I'm fed up with Hound raids.

[English_Warrior]

wow and i thought we had it bad on khyber.

who was leading all your raids someone with 4 and X in their name?

The people who end up leading often seem to be quite knowledgeable....they seem to know the drill...some are even people I've grouped with before with great success through multiple lives and wide ranging content.

But for whatever reason it just seems that Sarlona PUGs just don't know how to do this raid to completion....the knowledge hasn't been passed on...something is being overlooked...and fail is the order of the day.

And what really gets me are the comments afterwards...."Oh it was a good try" "We just got unlucky" "It was just bad luck that such-and-such happened at the wrong time".....

...NO it wasn't bad luck ....we are a party chock full of level 20s, TRs, epip gear, raid loot, greensteel etc.....we didn't have bad luck... we screwed something up...but as I've never seen a successful Hound raid I have no idea what we did wrong or how to fix it next time.

[drobbins]

Nice. I still think this raid deserves its own special sticky where people can vent about their fails, because nothing is more irritating ...

I try to earn some good lag karma by teaching anyone new in the group the quest dos and dont's, but, well ... sometimes people just don't listen ... or its even worse when the leader starts contradicting you even though you know you are right ... I never push it because after all he's got the star, but its always sad to see misinformation perpetuating ...

I can't belive how many failed Hound runs I've been in as of late. There are the rare occasions when a dog bugs out and that's acceptable I understand that. But this isn't the case. It's everything but. Come on people we were doing this at level 13-16 with about a 97% completion ratio. Now we have level 20 people in there and groups are failing at a 50% ratio. I'm hearing people saying they've failed 3 runs in a row. That's unacceptable.

As of now I will no longer be in a Hound run that I'm not leading. It's not hard to lead a hound run people.

Here's the BS stuff I've heard in what does and doesn't need to be done to the dogs and what actually needs to be done in the quest.

"Don't haste the dogs their charm will wear off faster." B.S. Do haste the dogs it's one of the few buffs that will work on them.

"Make sure the puppies have blur and displacement." No don't bother she's blind so it does no good except maybe if a reaver attacks it, but that shouldn't happen if melees guard a corridor with fog on it. The fog will agro the reaver to the caster and it will bypass the puppy.

"Make sure the puppies get hero and rage." Again, don't bother. They're immune to it.

"Put a globe up right away." No don't do it until the pups have established a stationary battle area. If Xyzzy moves around you can bet she's going to move near that globe and take the charm off the pups. So wait until she's no longer moving while fighting the pus and then put the globe far away from the fight.

Once the dogs are charmed. "I need heals". No you don't the puppies need heals drink a pot. "But I have bees." Then go stand near the puppies and get their mass heals the healers are throwing or hit the globe if we have one up.

"Don't give the puppies buff X it will make their charm go away because it will help them make their save. Wrong the charm is on a timer it always lasts the same amount of time. The only thing that will get rid of the charms are beholders, globes, death, and time. Nothing shortens or lengthens the length of their charm.

"We need a hunting party". No you don't, maybe on elite but even then you don't need one. If everyone stays in the middle and guards a fogged corridor very few if any mobs will even come into the center. This ones is the fault of us vets. We've done this quest so mant times we get bored and go out there to kill sh!t. The problem is the noobs see this and think that's how it's supposed to be done. They go out there and try to be like you. They start getting their arse handed to them and drag all the mobs in the middle. Yes you might get conquest from it but you're going to lose 10% from the newb dying out there anyway, and most people are level 20 and don't need XP. Nothing sucks more than a bunch of noobs on the outside dead or almost dead so that when it's time to kill the byatch we have no melees to do so. Stay in the middle people there's no need for a hunting party on normal or hard. Again elite maybe but the monk method is far better so agian no need for a hunting party. If you don't know the monk method LMK and I'll explain.

"We don't need a bard". Yes you do. You're a noob and you don't know the quest well enough to do it without a bard. Those of us who have done this a ton of times without a bard can say no bard and do it, but we know what has to be done to get by without a bard. The clerics know how to slip in and drop prayer w/o getting bees etc., etc.

Tank: "I don't need a fog clickie I'll just intimidate." Yes you do noob. A few people can get away with that. Your not one of them, and the ones who can get away with it still use a fog clickie just to be safe. If you get overrun while intimidating the agro diverts to the healers. They get bees and you both die. If you have a fog down the agro stays on you even if you're overrun.

