Tensers Transformation needs adjustment

[voodoogroves]

Tensers was only used in pen and paper as the final spell in combination with other spells that increase combat potential -eg polymorph.

For flavor only. Serious melee arcanes either had a natural BAB close to 20 (+16 is the mininimum w/ 9th level spells for a solid gish) or were a DP-gish and found a way to use Divine Power. Tensers may have had some use in fun spots in home games with some houserules, but any serious optimization ignored it.

[Dartwick]

Stacking = very bad

It would just be another pointless escalation of power.

On the other hand if you suggested changing it to +6 stats that would be fine. At least then it could be seen as an alternative to items.

[Entelech]

Interestingly, the useless nature of Tenser's Transformation is quite faithful to Pen-and-Paper rules. Which is kind of amusing, since Tenser was a high-level Wizard, and should have had a high enough Int to know better.

[Xyfiel]

My suggestion:
Full bab
+2 competence bonus to attack(won't stack with bard or items)

No penalty to casting
no martial profs, masters touch is better anyway
won't be useful to scroll from for a melee
battlemages would love not having to use DP clickies or equipping a competence item

[Hynoris]

Tenser in DDO is more like a debuff than a buff itself.

My sugestion is to make your main caster stat your bab and damage stat( +1 per caster lvl max +15) so a 36 Cha sorcerer would have +13 to hit and damage.

no spell casting of course.

And yeah,i'm probably never use it even after these changes.

[sirgog]

Even if it stacked, it would still be weak, probably too weak to use.

[donfilibuster]

Hulk Smash!

Would you prefer http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ironBody.htm ?

[GunboatDiplomat]

I am going to have to say no, I have seen more than 1 scroll of this and can easily imagine people stock piling a massive amount after this change to boost there UMD able melee'r and getting much more use then the wizard out of it.

This is a fair concern but one which could be addressed by removing the scroll from the vendors with no warning and thus no opportunity for people to stockpile. Start stockpiling NOW just in case In any case it would be only a small number of players who would do this and it wouldn't take too long for stockpiles to diminish in most cases.

As much as I like the idea of changing the bonuses to stack, I still wouldn't use the spell on my wizards/sorcs for the same reason I don't use Madstone Boots

The analogy with madstone boots is useful as its an example of another way a wizard can gain greater benefits from a clicky than from this spell.

On a wizard there's no room for an str item, there's other things you can use for rings/belt/wrist/etc.

Huh? I rarely run out of slots on casters and all of mine have a fair amount of greensteel/raid loot. In any case if you were THAT stuck you can always use the Bulls strength spell.

The only thing Tensers needs is the ability to dismiss it like a barb does their rage

This is an interesting idea as is the idea it could increase spell point costs but I don't feel its in the spirit of the spell.

simply put tensers transformation should be made to have the same or similar results to divine power - non stacking bonuses but not inhibitng casting....

.....an increase to the power of mele oriented buffs would cause a powershift and end up in monsters having even more hit points.

My feeling is that tensers should simply mimic divine power in all aspects, this cannot break anything as any mele focused arcane will already be using divine power clickies. Where as making the bonuses stack runs the risk of disrupting the balance.

Likewise here, I like the idea you can't cast while using the spell as it makes its use quite a bit more tactical. Melee clerics/fvs usually use both divine power and divine favour giving full BAB, +6 str enchancement and +3 to hit and damage for about the same sp costs as Tensers.

As for the powershift up the only danger I see in this regard is from UMD users (as above) as melee arcanes would still be amongst the weakest builds in the game and full catsers woould probably never use it still.

My sugestion is to make your main caster stat your bab and damage stat( +1 per caster lvl max +15) so a 36 Cha sorcerer would have +13 to hit and damage

Now THIS would make is massively overpowered

[Thuriaz]

On the other hand... maybe we aren't seeing the potential of Tensers in DDO, I think if you speeced a Pale Master/Archmage, Arcane Archer, Elf/Helf the boost to BAB etc would be worth even the trade-off of time in certain situations, for someone focusing on the limited nuking that Wiz (or Sorc?) offers it could be the solution to keep them viable after an SP dump.

So to the higher level wizies, this brings up a question also. Can you cast greater dispel from a scroll while in tensers? If so maybe that is part of the whole solution we aren't seeing to the over-long duration of the spell.

As for it being not in the spirit of the spell, I can agree partially a dismiss command wouldn't be quite in the spirit of the spell but (and I may be mistaken) neither is a barbarian dismissing their rage yes?

See I'd rather see a number of ways to make the spell more usable/useful than ways to see it "Buffed up" more. I don't think the spell "NEEDS" to be stronger. A well geared wizard is going to be carrying a fairly crammed backpack, they may not have room for Str and Dex boosting items, potions, or clickies. However Tensers takes care of that and does a bit more. If it's easily dispellable all the better. Perhaps if it's dispellable (but not easily) then what we need is for it to have a more easily dispelled advantage. However, tensers also has an offensive component to it that few ever make use of (if it works) as an offensive spell. It allows you to nerf opposing casters. Again, higher level wizzies need to test this out, if you cast tenser on an enemy caster do they (if affected) stop casting? If so it may be a good form of Caster Control to stop higher level casters from doing damage - maybe even comparable to hold monster depending on the nature of the mob it's hitting. After all, no saving throw, only spell resistance, I imagine you could stop some caster mobs from firing even a single spell with this very simple level 6 spell. What's better than a spell with no saving throw and only spell resistance after all?

