Archmage Arcane Archer

[JasonJi72]

Archmage Arcane Archer

Elf: 17 Wiz / 2 Rgr / 1 Ftr

Str 14
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 16 (lvl ups here)
Wis 08
Cha 08

Skills: Concentration, Balance, Spot, Haggle, UMD, some Jump and Tumble.

Leveling Path and Feats:

Rgr 1 Point Blank Shot (1)
Wiz 1-7 Extend *
Toughness (3)
Enchantment Spell Focus (6)
Empower *
Rgr 2 Ranged weapon focus (9)
Wiz 8-11 (Arcane Archer)
Heighten *
Manyshot (12), (requires +1 dex tome)
Mental Toughness (swap for toughness)
(Archmage)
Ftr 1 Ranged Improved Critical *
Wiz 12-17 Toughness (15)
Maximize *
Spell Penetration (18)

(#) Base feat and level taken

* Class bonus feat

Goal:

This is basically a theme build, not a min/max one, however, I am trying to make it as good as I can. My goal is to create an effective (non-warforged ) elven spellsword type of character that can still be an effective enchanter / caster while delivering respectable dps. The spellsword power will obviously come from the bow at later levels. I think this theme fits well with an elven caster. I am worried about spell penetration and spell dc. Not having Improved Precise Shot hurts too, but being an arcane caster should compensate for that. My reason for taking Archmage is to improve enchantment spell power. I may take some of the ‘free’ spells if I can fit them in, but enchantment spell mastery is the primary reason for taking the prestige class. Spell penetration may still be a problem, and I wish I could have fit in another penetration feat and taken more wiz levels, but I do have most of the feats I want by doing it this way. The fighter level could possibly be dropped, but it adds imp crit ranged, haste boost, and more hp right when I need them. Not having to rely solely on spells to contribute dps also frees up a lot of mana, and will allow me to add considerable damage on epic once the mobs are held IF my cc spells can be effective. If my enchantment spells will not be effective on epic, then I won’t run epic with this character.

I started this character on Cannith. She is called Jini. Yes I am a guy playing a female toon. I have made so many male elves, that I had to have something different to look at for a change. Also, she does look good in leather armor; the male elves not so much… 

Yes I know I will have to use a lot of divine power clickies. Furthermore, I won’t be as good with a bow as other archer characters, but I should still be an effective mage (at least that is my hope).

Wall of Fire
Mass Hold
Slayer Arrows
Greensteel Lit II bow
Haste Action Boost
Manyshot

Elven Mage… Rock On! 

[liltova]

Umm... Ew.

Just be a regular aa if you want to do that? Don't make a **** build..

[Carpone]

What content do you expect to be able to do with this build?

[Doxmaster]

In epics, if you arent using at least improved precise shot or manyshot (you are preferably using both), you should be in melee. 8 str or 30 str. 200 hp or 800 hp. Healbots, CC mages, AAs...everyone rolls up their sleaves, grabs either some picks or a neg level weapon and swings away.

AAs need manyshot (preferably with a BAB of 15), decent strength AND bowstrength, improved precise shot, slaying arrows, decent bows (Silver, greensteel and various named ones), the right arrows and a lot of skill. They usually end up needing melee skills, despite building specifically for ranged, to fully contribute to groups and their bow powers are for normal circumstances and traveling battles.

Enchantment mages (Mass hold focused) need high DCs. Spell penetration doesnt (currently) affect Mass hold monster, so maxing out your DC is your main concern there. Powerful firewalls are also needed, so Maximize and empower.

Try this: max int, 16 con, rest in Dex (Dont build this on a 28 point buy.) Either 20 wizard or 18/2 wiz/rogue. 1 toughness feat with ranged feats squeezed in between normal ones. Since you'll get something like 12 feats, this should be plenty for your needs. Here is my suggested feat list:
Maximize
Empower
Heighten
Toughness
SF
GSF
WF:Ranged
Spell pen
Greater SP
Mental toughness
Point blank shot
Rapid shot

There. no bowstrength, but you'll have roughly the full power or a normal wizard, with extra bow abilities added in. Since you dont have bowstrength, str is once again a dumpstat, so you can get con, Int and dex higher.

[JasonJi72]

In epics, if you arent using at least improved precise shot or manyshot (you are preferably using both), you should be in melee. 8 str or 30 str. 200 hp or 800 hp. Healbots, CC mages, AAs...everyone rolls up their sleaves, grabs either some picks or a neg level weapon and swings away.