"Casters put fog on all the portals where the mobs spawn in." No don't, unless you want all the agro on that caster who's most likely in the middle so now all the mobs are too.

A few things you should do. Have the caster cast bulls & bears if it's a wizzie. Clerics can spam heals that way w/o distarction. In fact have the caster gather and use the stones so the bard can be buffing w/o having to pay attention to a cooldown timer. Don't trade off the stones. Assign a person who knows how to use them to get the 4th stone. If nobody knows how teach them. It's only 1 stone and they most likely won't even have to use it but at least they learned how to do it. As soon as the caster charms a dog give it haste and a fresh one after each charm. You won't need mana for anything else but fogging the corridors.

I don't know how we've gone from almost a 100% completion ratio at level 13-16 where the standard run was 5 minutes and a good run was a 4 minute completion, to failing 1/2 the time now with multiple fails in a row.

I mentioned last night we were doing this 3x/day pretty much every day. Dude tried to call me out saying I was full of sh!t because the raid timer is 3 days. I had to explain that back then everyone could carry 10 toons 3/day on 3 toons and 3/day on another 3 toons the next day followed by another 3/day let us do 3/day everyday and that's what we did. The cap was 16 and we had nothing better to do. Five minutes to get there. 4-5 minutes to run the quest and in 10 minutes you were 1 raid run closer to a +3 tome. Hell we'd put up the LFM and start clearing the path leaving one behind to hold the instance all the way to the final beholder room. Someone would join and walk right up to the quest virtually. I was doing the math and I'd say most of us have somewhere between 500-1000 combined runs in there before the cap raise.

Anyway rant off and agin unless I'm leading a Hound run don't ask me to join anymore. No I won't get my bard, cleric, caster, or be the chew toy for your f'd up tactics.

[Balkas]

You forgot to mention how the control stones are not Bard-Only and that yelling "THERE'S A STONE RIGHT HERE!!!" repeatedly over voice chat means absolutely nothing to anybody who doesn't know where "RIGHT HERE" is.

I'm pretty sure we both knew that raid was doomed from the start.

[Disavowed]

You forgot to mention how the control stones are not Bard-Only and that yelling "THERE'S A STONE RIGHT HERE!!!" repeatedly over voice chat means absolutely nothing to anybody who doesn't know where "RIGHT HERE" is.

I'm pretty sure we both knew that raid was doomed from the start.

Ding +1

That is so true. Here's a stone. Here's a stone. Pick the **** thing up and use it. Amd where the f is here.

[Ullysses]

Have ran lots of hounds, even though I'm one of the 'new generation'. Most complete, but some are horrible fails. I normally am the chew toy, so maybe I have a different view than most.

If your the healer, and I'm chew toy, don't follow on my heals. I'll run in, grab agro, and put up fogs, then you can come in. If you follow too close, you could get aggro/bees. A chew toy should have plenty of hp's/defense for you to take your time.

Chew toy should be the only one with bees. Chew toy stands so he gets healed with the dogs. No need for a globe. If a puppy gets out, don't touch it. Drag it through the fog. If your on the outside getting nailed, die on the outside. Don't run inside for heals. Only people inside should be chew toy, healer, and caster/bard/charmer. Everyone else either guarding tunnels with solid fogs running, or killing outside if doing the 'hunter' method.

On the hunter method, this seems to be the common way to do this now. However, the point is to kill stuff outside, not just run around. At least hit it once and kite it around. Just running past it does not establish aggro. And look behind you! That render that spawned behind you will be in the center before you get back around again!

[caution]

http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=snsbudl7a6lc

Thanks for the bump! Just reading the thread brings back all my inspirations.

[caution]

I can't belive how many failed Hound runs I've been in as of late. There are the rare occasions when a dog bugs out and that's acceptable I understand that. But this isn't the case. It's everything but. Come on people we were doing this at level 13-16 with about a 97% completion ratio. Now we have level 20 people in there and groups are failing at a 50% ratio. I'm hearing people saying they've failed 3 runs in a row. That's unacceptable.

You are right, it is totally unacceptale. Every single stuff up in hound is recoverable, and as people have pointed out, the first point of failure is leadership, followed by ignorance (which is usually where leadership comes in).

There are lots of tactics, some maybe worse than others, but as long as people play to the plan, then you are usually ok.

I blame a lot on the 'one year vets' who really spread a lot of miss-information trying to pretend they are experienced and people who lead a party without being capable of it.

