Fighter vs Barbarian question

[grodon9999]

Exactly. Barb VS Fighter DPS calculations should be revised as Barb w/Healer VS Fighter DPS.

Don't get me wrong, I like Barbs, its just that they should count as 1.5 toons since they usually need a lifeline.

That's not fair, we're all "barbarians" in epics especially after the Madstone's proc.

[Dartwick]

Yes in the endgame fighters are no better than barbs at avoiding damage. Or at least not Kensai fighters.

[DToNE]

The funny thing is, I see the "DPS Aggro Pulling" game all the time, especially in long term fights. In this tug-o-war, all the classes are very differently built and the one that usually does the most damage wins to prize of being the tank.

What I see often is the Barbarian pulling aggro all the time. The irony of the next part is, I usually see a monk pull the aggro next, THEN I see fighter. As odd as this seems, I see monks pull aggro more often than fighters, but that might be because I'm around some really crazy monks most of the time.

Barbs are simply more dependable of having a competent DPS/HP build for the simple fact that they really can't do much of anything else in comparison to fighters. In comparison, fighters are very complex for a DPS class and can steer in many different directions. In the end, it's the Nissan Skylight vs Mitsubishi Evolution Lancer situation; race car vs rally car.

[pHo3nix]

Exactly. Barb VS Fighter DPS calculations should be revised as Barb w/Healer VS Fighter DPS.

Don't get me wrong, I like Barbs, its just that they should count as 1.5 toons since they usually need a lifeline.

I'd like to play with the fighters you play with..the ones i usually group with require a nannybot anyway..maybe those stalwart defenders take a little less physical damage, but their dps is not even close to the dps of a barbarian or a kensai..

Don't get me wrong, i love self-sufficient toons, but please don't say that fighters are self-sufficient cause they are not that much..

If you want max dps you are always relying on someone else to keep you alive, so calculations are fine as they are

[irivan]

So i once did a comparison table on this. I accounted for gear, feats, and enhancements

The reality is that Barbarians even with all of their rage effects

My calculation broke down to Barbarians having a total of +2 more to hit, and fighters with +2 more damage.

THe reason fighters win in the end is not just the overall figures, they have something drastic that Barbs do not have, well really two things that out pace them easily when everything is evened up. Fighter haste boost, and cap stone which increases double strike chances.

Two classes about roughly the same overall damage, just one gets a lot more attacks in.

Pretty simple really.

Remember when calcing this you just add up all barb and fight strength, then see at what point fighter bonus start bridging the gap and pass the barb, my calc did not even include to hit boost.

So fighters will have, specialization, greater specialization, kensai weapon spec 1 and 2, fighter weapon mastery 1 and 2

so i think +10 total just from that, that is the equivalent of 20 points for strength. But a barb can only really get 11 more points total, so there you have it.

Fighter = more damage, more attack output, and serious double strike.

But hey i still like my barbarian even kill my self while frenzying, its fun!!!

[Midgavia]

-It's almost pointless to go pure 20 fighter, it's almost always necessary to go pure 20 Barb.

Ouch.

[Cetus]

"Pretty much" what? From your comment and the other poster's comment, you both share an opinion but haven't backed it up with a reason. Do fighters get more weapon choices than barbarians? Is the Kensei PrE better than Frenzied Berserker for end-game/epic DPS? More HP? More AC? More class skills? All questions that I would like answered so that I can make an informed decision.

Sure, numbers and many other things can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Fighters are superior to Barbarians at all stages of the game, but without those numbers/facts, I could easily go the other direction and make a gimpy barbarian.

Sure, I can elaborate and brag a bit that I've pushed The Fighter to this,

but don't ask me for breakdowns or longwinded explanations for what you may think is impossible. This is the result I have come upon after years of twinking and refining.

1. Completionist feat much more easily incorporated as a feat (I said I had MY reasons, =D)
2. Epic marilith chain + epic claw set through gloves and bracers, epic abishai set through helm cloak and boots, greensteel HP item (tharnes when fighting on the ass) llitany trinket, shintao + ravager set.

Barbarians ultimately, with an even tome eaten, need a +7 strength item to even out- this forces their setup into having to wear the red dragon helm, and this also interferes with their ability to use the helm as part of their abishai set, so they'd be forced to have to use the gem of many facets to make it work- lose 1 point of dmg there. Also, when your boots are out of commission in TOD (unless you choose to risk getting banished), the fighter can switch to gem as the barb would be under normal circumstances, but the barb will need need to either give up a point of str or the abishai set to get the boots on.

3. The halforc fighter I currently play has 725 unbuffed hp, do the math yourselves with the standard buffs, mid to high 800's sustained in any given situation. (and I consider this low, by the way.) I don't really consider the *massive* pool of hp barbs get as an advantage against a fighter designed to main tank. They won't get above my much, maybe an extra 100 or so hp.

4. I've pushed a heal scroll UMD in virtually the same gear setup, and with the amp on the build each scroll pops for ~230. Barbarians obviously can't make use of that since their source of dps also inhibits their ability to cast.

5. Oh, the umd also applies toward other useful things, such as TS, restoration, rezzing, fireshield- you name it.

6. hitting low to mid 70's for intimidate. Almost no fail dq on a kensai, Most barbs have trouble getting into mid to high sixties.