AAs need manyshot (preferably with a BAB of 15), decent strength AND bowstrength, improved precise shot, slaying arrows, decent bows (Silver, greensteel and various named ones), the right arrows and a lot of skill. They usually end up needing melee skills, despite building specifically for ranged, to fully contribute to groups and their bow powers are for normal circumstances and traveling battles.

Enchantment mages (Mass hold focused) need high DCs. Spell penetration doesnt (currently) affect Mass hold monster, so maxing out your DC is your main concern there. Powerful firewalls are also needed, so Maximize and empower.

Try this: max int, 16 con, rest in Dex (Dont build this on a 28 point buy.) Either 20 wizard or 18/2 wiz/rogue. 1 toughness feat with ranged feats squeezed in between normal ones. Since you'll get something like 12 feats, this should be plenty for your needs. Here is my suggested feat list:
Maximize
Empower
Heighten
Toughness
SF
GSF
WF:Ranged
Spell pen
Greater SP
Mental toughness
Point blank shot
Rapid shot

There. no bowstrength, but you'll have roughly the full power or a normal wizard, with extra bow abilities added in. Since you dont have bowstrength, str is once again a dumpstat, so you can get con, Int and dex higher.

The only way to get those feats would be to go human. If you are not getting manyshot / bow strength / arcane archer, Then why bother with any archery?

Getting 16 con on an elf is really only viable for a pure caster, dropping str to 11 and raising int to 17 does seem like an option, but I already started the character.

I should be able to get spell dc as high or higher than a max cha warforged sorcerer. As far as not being able to run any content... I'm sorry didn't really get that one.

Ok, so the concensus is that this build sucks. Sorry for posting it. I was just trying to think outside the box and make an effective character that was not like everybody else. I did mention that this was also a theme build.

Is it impossible to make an effective arcane archer caster?

[Doxmaster]

The only way to get those feats would be to go human.

I was suggesting a 20 wizard. That is 12 feats. 7 normal ones. 5 wizard ones.

Also, I forgot you were doing an Archer build in the stat allocation for a moment. Here you go

32 point
16 dex
14 con
18 int

I believe Strength AAs use a similar amount of dex and still reach acceptable levels, though I've never tried a strength AA.

[Malky]

Half elf ranger dilly adds up to 8 str mod to damage with bows without a feat

Edit: just had a fun idea -> rogue 6 (mechanic 1) / wiz 14 evo archmage... arcane bolt / MM / CM and repeater shots during cooldown. It could be the one build with highest trap skills and overall ranged damage in game no mass hold tho

[Entelech]

Another thing to consider:

There's an animation lag when swapping between archery and casting a spell. I'm not sure if Quicken Spell and/or Quick Draw eliminates it, but it's sufficiently obnoxious that alternating Arcane Bolt and arrows will not do much good.

Any advice on this particular problem would be appreciated, as I'm leveling up a Cleric 12 / Fighter 6 / Ranger 2 Radiant Servant 2 / Kensai 1 / Arcane Archer Half Elf build at the moment, and cannot find references.

[Jaid314]

Half elf ranger dilly adds up to 8 str mod to damage with bows without a feat

Edit: just had a fun idea -> rogue 6 (mechanic 1) / wiz 14 evo archmage... arcane bolt / MM / CM and repeater shots during cooldown. It could be the one build with highest trap skills and overall ranged damage in game no mass hold tho

i'm not sure you fully grasp what you're saying. when you have those 3 spell-likes available to you, there probably won't *be* any cooldown.

also, the ranged dps is not going to be even remotely close to the highest. first of all, there is a distinct lack of good named repeaters. secondly, strength is *waaaay* easier to buff than int, even when you've got a wizard. thirdly, no manyshot with repeaters (not that you'll likely have most of the feats you need for decent ranged damage anyways). fourthly, no arcane archer abilities. fifthly, you won't have heavy repeater proficiency or you'll be missing some key ranged dps feats. sixthly, you won't have trap skills that will beat a max int mechanic, since you'll only have +3 int available that the mechanic wouldn't, and the mechanic has +2 trap skills from the second tier of mechanic... which is guaranteed to at least equal, and potentially exceed, your trap skills, at least until you add in that added tier of trap skill enhancements the mechanic II is forced to take. seventhly, nobody cares if you have the highest trap skills possible, they care in a very binary fashion (if they care at all); it is either enough, or it is not. nothing else matters. eighthly, your 3d6 sneak attack (well, plus a little more) is a joke compared to the 14d6+20 (or 14d6+28) that a pure repeater rogue will be doing.