Hope you enjoyed the rant!

[doomboy]

quite right. by the way, is it p2p? cos it sounds like fun!

[lord_of_rage]

Your experience vs mine. NASCAR works for me and for each and every sucessful run I've done on Orien. Maybe Khyber prefers the F1 circuit

And your experience would be lower than his. Less time playing and odds are many many less hound runs. I rarely see a failure without a hunting party. I dont see the need for one. If you are failing because you dont have the nascar boredom going on then there are other issues you need to address. Not the hunting party.

[lord_of_rage]

And look behind you! That render that spawned behind you will be in the center before you get back around again!

This is a huge reason why the hunter method is a bad idea. Its just better to watch the hallways and handle anything that comes through. It worked close to 3 years ago, and it works now. It really hasnt changed.

[Disavowed]

Have ran lots of hounds, even though I'm one of the 'new generation'. Most complete, but some are horrible fails. I normally am the chew toy, so maybe I have a different view than most.

If your the healer, and I'm chew toy, don't follow on my heals. I'll run in, grab agro, and put up fogs, then you can come in. If you follow too close, you could get aggro/bees. A chew toy should have plenty of hp's/defense for you to take your time.

Chew toy should be the only one with bees. Chew toy stands so he gets healed with the dogs. No need for a globe. If a puppy gets out, don't touch it. Drag it through the fog. If your on the outside getting nailed, die on the outside. Don't run inside for heals. Only people inside should be chew toy, healer, and caster/bard/charmer. Everyone else either guarding tunnels with solid fogs running, or killing outside if doing the 'hunter' method.

On the hunter method, this seems to be the common way to do this now. However, the point is to kill stuff outside, not just run around. At least hit it once and kite it around. Just running past it does not establish aggro. And look behind you! That render that spawned behind you will be in the center before you get back around again!

Ding another +1. Heres a semi newbie that totally gets how to tank. You nailed the chew toy job to the cross. I couldn't have described it better myself. So if a 1 year semi vet can hit this dead on how the f are we sucking at this raid so much. Obviously information is getting passed on. Someone pointed out poors leadership. i would have to agree.

[Astraghal]

Here's a few tools and ideas that anyone going into hound should be aware of in order to help mitigate a lot of hound disasters.

Silver Flame Talisman

To have no defence against beholders while doing this raid is completely irresponsible.

No, your Mantle is not a good enough substitution.

I see too many people in hound for whom encountering a beholder spells instant death.

Vorpals

Contrary to what people say about not having vorpals out in hound, these are by far the most effective way for melee's to kill renders.

Just don't swing them near a puppy, it's not rocket science.

Every melee should be using vorpals on the renders.

Raise Dead

If you are capable of using scrolls or have a clicky, don't wait for the clerics to raise dead party memebers. I have seen way too many dead party members remain dead, because they clerics were too busy healing to raise them.

Strength in Numbers

If you're patrolling the outside, stay in a group.

I always see people try to race each other around the outside, spreading out and losing their strength in numbers. If you're a monk, ranger or a barbarian you don't need to run ahead of everyone else.

You're putting the raid at risk in your juvenile efforts to be coming 'first'.

[Disavowed]

Most failed PUG HoX's today fail because the leader isn't doing their job. They assume that everybody knows what's up, and provide little to no information. The default assumption should now be that a lot of people in every PUG do NOT know what's up (whether or not they admit it). If you are leading a HoX run, and you lead off with, "Ok, everybody knows what's up, right? Ok, so just as a reminder, don't kill the little pups... Let's go." you deserve to fail. We are not living in the olden golden days when you and all your friends ran HoX at level 14. Look around you and lead the raid you put together, or pass the reins to someone who is capable. Yes, I know constantly leading raids while providing information in excruciating detail gets old and boring fast, but if you're pugging this one out, you need to step up and give a lecture.

You have obviously never been in one of my hound runs. I have led at least 600 hound runs and have been in at least 1000 of them and every one of them are/were Staight up LFM pugs Not my "friends" as you put it. My Hound raids rarely fail. People on here that know me will back this statement.

I give a full description of the quest including a mental picture of the map and how it's set up every single time I do the quest. To be honest I lie (oxymoron) and say we have a person in here who isn't familiar with the quest so I'm going to over narrate for his/her benefit. I'm certain that some people on Khyber could quote my speech word for word as it's the same every single time and they've literally heard it 100's of times. Eample. I tell them. "When we sep in don't move, don't swing a weapon, don't jump, don't f a r t, don't do a f ing thing exept stand there." Then I explain why. Guess what some f ing noob tard still goes in and starts showing off how cool his tumble skills are. I'd say I was pretty clear on don't move and why.