So, to sum up my questions:

Can you scroll cast while under tenser?
Can you buy Greater Dispel Scrolls?
Can you Dispel Tenser with a Greater Dispel Scroll?
Can you cast Tenser on an opposing mob?
If you can cast Tenser on an opposing mob, does that stop them from casting spells?

Looking at this, we may be seeing a tactic from a fairly low cost spell to be MAJORLY useful in a variety of situations. Low on SP? Grab that great axe and cast Tenser and go to town. Threat over? Cast greater dispel and remove tenser's. Enemy caster around the corner, stop him with Tenser's. Seriously depending on the answers to the questions above there may be every reason for Tenser's to be "The Go To Spell" in some situations. Of course, if you can't scroll cast, dispel, or use tenser on a mob then right now it's nothing more than an interesting thing for the wizards to keep in their spell book.

[voodoogroves]

The answer to most of your questions is "no" ... you can't do that with Tenser's.

This isn't a DDO thing. It's a D&D thing. Tenser's is just as poor in PNP. In fact, it is decidedly MORE useless in PNP since so many other spells outclass it (any of the form altering spells, summons, etc.)



If the desire is to get arcanes a melee-buff, why change Tenser's from what it is? Why use the same name and radically change what it does?

How about instead melee forms w/ shapechange and/or polymorph and their related?

[Damionic]

My Tupence

Make it wipe out all the casters SP (but still keeping the SP limit to cast it)
Give it +6 on Str,Con,Dex and full bab
Give it full Simple/Martial weapons (can't remember if it has or not)
Give it a huge cool down (10min probably...and resting/death won't reset the timer)
Make it temporarily change your feats to that of a "standard" fighter
Make it auto arm your character with a +5 Flaming burst Longsword and +5 Mithral Heavy shield and +5 Mithral Full-plate/Docent

its an "if all else fails" spell for a reason.

[Thuriaz]

"If the desire is to get arcanes a melee-buff, why change Tenser's from what it is? Why use the same name and radically change what it does?"

I like that idea quite a bit more than making Tenser's MORE powerful. If it's a poor spell let it be a poor spell then and lets roll out a better one, a form change one should be viable soon from what the devs are saying so maybe that will be the next big thing.

[Aspenor]

The +4 Strength dexterity and Constitution bonuses for Tensers are currently enhancement bonuses which makes them pretty much useless as everyone of high level already has enhancement bonuses through items. I suggest they become a type of bonus which stacks with enhancement bonuses.

Yes it also makes your BAB equivalent to your level but this is widely available for 1.06 mins with a cheap divine power clickie. And the penalty of not being able to cast any spells at all is so severe you should at least gwet something for that.

This would change Tensers from a spell no one ever ever uses to a spell which MAY be of situational use to a small number of builds (most especially my gimpy fighter/wizzie ofc). "Will I cast tensers? But what if I need to recast displacement or haste???"

Wait for it. I already suggested a Tenser's fix that was received well by developers.

[GunboatDiplomat]

Wait for it. I already suggested a Tenser's fix that was received well by developers.

Ah interesting, could you provide a link please?

[Aspenor]

Ah interesting, could you provide a link please?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253265

[GunboatDiplomat]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253265

Many thanks, not what I would have hoped for but better than the status quo

[Logic]

I just want full BAB and to be able to cast spells. Stacking buffs are not needed. I Have an 18wiz/2fighter and I have never used this spell because it's so terrible.

[Malison]

Interestingly, the useless nature of Tenser's Transformation is quite faithful to Pen-and-Paper rules. Which is kind of amusing, since Tenser was a high-level Wizard, and should have had a high enough Int to know better.

Trouble was, he didn't have the wisdom to foresee how terribad not being able to cast spells would be, and he didn't survive the spell's duration to be able to change it.

[RATRACE931]

The only way I could see this work is if it instead makes your Int or CHA mod you tohit/damage mod.

[DukeP]

I like the idea for transformation, but theres something missing: The transformation!

1) Make arms turn into blades or spikes of.... - 1d10 damage + (int bonus)
2) Add int bonus to stats and ac as "natural" (stacking).
3) Go to war!

Why?

1) No hands, no spellcasting
2) INt bonus as base stack = does not turn into ultra UMD fighter buff
3) Sometimes, You just have to!

No feats needed here. The transformation is a physical one.
No weapons needed (might consider having effects transfer - damage bonus doesnt stack, but effects might?).

Results: The better the mage (int) the better the transformation. The use of TT clickies and scrolls will be reduced.

Bonus: consider all chat as profane - Its speaking an alien language!!

~~DukeP~~