it might be a moderately viable build, but do yourself a favor, and go full-on evocation spec archmage with enlarge spell. you'll probably have better dps than the above build, and while your absolute maximum range won't be quite as good, it's still plenty. or, make a pure repeater rogue (which comes much less highly recommended, unless you specifically want to build a repeater rogue... about the only area the repeater rogue build is best for is at being a repeater build, otherwise it really doesn't have much of anything meaningful to offer).

[Malky]

Another thing to consider:

There's an animation lag when swapping between archery and casting a spell. I'm not sure if Quicken Spell and/or Quick Draw eliminates it, but it's sufficiently obnoxious that alternating Arcane Bolt and arrows will not do much good.

Any advice on this particular problem would be appreciated, as I'm leveling up a Cleric 12 / Fighter 6 / Ranger 2 Radiant Servant 2 / Kensai 1 / Arcane Archer Half Elf build at the moment, and cannot find references.

I just made a lowbie fighter/sorc with rapid shot & quick draw (sorc ~= wiz with quicken with shorter cooldowns) and i had no problems casting MM inbetween bow shots, you just have to time it well. I tested with a repeater as well but the jamming bug seems to come much more often if you're casting between salves

i'm not sure you fully grasp what you're saying. when you have those 3 spell-likes available to you, there probably won't *be* any cooldown.

also, the ranged dps is not going to be even remotely close to the highest. first of all, there is a distinct lack of good named repeaters. secondly, strength is *waaaay* easier to buff than int, even when you've got a wizard. thirdly, no manyshot with repeaters (not that you'll likely have most of the feats you need for decent ranged damage anyways). fourthly, no arcane archer abilities. fifthly, you won't have heavy repeater proficiency or you'll be missing some key ranged dps feats. sixthly, you won't have trap skills that will beat a max int mechanic, since you'll only have +3 int available that the mechanic wouldn't, and the mechanic has +2 trap skills from the second tier of mechanic... which is guaranteed to at least equal, and potentially exceed, your trap skills, at least until you add in that added tier of trap skill enhancements the mechanic II is forced to take. seventhly, nobody cares if you have the highest trap skills possible, they care in a very binary fashion (if they care at all); it is either enough, or it is not. nothing else matters. eighthly, your 3d6 sneak attack (well, plus a little more) is a joke compared to the 14d6+20 (or 14d6+28) that a pure repeater rogue will be doing.

it might be a moderately viable build, but do yourself a favor, and go full-on evocation spec archmage with enlarge spell. you'll probably have better dps than the above build, and while your absolute maximum range won't be quite as good, it's still plenty. or, make a pure repeater rogue (which comes much less highly recommended, unless you specifically want to build a repeater rogue... about the only area the repeater rogue build is best for is at being a repeater build, otherwise it really doesn't have much of anything meaningful to offer).

Wooow calm down bro, it's just an idea. Iirc an all out evoc archmage can sustain about 180 dps and you won't even out-perform the repeater alone with that. The idea was to have ranged damage (ranged = more than 30 feet for me, SA doesn't apply here) that can stack with the repeater damage, but the simple fact that casting inbetween salves, while working, has a big downside effect (much more repeater jams) just destroys that idea big time until the jamming bug is fixed.


Back on topic : the hardest part for a pure AA wiz is feats, i looked for a feat selection that keeps all magic related feats a wiz has to take to be effective in the high end and... it's really feat-starved.

Pure half-elf wizard with ranger dilly (up to 8 str bonus to bow damage, hence everything above 26 str is 99% useless, so 8 or 10 starting str should be enough) :
SLAs : Hypno, Arcane Bolt, Arcane Blast

Mandatory (2)
Toughness
Rapid Shot

Prereqs (4) (for AA and AM with max enchant DC)
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus : Ranged
Spell Focus : Enchant
Greater Spell Focus : Enchant

Metamagics (5)
Maximize
Empower Spell
Heighten
Quicken
Extend

This leaves 1 feat for archery on a pure wiz : either Manyshot or IC:Ranged, hmm dunno here.