I give assignments and assure the people given the assignments know what they're doing new or not. If it's a group of all newbs I will spend more time prepping them for the quest then it takes for us to do it. As of late I've done better with a full group of complete newbies to the quest than the tards that have done it 8-10 times and think they know what's up. All they know is enough to get them in trouble.

As far as stepping up and saying something when I don't have the star. I couldn't disagree more. The reason I say this is there's more than 1 way to do this quest. If I'm going to give advice than it's going to be how to do it exactly the way I do it every time without compromise. It will be my way or no way.

If we do it part my way and part the other persons way we're set up for failure to start. When his way may have worked too. If they want to pass me the star I'm glad to take it and do it my way, but who the f am I to step on someone's star and call them out in front of their group? So no, it's not my place to step up and give a "lecture" as there can only be one leader (read the other thread on this).

I always try to drop a subtle hint that I've done and led this quest more times than I care to think and every once in a while I'll get a tell asking if I'd like to take over. I gladly accept, but if I see an LFM up for a hound that's 3/4 full why would I step on them and start my own when I can just jump in their group? I've done it a ton of times and don't need to lead one when someone else is already leading one.

The bottom line is that this quest hasn't changed even though we as players have way better gear than we ever have. But guess what? We fail more now. Why? Because gear doesn't matter in there because we don't do anything but stand there and watch a dog fight. That's why there is no need for a hunting party. WE DO NOTHING BUT STAND THERE. There's no need to do anything else unless you're a bard, healer, and maybe a caster. You make less than 1 full loop around the map collapse to the center and watch the fight. Period. End of quest. It's that easy. The hunting party and the rest of the stuff is extra BS to fill someones ego.

[Disavowed]

Your experience vs mine. NASCAR works for me and for each and every sucessful run I've done on Orien. Maybe Khyber prefers the F1 circuit

Not to be an A s s but may I ask. How many "each and every successfull" runs you've done on Orien? Beacuse I can say for certain I've led hundreds of them probably closer to 1000 than 500 runs that I've successfully led. I'm pretty sure that the odds of failure go up playing Nascar compared to just guarding the corridors. It's very simple. There's way less to go wrong by just staying put. The mobs rarely come in. If you fail when everyone is staying in then you have a serious buffing problem which has nothing to do with a hunting party. There is no reason what so ever that a group should need more than the original 4 stones gathered unless one of the pups bugs out even on elite using the 2 dog method. The quest should be done before any of the stones lose their charm if the pups are buffed right unless you have no bard or are on elite. Then it should still only take the 4th stone to complete. So again there's no need to have people on the outside.

[Disavowed]

Why are we now charming the pups in 30 second incriments? Ie. Charm one wait at least 30 seconds then charm the next. Wait 30 seconds and charm the 3rd. That one amazed me.

So we wait a full minute before we charm the last dog. Now we're certain that the beholders will spawn and uncharm the dogs. Where the f did this come from? I was the charmer and had to do a double take when I was told to do this.

The quest is simple get the dogs doing as much DPS as soon as possible over anything else. Time is our enemy in this quest. The longer it takes to get them dishing out DPS the less DPS they can do during the charm timer and/or before the beholders spawn. It's a matter of damage maxec out in the shortest time possible. IE. get haste and bulls out before bears and stone skin. The healers will keep them alive just get them to start banging out max DPS asap.

[SiliconShadow]

Have ran lots of hounds, even though I'm one of the 'new generation'. Most complete, but some are horrible fails. I normally am the chew toy, so maybe I have a different view than most.

If your the healer, and I'm chew toy, don't follow on my heals. I'll run in, grab agro, and put up fogs, then you can come in. If you follow too close, you could get aggro/bees. A chew toy should have plenty of hp's/defense for you to take your time.

Chew toy should be the only one with bees. Chew toy stands so he gets healed with the dogs. No need for a globe. If a puppy gets out, don't touch it. Drag it through the fog. If your on the outside getting nailed, die on the outside. Don't run inside for heals. Only people inside should be chew toy, healer, and caster/bard/charmer. Everyone else either guarding tunnels with solid fogs running, or killing outside if doing the 'hunter' method.

