dog bugs out and that's acceptable I understand that. But this isn't the case. It's everything but. Come on people we were doing this at level 13-16 with about a 97% completion ratio. Now we have level 20 people in there and groups are failing at a 50% ratio. I'm hearing people saying they've failed 3 runs in a row. That's unacceptable.

As of now I will no longer be in a Hound run that I'm not leading. It's not hard to lead a hound run people.

Here's the BS stuff I've heard in what does and doesn't need to be done to the dogs and what actually needs to be done in the quest.

"Don't haste the dogs their charm will wear off faster." B.S. Do haste the dogs it's one of the few buffs that will work on them.

"Make sure the puppies have blur and displacement." No don't bother she's blind so it does no good except maybe if a reaver attacks it, but that shouldn't happen if melees guard a corridor with fog on it. The fog will agro the reaver to the caster and it will bypass the puppy.

"Make sure the puppies get hero and rage." Again, don't bother. They're immune to it.

"Put a globe up right away." No don't do it until the pups have established a stationary battle area. If Xyzzy moves around you can bet she's going to move near that globe and take the charm off the pups. So wait until she's no longer moving while fighting the pus and then put the globe far away from the fight.

Once the dogs are charmed. "I need heals". No you don't the puppies need heals drink a pot. "But I have bees." Then go stand near the puppies and get their mass heals the healers are throwing or hit the globe if we have one up.

"Don't give the puppies buff X it will make their charm go away because it will help them make their save. Wrong the charm is on a timer it always lasts the same amount of time. The only thing that will get rid of the charms are beholders, globes, death, and time. Nothing shortens or lengthens the length of their charm.

"We need a hunting party". No you don't, maybe on elite but even then you don't need one. If everyone stays in the middle and guards a fogged corridor very few if any mobs will even come into the center. This ones is the fault of us vets. We've done this quest so mant times we get bored and go out there to kill sh!t. The problem is the noobs see this and think that's how it's supposed to be done. They go out there and try to be like you. They start getting their arse handed to them and drag all the mobs in the middle. Yes you might get conquest from it but you're going to lose 10% from the newb dying out there anyway, and most people are level 20 and don't need XP. Nothing sucks more than a bunch of noobs on the outside dead or almost dead so that when it's time to kill the byatch we have no melees to do so. Stay in the middle people there's no need for a hunting party on normal or hard. Again elite maybe but the monk method is far better so agian no need for a hunting party. If you don't know the monk method LMK and I'll explain.

"We don't need a bard". Yes you do. You're a noob and you don't know the quest well enough to do it without a bard. Those of us who have done this a ton of times without a bard can say no bard and do it, but we know what has to be done to get by without a bard. The clerics know how to slip in and drop prayer w/o getting bees etc., etc.

Tank: "I don't need a fog clickie I'll just intimidate." Yes you do noob. A few people can get away with that. Your not one of them, and the ones who can get away with it still use a fog clickie just to be safe. If you get overrun while intimidating the agro diverts to the healers. They get bees and you both die. If you have a fog down the agro stays on you even if you're overrun.

"Casters put fog on all the portals where the mobs spawn in." No don't, unless you want all the agro on that caster who's most likely in the middle so now all the mobs are too.

A few things you should do. Have the caster cast bulls & bears if it's a wizzie. Clerics can spam heals that way w/o distarction. In fact have the caster gather and use the stones so the bard can be buffing w/o having to pay attention to a cooldown timer. Don't trade off the stones. Assign a person who knows how to use them to get the 4th stone. If nobody knows how teach them. It's only 1 stone and they most likely won't even have to use it but at least they learned how to do it. As soon as the caster charms a dog give it haste and a fresh one after each charm. You won't need mana for anything else but fogging the corridors.

I don't know how we've gone from almost a 100% completion ratio at level 13-16 where the standard run was 5 minutes and a good run was a 4 minute completion, to failing 1/2 the time now with multiple fails in a row.

I mentioned last night we were doing this 3x/day pretty much every day. Dude tried to call me out saying I was full of sh!t because the raid timer is 3 days. I had to explain that back then everyone could carry 10 toons 3/day on 3 toons and 3/day on another 3 toons the next day followed by another 3/day let us do 3/day everyday and that's what we did. The cap was 16 and we had nothing better to do. Five minutes to get there. 4-5 minutes to run the quest and in 10 minutes you were 1 raid run closer to a +3 tome. Hell we'd put up the LFM and start clearing the path leaving one behind to hold the instance all the way to the final beholder room. Someone would join and walk right up to the quest virtually. I was doing the math and I'd say most of us have somewhere between 500-1000 combined runs in there before the cap raise.

