Fighter vs Barbarian question

[sacredguyver]

I'm looking to make a new Warforged character and I'd like them to be a melee-type DPSer.

I can't decide between going pure Barbarian THF or pure Fighter THF. One of my biggest hang-ups is simplicity. I'm wanting a character I can use to run into a mob and swing away without having too many hotbars on screen (my monk uses 6 bars and my wizard has 8 bars... and counting)Just from that, barbarian seems the way to go with the natural Damage Reduction, speed boost to get in-and-out quickly, and (depending on the build) nothing more complicated than Rage and Cleave.

However, when looking at weapon choices, I'm getting the idea I could do more damage as a Fighter Kensei III, in which I could either focus on Greataxes with their higher damage die x3 crit multiplier like Khopeshes or Falchions, which have a standard x2 crit multiplier but a higher crit range.

The question(s) are thus: Which build would be higher DPS while leveling; Which build would be higher DPS at cap/during epics; Which build is more gear dependent; and Which build would be better overall?

[Nysrock]

I would go with whatever one you would have the most fun playing. Remember though, as a WF fighter type you will go through a lot of PP for Repair potions and you should always take Healers friend. Also, even on my fighters I have a lot of hotbars. There are healing pots, resist, remove curse, lesser restore, haste and barkskin. Then I usually have some clickie items to switch in and out as well as haggle items and such. Plus I always seem to carry a lot of different weapon types depending on the enemy.

That being said, both builds can and do have good DPS and survivability. It all depends on how you want it to be. I would look in the WF forums for some DPS type builds to get you started.

Good Luck.

[DToNE]

I don't have much experience, but I can only tell you what I understand from what I overhear from my guildies in party chat.

-Fighter apparently has higher non-crit damage, but much lower damage crits.
-Apparently all my Barb buddies crit for an average of 720 damage, but then again most of them have an ESoS.
-Apparently, there's a Youtube Video of a Barb that crits for an average of 900 damage average and quite often as well (this person doesn't even have Epic Maralith Chain yet).
-Fighters are better at dual wielding Chaosblades than they are with an ESoS from what I understand.
-Barbs can dish out some DPS while almost having 1000 HP, they can't quite reach it with Half-Orc since they TRd from Dwarves and Warforged.
-There are barbs that can reach a 91 STR on the server, and that's not fully buffed yet.
-Barbs are preferred over Fighters when groups are seeking DPS classes.
-It's almost pointless to go pure 20 fighter, it's almost always necessary to go pure 20 Barb.


Of course, these are things I hear from my DPS guildies in party chat. They're all VERY good players, so I'm guessing they know what they're talking about.

[callforkills]

-It's almost pointless to go pure 20 fighter, it's almost always necessary to go pure 20 Barb.

Fighters capstone is worth going pure, + 20% attack speed.

[Niktoo]

If you absolutely must go WF, make sure to get some healing amp!

Asking what does more DPS pure thf barb or pure thf fighter is almost gauranteed to start a flame war between the two camps. Both classes are excellent. But it's generally agreed that fighters do quicker damage during their haste boosts and that barbs do more sustained damage as fights go on. Certainly, both do a ton. The barb also gets 150 to 200 more hp, some static dr, and sprint boosts while the fighter has an abundance of feats for more customization, and the ability to use clickies while not madstoned. Both have some boosts you will have to activate.
You should make your choice based on flavor,imo. Both are much much simpler to manage hotbar wise than a monk or wizard. If you go barb, be sure to check Shade's guide for WF barb.

[Consumer]

I don't have much experience, but I can only tell you what I understand from what I overhear from my guildies in party chat.

-Fighter apparently has higher non-crit damage, but much lower damage crits.
-Apparently all my Barb buddies crit for an average of 720 damage, but then again most of them have an ESoS.
-Apparently, there's a Youtube Video of a Barb that crits for an average of 900 damage average and quite often as well (this person doesn't even have Epic Maralith Chain yet).
-Fighters are better at dual wielding Chaosblades than they are with an ESoS from what I understand.
-Barbs can dish out some DPS while almost having 1000 HP, they can't quite reach it with Half-Orc since they TRd from Dwarves and Warforged.
-There are barbs that can reach a 91 STR on the server, and that's not fully buffed yet.
-Barbs are preferred over Fighters when groups are seeking DPS classes.
-It's almost pointless to go pure 20 fighter, it's almost always necessary to go pure 20 Barb.

Several good examples of why you should not listen to rubbish or incomplete knowledge told to you by guildies.

[Malky]

-Apparently all my Barb buddies crit for an average of 720 damage, but then again most of them have an ESoS.
-Apparently, there's a Youtube Video of a Barb that crits for an average of 900 damage average and quite often as well (this person doesn't even have Epic Maralith Chain yet).

That's only on a natural 19-20, when the target is auto-crit'able the average barb crit damage drops to a lower value.

Barb rules for non-epic trash
Fighter rules for bosses (up to 13 x 30% haste boost is that good) and epics
(fighter dps scales better than barb dps, hence why endgame fighter > endgame barb for dps)

Make your pick

[sacredguyver]

Barb rules for non-epic trash
Fighter rules for bosses (up to 13 x 30% haste boost is that good) and epics
(fighter dps scales better than barb dps, hence why endgame fighter > endgame barb for dps)

Anyone else able to speak in favor of this?

Epic is starting to be a big focus on my characters, which is why I've LR'ed my monk twice and spent 4 exceptional shards changing my wizard from an Evoker to an Enchantress Archmage, which is why the Fighter vs Barbarian question is a big one for me.

[Rasczak]

Fighters capstone is worth going pure, + 20% attack speed.