On the hunter method, this seems to be the common way to do this now. However, the point is to kill stuff outside, not just run around. At least hit it once and kite it around. Just running past it does not establish aggro. And look behind you! That render that spawned behind you will be in the center before you get back around again!

This is how I run my elite runs all the time 1 healer 1 buffer and moi tank centre all others on the outside, I use solid fog and intimidate, everything dies, vorpals are a must for me here.

For normal I use the 3 stones buff and destroy her method, hard/elite I use charm 2 kill one have 2 stones for the recharm/safety, I like to play it safe there unless we get the best in.

I tell you what VoD is a little harder now on elite with only 1 healer :P I enjoy it a little, btw paladin tank >>>> any thing unless he is a wf paladin tank so arcanes can heal too, the stupid high saves, high defence, large dr, self heals, resurections, self curse removal, intimidate, high threat modifier in both of these raids far outweights anything any other class can provide imo.

[Disavowed]

This is how I run my elite runs all the time 1 healer 1 buffer and moi tank centre all others on the outside, I use solid fog and intimidate, everything dies, vorpals are a must for me here.

For normal I use the 3 stones buff and destroy her method, hard/elite I use charm 2 kill one have 2 stones for the recharm/safety, I like to play it safe there unless we get the best in.

I tell you what VoD is a little harder now on elite with only 1 healer :P I enjoy it a little, btw paladin tank >>>> any thing unless he is a wf paladin tank so arcanes can heal too, the stupid high saves, high defence, large dr, self heals, resurections, self curse removal, intimidate, high threat modifier in both of these raids far outweights anything any other class can provide imo.

On elite charm 2 and stone the other don't kill them as they keep dropping. You only get so may pups to respawn after that if you lose one you're down to 1 pup. If they are stoned you can use them later if needed. Unless they die no other will drop down once you have 3 on the map stoned or not. So just stone the last one and use him if you need to.

As far as the hunting party on elite you have room for an argument. If I know my group and how well/fast they can buff and do it correctly then I'm going no hunting party as we will be done with just 4 stones. Otherwise I prefer to just send 2 kiters and pick off the mind flayers as we see them if we need more stones. Either way works on elite. just a matter of preference.

[SiliconShadow]

On elite charm 2 and stone the other don't kill them as they keep dropping. You only get so may pups to respawn after that if you lose one you're down to 1 pup. If they are stoned you can use them later if needed. Unless they die no other will drop down once you have 3 on the map stoned or not. So just stone the last one and use him if you need to.

As far as the hunting party on elite you have room for an argument. If I know my group and how well/fast they can buff and do it correctly then I'm going no hunting party as we will be done with just 4 stones. Otherwise I prefer to just send 2 kiters and pick off the mind flayers as we see them if we need more stones. Either way works on elite. just a matter of preference.

Momma rarely moves off her chew toy if done with a good intimitank, which is by far the easiest as shield blocking blocks bees, the death of the puppies is preference to make it cleaner, that way we don't have to worry and we have the outside no problem.

[Backley]

Its late so i read this thread quickly, maybe i missed it, but i didn't see anything about using the break enchantment spell to uncurse the puppies to heal them better. I had heard that break enchantment would uncharm the puppies and if you could please confirm if this is true or not that would be really helpful to me, and maybe some other newbies running trying to run the hound.

Thanks,

Good question. I personally have seen the charmed puppies move in and back out of a globe of invulnerability without losing their charms.

Perhaps it was a Minor Globe of Invulnerability, which might make a difference? Does Minor Globe work for Bees?

Anyone able to confirm that they have seen a globe break the charm on a puppy? Or seen Break Enchantment or Dispel Magic break their charms?

[joaofalcao]

Tank: "I don't need a fog clickie I'll just intimidate." Yes you do noob. A few people can get away with that. Your not one of them, and the ones who can get away with it still use a fog clickie just to be safe. If you get overrun while intimidating the agro diverts to the healers. They get bees and you both die. If you have a fog down the agro stays on you even if you're overrun.

Youre either mistaken or they have changed the last time you checked that. I never lose agro when I am overrun and I never lost agro from anything else other than the ocasional lazy ass cleric that lets me die.



You may want to list another thing to your do/dont do HOX list. How about mentioning flanking bonus? if you got an intimidater all the time, you dont have to heal the dogs and they get flanking bonus. Healling the tank gets a lvl 6 spell, while healling the dogs usually gets a lvl 9 spell.