Anyway rant off and agin unless I'm leading a Hound run don't ask me to join anymore. No I won't get my bard, cleric, caster, or be the chew toy for your f'd up tactics.

[Srozbun]

Nicely put. I thought I knew the hound pretty well but still learned a few things from your post. What is the monk method that you mentioned btw?

[BlackSteel]

my guess is that most (not all, just most) of the experienced players are no longer running this raid. So the hound LFM's are populated with newer players.

I think I've ran this quest twice in the past year, and only for the first time bonus exp on a TR. The loot is very substandard, with the only thing in my opinion thats worth a dang still being the shields (desirable by only a very few builds anyway). I guess if you run it on hard, it has a very small chance of dropping a +3 tome. Not really worth the time, especially with the risk of failure. But then again, I refuse to grind out Reaver's Fate anymore for the slim chance at a tome there as well, and that ones a 15 minute afk lootfest.

[Irinis]

Nicely put. I thought I knew the hound pretty well but still learned a few things from your post. What is the monk method that you mentioned btw?

Is that the one where the fast monk or fvs grabs stones and the bard goes to the center just to buff instead of picking up stones?

[Chai]

When did charming, buffing, and healing dogs become hard again?

My suggestion to the OP - find a semi static group of people to run this with and do it twice a week.

[NeutronStar]

Eric, you are mostly correct, except...

1) Bard - On Normal, you don't NEED a Bard. One would be very nice but not really NEEDED. On Hard a Bard is necessary! On Elite, a Bard is necessary along with really good tactics.

2) Fogs - Fogging the hallways are completely unnecessary. In fact, when I lead Hound, I ask that no fogs be placed because the caster invariably places them too far out into the main hallway where the Renders running on the outside will run through them and then agro on the caster who, by now, is in the center.

Now that we've gotten that over with...



Two more things I need to mention about the n00bs in Hound these days:

1) People who start casting a fog as soon as they start running into the center tick me off. Yeah, I've heard the theory and I GUARANTEE you're just better off running straight to the proper spot and THEN use your solid fog clickie. Speaking of the proper spot...

2) Why the hell can't the n00bs EVER position Xyzzy in the right place in the middle? It's not that hard really. The absolute BEST place for her to be is just inside the East (longest) hallway. That way, should the beholders pop up, they have a longer way to go before their anti-magic eye uncharms the little dogs.

Sheesh!!

[Mr_Tank]

http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=snsbudl7a6lc

Ah good times

[NeutronStar]

What is the monk method that you mentioned btw?

On Hard sometimes and DEFINITELY on Elite, it's good to have a Monk (preferably Warforged) run on the outside to gather Render agro and beat on Beholders to keep them from making their way into the center.

[Disavowed]

Nicely put. I thought I knew the hound pretty well but still learned a few things from your post. What is the monk method that you mentioned btw?

Keep in mind it doesn't have to be a monk but it's a little better if you do use a monk because the run so fast and usually have good saves.

The battle plan stays the same everyone in the middle. Then you have a monk 2 if possible on the outside running laps hasted kiting the mobs. If you have 2 people running laps have them run opposite directions. Have the caster in one of the corridors waiting to refresh haste as they run by when needed. The monks will draw all the agro and they just keep kiting the mobs around the outside. Very few mobs will come to the middle. When the beholders pop the melees should be inside the corridor close to the outer edge. They just keep tabbing until they see a beholder. They then go outside and kill the beholder outside so it doesn't make it into the middle and uncarhm the pups. The other mobs will still be agrod on the kiters.

Generally you use the 2 stone method when doing the monk method and if the pups are bufffed properly and fast enough you won't need any more stones. You charm 2 dogs and flesh to stone the other pups in case you lose a dog to death. After a certain amount of pups die no more will spawn. This leaves 2 dogs charmed for a long period of time unless one dies or a beholder gets in to beat on her. It allows a cleric to only have to mintor 1 dog each so they can heal much more effectively and save a lot more mana.

[Disavowed]

http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=snsbudl7a6lc

Ah good times

TY so much for posting that. I always love seeing that video, but I do like the one referring to shafted a little more. +1 for sure. I want my buddy to see that so now I can link it to him.

[Irinis]

Eric, you are mostly correct, except...

1) Bard - On Normal, you don't NEED a Bard. One would be very nice but not really NEEDED. On Hard a Bard is necessary! On Elite, a Bard is necessary along with really good tactics.

2) Fogs - Fogging the hallways are completely unnecessary. In fact, when I lead Hound, I ask that no fogs be placed because the caster invariably places them too far out into the main hallway where the Renders running on the outside will run through them and then agro on the caster who, by now, is in the center.

Now that we've gotten that over with...