You may also try 17 wiz / 2 fighter / 1 monk, not being pure makes you loose 1 feat & 1 DC, so the end result is +2 feats (the monk feat must be toughness as it's the only one that is in their list). That one can have 3 out of Manyshot, IC:Ranged, PS & IPS, in order to get the last ranged feat you have to drop one metamagic... Extend maybe ?

[Jaid314]

no way does a repeater do 180 dps alone.

even a greensteel does only 2d8 damage per shot, +5 for being a +5 weapon. if we add in 2d6 holy and 1d6 fire on a normal hit (assuming you're going for radiance... we can make that holy and electric, if you prefer, it's not really a huge difference), you're doing on average 9 + 5 + 7 + 3.5 + int mod damage per shot, or 24.5 + int mod. we'll be generous and assume a 40 int. so +15. that's ~40 per shot. crits will add a bit more, of course... assuming you hit on a 2, you'll be dishing out on average:

1: no damage.
2-16 (i'll be generous and assume you have improved critical): ~39.5
17-19 (assuming elemental burst and blast): +2d10, average 11, and double damage, so 90
20: (elemental blast): +4d6 to the above, or average +14, so 104 damage.

this works out to an average of 48.325 per shot, assuming the RNG does in fact have an equal chance of generating each number.

correct me if i'm wrong, but with *full* feats, you'll be making 110 shots per minute. that's around 88.6 damage per second. if we make it lightning strike (just to be nice and add max damage), that's what, another 19.5 dps tops? (accepted damage is 600-650, and 2-3% proc rate. 19.5 comes from assuming 650 damage every time, and 3%... if you use 625 as the average, and 2.5% as the proc rate, it's only ~15 dps added).

so... you have a bit over 100 dps from the repeater alone, assuming a generous figure for intelligence. and assuming you hit on a 2, which isn't at all guaranteed.

like i said, do yourself a favor: go pure evocation spec archmage. you have damage that is for all intents and purposes sustainable. it will be higher than the repeater crossbow damage, won't cost you 12 larges (nor a greensteel blank) to make, doesn't require nearly as many feats (2 vs 7), bypasses most damage reduction and immunities, and is probably even better for damaging in AOE courtesy of arcane blast and chain missiles (the only time repeaters get respectable damage compared to other combat styles is when they hit multiple targets).

repeater rogues are not viable because of repeater damage being good; they're viable because sneak attack damage is so good.

[Malky]

120 shots/min at bab 20 with both feats iirc, and unlike spells melee/ranged damage can be buffed.
Let's see a best case scenario :

Normal shot with Lit II repeater :
09 Weapon
05 Enhancement
01 Force ritual
07 Holy
03.5 Lightning
15 int mod
01 Prayer
09 Pure Warchanter song, this one may vary, but it's a best case scenario here
04 2x ToD sets, some splashes may give more than that but it's already quite good
02 Ship buff
15 Lightning strike average (per shot! not dps -> 625/(100/2.5) = 15.62)
-----
71.5 average normal hit

On a crit :
92 Damage part affected by crit x2
12 Bloodstone
07 Holy
03.5 Lightning
11 Lightning Burst
15 Lightning strike average
-----
140.5 average crit

On a 20
140.5 average crit
14 Lightning blast
-----
154.5 Average on a 20

1 -> 0
2-16 -> 71.5
17-19 -> 140.5
20 -> 154.5
-----
Average hit : 82.42 with 120 shots/min -> 164.84 dps without SA not that far from a pur wiz nuking with SLAs

Of course with SA damage added... it's another story

Edit: Back from lunch, i forgot some parts like Flame Arrow that can be umd'd and adds 3.5 fire damage per shot. Overall it's fairly easy to break 180 dps pre-SA, and if you build a toon for that you can easily have above 200 ranged dps with a repeater unless you take the jamming bug into account ofc. The real difference is that the SLA-nuker would also have mass holds to be useful, when a pure ranged dps toon would only have ranged dps to offer, which is kind of poor group/raid-wise.

Anyway we're out of topic here, and i just noticed that in my feat selection a few posts above there's no spell pen feat at all, is it viable without or should i put one of them in the selection ?

Edit2 : I think i wasn't clear enough on a point : when i wrote 'xbow dps alone' i was meaning buffed xbow dps but without SA / spells cast inbetween salves, not xbow dps when you're alone. Since we both agree that a SLA-nuking wiz is a much more workable (and probably more enjoyable) build, can we get back on topic now ?