That capstone no longer exists...it's now 10% Double Strike chance with 10% Ranged/Throwing Speed

Comparrisson of ease:
Kensai 3 Gets the +8 Str clickie and a passive +1 to Crit Range as well as Damage and Att modifier enhancements.
FB Barbarians get +1 Crit Range, +1 Crit Modifier and a Pure Barbarian has a Rage of +8 Str, +8 Con +4 Will (-2 AC). Rage can be increased through enhancements, if you have ap's pretty much another +4 Str while Raging. You also get more glancing blow damage with each tier of the PrE. The Capstone gives you +2 Str and more glancing blow damage.

The differences in DPS get made up by the Fighters massive amounts of feats gained while levelling whereas a barbarian is more class feats automatically gained.

Now if someone asked me the same question as you ingame I would suggest a barbarian. No thought involved, make sure while levelling you gain power attack, cleave & toughness (should have them by level 6 easily). Click rage and swing with big numbers floating around. Worth it to go pure barbarian.

A fighter on the other hand does take some thought with regards to building them and playing them. Kensai's will have probably the same amount of clickies though as a barbarian but more thought involved to gear and building.

Once you kitted up on a barb it's a case of demand buffs, haste and rage (spell), click rage....swing. I myself can't play them much since I like being active and autoattacking doesn't do it for me

[Kriogen]

...
The question(s) are thus: Which build would be higher DPS while leveling; Which build would be higher DPS at cap/during epics; Which build is more gear dependent; and Which build would be better overall?

"Which build would be higher DPS while leveling; "
The one that is alive, not screaming "hjeel me, curse, resto, haste" and doing quests and not waiting for that perfect group. Screaming wastes time, time is DPS. If you wait or you are dead, you have 0 (zero) DPS

"Which build would be higher DPS at cap/during epics; "
The one with better gear.

"Which build would be better overall?"
TBH, the one you invest the most time. As long as your build is not a total gimp, it has alot to do with gear.

For leveling adaptable, versatile, self sufficient char is better. For DPS you need STR*speed*gear and be alive.

One idea would be to lets say go Evasion Fighter (Fighter18/Rogue2 hybrid) for leveling and then, if you want Capstone, LR and remove Rogue. Or just keep Evasion.

[Cetus]

Fighte > barbarian


I have my reasons.

[Consumer]

Fighter > Barbarian

I would agree with this.

[Malky]

You may also consider this build

[Malison]

I played a barbarian, only got him to 16 before I understood why I hated him so much: can't use clickies raged, can't use a large selection of pots raged, can't do anything but hit frenzy and autoattack and pray for a nannybot.

I haven't played a fighter, but I'm certain it would fit my playstyle better.

Barb rules for non-epic trash
Fighter rules for bosses (up to 13 x 30% haste boost is that good) and epics
(fighter dps scales better than barb dps, hence why endgame fighter > endgame barb for dps)

Make your pick

Said barb was miserable at killing nonepic trash mid/lategame trash compared even to a dex ranger. Sure, you're hitting for massive damage, but everything has thousands of hp and it's just not worth it.

The following represents my opinion only:
I choose barbarian over fighter for epic trash. Barb's higher strength offsets fighter tactics for stunning blow, and then they get a higher crit multiplier on 19-20.
I choose barbarian over fighter for hate tank. Frenzies once a minute and go, with higher base hp.
I choose fighter over barbarian for bosses re: haste boost.
I choose fighter over barbarian for parties without nannies.

[Kinerd]

In terms of simplicity, managing rage is (marginally) easier than managing haste boosts, and for each class not using them takes away a lot of power, so I would recommend a barbarian for you.

[LordPiglet]

You may also consider this build

+1 for beating me to it

[sacredguyver]

Fighter > barbarian


I have my reasons.

Could you elaborate?

You may also consider this build

Looked it over, seems nice. Curious how it'll do as a WF THF, though.

That's my main interest: a WF THF. I'm not entirely opposed to multiclassing if it can get me better numbers than staying pure. I'll probably alternate between falchions and greataxes depending on what I find/can afford.

Here's another build I was linked to and am considering: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=199947

And one a friend posted elsewhere. It was made for Horcs, but I should be able to modify it for WF THF with little trouble:

Level 20 Chaotic Good Half-Orc Male
(2 Fighter / 18 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 438
Spell Points: 0


BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 9
Will: 6


Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 28
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 17 22
Intelligence 7 9
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 6 8


Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Barbarian)

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Barbarian)

Level 5 (Barbarian)

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave

Level 7 (Barbarian)

Level 8 (Barbarian)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Barbarian)

Level 11 (Barbarian)

Level 12 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh

Level 13 (Barbarian)

Level 14 (Barbarian)

Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Barbarian)

Level 17 (Barbarian)

Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow

Level 19 (Barbarian)

Level 20 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
Enhancement: Orcish Power Rage I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II

[Emili]

Fighte > barbarian


I have my reasons.

Pretty much...

[sacredguyver]

Pretty much...

"Pretty much" what? From your comment and the other poster's comment, you both share an opinion but haven't backed it up with a reason. Do fighters get more weapon choices than barbarians? Is the Kensei PrE better than Frenzied Berserker for end-game/epic DPS? More HP? More AC? More class skills? All questions that I would like answered so that I can make an informed decision.

Sure, numbers and many other things can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Fighters are superior to Barbarians at all stages of the game, but without those numbers/facts, I could easily go the other direction and make a gimpy barbarian.

[Fenrisulven6]

I played a barbarian, only got him to 16 before I understood why I hated him so much: can't use clickies raged, can't use a large selection of pots raged, can't do anything but hit frenzy and autoattack and pray for a nannybot.

Exactly. Barb VS Fighter DPS calculations should be revised as Barb w/Healer VS Fighter DPS.

Don't get me wrong, I like Barbs, its just that they should count as 1.5 toons since they usually need a lifeline.