Two more things I need to mention about the n00bs in Hound these days:

1) People who start casting a fog as soon as they start running into the center tick me off. Yeah, I've eard the theory and I GUARANTEE you you're just better off running straight to the proper spot and THEN use your solid fog clickie. Speaking of the proper spot...

2) Why the hell can't the n00bs EVER position Xyzzy in the right place in the middle? It not that hard really. The absolute BEST place for her to be is just inside the East (longest) hallway. That way, should the beholders pop up, they have a longer way to go before their anti-magic eye uncharms the little dogs.

Sheesh!!

1. Bards are not necessary in a good group that knows what they're doing. Bards in a poorer group can give you the speed to not have to face big uglies instead of little uglies. Warchanters are necessary for speed runs, I'll admit. A pug doesn't have to be a speed run to do the raid well.

2. The OP was talking about the melees using solid fog to grab render aggro in the hallways. Nice tactic, I like it. You were talking about noob casters grabbing aggro and bringing it to the center instead of 4 different people guarding and dealing with it at each spoke. A whole different ballgame there.

...

1. I've seen so many inexperienced tanks get knocked over and then had the big dog run straight to me (the healer) when the tank didn't put up a fog going into the hallway in the first few seconds. It's not fun. Speaking as the healer, please put up a fog immediately to grab initial aggro and then move her to the correct spot and put up a second fog there. Thanks.

2. Agreed.

[LightInDark]

you think 3 times in a row is bad it took my cleric 8 attempts to get 1 successful hound run, I was begining to think he was cursed. I have to laugh (otherwise I would be crying).

2 clerics in middle , 1 outside with fighters (me), cleric healing dogs gets bees doesnt understand why his spell casting is not working all charmed dogs die (other cleric didnt even bother to heal the dogs cause his job was to heal the tank).

Fighters kill all dogs none charmed.

Wizard stones dogs.

Tank doesnt use fog clickie big dog runs round the outside kills at will, having killed clerics in the middle.

Non designated Player picks up stones, then stands in middle and doesnt know what to do, eventually passes stones to guildie, who charms one dog.

Non designated Player picks up stones then denies having done so.

Player picks up stones and charms reavers thinking they will hurt big dog.

and the list goes on and on.

[Disavowed]

Eric, you are mostly correct, except...

1) Bard - On Normal, you don't NEED a Bard. One would be very nice but not really NEEDED. On Hard a Bard is necessary! On Elite, a Bard is necessary along with really good tactics.

2) Fogs - Fogging the hallways are completely unnecessary. In fact, when I lead Hound, I ask that no fogs be placed because the caster invariably places them too far out into the main hallway where the Renders running on the outside will run through them and then agro on the caster who, by now, is in the center.

Now that we've gotten that over with...



Two more things I need to mention about the n00bs in Hound these days:

1) People who start casting a fog as soon as they start running into the center tick me off. Yeah, I've eard the theory and I GUARANTEE you you're just better off running straight to the proper spot and THEN use your solid fog clickie. Speaking of the proper spot...

2) Why the hell can't the n00bs EVER position Xyzzy in the right place in the middle? It not that hard really. The absolute BEST place for her to be is just inside the East (longest) hallway. That way, should the beholders pop up, they have a longer way to go before their anti-magic eye uncharms the little dogs.

Sheesh!!

I agree. But look closer at what I said. I said they (the noobs) need a bard. Those of us that have done it w/o a bard lots of times can go w/o a bard. You're correct on the fog too. I will only assign a fogger if I know they know what they're doing.

And very true on how and where to tank.

And Chai that's exactly my point when did it become hard and why should I need a static group to run hound when all we ever did in the past is pug it with the 1st level 13-16 people that joined. I'm not sure you were around in those days but that was the norm. Pug a Hound bring a healer or 2 and take whoever joins. Start clearing the path as others are joining and hold the instance til they catch up. Go in and finish in 4-5 minutes.

[smithtj3]

The thing people forget about Hound is that it is not an easy raid if you have no clue what's happening and once beholders start popping out things become exponentially ridiculous. In other words I agree with you, people fudge this raid up because they don't understand the most basic aspects of the raid and on top of which the group has to overcome the DDO trend of, "Since it technically CAN work, than it WILL work 100% of the time" ignoring the strategy that has been proven to work time and time again.

I honestly don't know why more people don't use the tried and true approach I have always used on quests I am new to. What are 90% of the other people doing? Do that. Someone has asked you to do something different, tell them you have never done that before. This does not require screaming, "I AM RZ N00BZ!!!! HEAJLZ!!!" over voice chat. Most people seem to use this approach however- What are 90% of the people doing? Disregard everything you see. Someone asks you to do something different, remain completely silent.

I had a hound run a few days ago that despite a rocky start did finish successfully but at the start I just thought, "*** were you thinking?". We had a player who bravely told us all he had never run hound before so we gave him the quick and dirty run down over voice and chat. We mentioned several times to not kill anything dog like at any point unless instructed otherwise. He played competently all the way to the raid entrance. However, as soon as we entered the raid he immediately, before buffs were even cast, ran into the center and started s**t housing puppies and mama alike. He wasn't the designated tank and the healers wisely opted to let things work themselves out naturally.

After the situation had stabilized again we reexplained everything and raised him at which point he performed fine. However, who the h*ll, on a raid they have never done, immediately just B-lines on entrance towards the biggest purple named they see, sans buffs, and starts wailing on it? The prospect of vehement nerd rage alone should have been more than sufficient deterrent had I been in his shoes.

[Disavowed]

you think 3 times in a row is bad it took my cleric 8 attempts to get 1 successful hound run, I was begining to think he was cursed. I have to laugh (otherwise I would be crying).

2 clerics in middle , 1 outside with fighters (me), cleric healing dogs gets bees doesnt understand why his spell casting is not working all charmed dogs die (other cleric didnt even bother to heal the dogs cause his job was to heal the tank).

Fighters kill all dogs none charmed.

Wizard stones dogs.

Tank doesnt use fog clickie big dog runs round the outside kills at will, having killed clerics in the middle.

Non designated Player picks up stones, then stands in middle and doesnt know what to do, eventually passes stones to guildie, who charms one dog.

Non designated Player picks up stones then denies having done so.

Player picks up stones and charms reavers thinking they will hurt big dog.

and the list goes on and on.

LMK when you need to do a hound run if you don't have the gear you need. It sounds like you know the program.

[Khanyth]

I agree with everything except for the Hunting Party.

The only well-led Hound run I've failed was because we did not do the normal NASCAR-style/kill team approach.

NASCAR, ftw



Also: I think you are being a little too strict on the definition of "need", but that's my opinion

[NeutronStar]

1. Bards are not necessary in a good group that knows what they're doing. Bards in a poorer group can give you the speed to not have to face big uglies instead of little uglies. Warchanters are necessary for speed runs, I'll admit. A pug doesn't have to be a speed run to do the raid well.

I can see your points here. Nonetheless, Bards are really not necessary on NORMAL with a good leader.

2. The OP was talking about the melees using solid fog to grab render aggro in the hallways. Nice tactic, I like it. You were talking about noob casters grabbing aggro and bringing it to the center instead of 4 different people guarding and dealing with it at each spoke. A whole different ballgame there.

Re-read the OP's 5th paragraph.

...

1. I've seen so many inexperienced tanks get knocked over and then had the big dog run straight to me (the healer) when the tank didn't put up a fog going into the hallway in the first few seconds. It's not fun. Speaking as the healer, please put up a fog immediately to grab initial aggro and then move her to the correct spot and put up a second fog there. Thanks.

Delaying getting into the center increases the odds that Zyzzy, while heading toward the slow moving (because they're using a clickie) tank, will continue out into the main hallway into the group when she notices them. If you as a healer go into the center too early before the tank has established agro that is either your fault because you didn't wait until the tank said to come in or the leader's fault because it wasn't made clear the tank should tell you when to come in.

[NeutronStar]

I agree. But look closer at what I said. I said they (the noobs) need a bard.

While that's debatable (a good leader can make up for a LOT of n00b deficiencies), I'll concede the point anyway. It probably is a good idea anyway.

[Alerax]

http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=snsbudl7a6lc

Ah good times

Lol, that was awesome! +1 for a good laugh at work XD

[Disavowed]

I agree with everything except for the Hunting Party.

The only well-led Hound run I've failed was because we did not do the normal NASCAR-style/kill team approach.

NASCAR, ftw



Also: I think you are being a little too strict on the definition of "need", but that's my opinion

I'll have to politely disagree. I've seen very few runs fail when there's no hunting party, and when they do it's usually because one or more of the pups bugged out.

As was mentioned above. This is the tried and true method that's almost fail proof if people follow directions. A hunting party requres too many things to land in place. Too many new people are too under geared to be out there running around w/o a healer. They get their arse haned to them. Again a bunch of geared out vets no problem go hunting.

But that's how we've gotten away from what has worked for me and all the others who have done this literally 1000 or more times. The noobs see this and they think that's the best way to do it. It's not it just allows the vets to have something to do while waiting. I will always look at who's outside running around killing stuff if it's a person I know. I'll let it go as they know what they're doing and if they die it's on them they won't bring mobs to the middle for heals. Noobs on the other hand will.