7. Barbarians wear the frenzy set for 2 str 2 con and +2 dmg, this equals out to 3.5 dmg 20 hp and 1 stunning blow dc. Fighters should be wearing ravager set which does more dmg compounded with haste boost. This is versus your standard barb, what is it, 2d6 dmg per hit against mobs vulnerable to slicing, which is 7 average damage a hit + a DoT- this would be more dmg even on a barb than the crusty set, but- they lose 1 to hit, 1 tactics dc, and 20 hp.

8. Barbarians actually, surprisingly enough with all their str, suffer from to hit issues on epics until they get their epic sos's, or if one should die in an epic raid, or if dungeon alert skyrockets for some reason- fighters obviously miss on nothing but 1's. I have hit the epic wiz king on a 2 with a maul- (obviously no enhancements toward em).

8. Lastly, triple monk past life + pally clicky + all the toys in terms of abishai, claw, shintao, ravager, epic sos, epic marilith chain + haste boost = nobody gets aggro but me or that kensai AA for his 20 seconds of manyshot.

All of my reasons are in the context of end game content, because I feel this is the most important scenario under which to be competitive.

Cet

[pHo3nix]

Sure, I can elaborate and brag a bit that I've pushed The Fighter to this,

but don't ask me for breakdowns or longwinded explanations for what you may think is impossible. This is the result I have come upon after years of twinking and refining.

1. Completionist feat much more easily incorporated as a feat (I said I had MY reasons, =D)
2. Epic marilith chain + epic claw set through gloves and bracers, epic abishai set through helm cloak and boots, greensteel HP item (tharnes when fighting on the ass) llitany trinket, shintao + ravager set.

Barbarians ultimately, with an even tome eaten, need a +7 strength item to even out- this forces their setup into having to wear the red dragon helm, and this also interferes with their ability to use the helm as part of their abishai set, so they'd be forced to have to use the gem of many facets to make it work- lose 1 point of dmg there. Also, when your boots are out of commission in TOD (unless you choose to risk getting banished), the fighter can switch to gem as the barb would be under normal circumstances, but the barb will need need to either give up a point of str or the abishai set to get the boots on.

3. The halforc fighter I currently play has 725 unbuffed hp, do the math yourselves with the standard buffs, mid to high 800's sustained in any given situation. (and I consider this low, by the way.) I don't really consider the *massive* pool of hp barbs get as an advantage against a fighter designed to main tank. They won't get above my much, maybe an extra 100 or so hp.

4. I've pushed a heal scroll UMD in virtually the same gear setup, and with the amp on the build each scroll pops for ~230. Barbarians obviously can't make use of that since their source of dps also inhibits their ability to cast.

5. Oh, the umd also applies toward other useful things, such as TS, restoration, rezzing, fireshield- you name it.

6. hitting low to mid 70's for intimidate. Almost no fail dq on a kensai, Most barbs have trouble getting into mid to high sixties.

7. Barbarians wear the frenzy set for 2 str 2 con and +2 dmg, this equals out to 3.5 dmg 20 hp and 1 stunning blow dc. Fighters should be wearing ravager set which does more dmg compounded with haste boost. This is versus your standard barb, what is it, 2d6 dmg per hit against mobs vulnerable to slicing, which is 7 average damage a hit + a DoT- this would be more dmg even on a barb than the crusty set, but- they lose 1 to hit, 1 tactics dc, and 20 hp.

8. Barbarians actually, surprisingly enough with all their str, suffer from to hit issues on epics until they get their epic sos's, or if one should die in an epic raid, or if dungeon alert skyrockets for some reason- fighters obviously miss on nothing but 1's. I have hit the epic wiz king on a 2 with a maul- (obviously no enhancements toward em).

8. Lastly, triple monk past life + pally clicky + all the toys in terms of abishai, claw, shintao, ravager, epic sos, epic marilith chain + haste boost = nobody gets aggro but me or that kensai AA for his 20 seconds of manyshot.

All of my reasons are in the context of end game content, because I feel this is the most important scenario under which to be competitive.

Cet

Your post might be right, i don't really know or care, but point 2 and 3 made me laugh a lot: the barb losing 1 point of damage seems the end of the world, your fighter losing 100hp or more seems like nothing

[Cetus]

Your post might be right, i don't really know or care, but point 2 and 3 made me laugh a lot: the barb losing 1 point of damage seems the end of the world, your fighter losing 100hp or more seems like nothing

Well, 1 point of dmg across the extent of an entire boss fight, or when fighting autocrit stuff, which then turns into 3dmg/hit, makes more of a difference in my opinion than having 900 hp as opposed to 1k. Afterall, its a dps comparison.

[pHo3nix]

Well, 1 point of dmg across the extent of an entire boss fight, or when fighting autocrit stuff, which then turns into 3dmg/hit, makes more of a difference in my opinion than having 900 hp as opposed to 1k. Afterall, its a dps comparison.

Yes, as i said i don't know if you're right or not, but it made me laugh, that's all

[Malky]

*spills a beer and grabs some popcorn*

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Well, 1 point of dmg across the extent of an entire boss fight, or when fighting autocrit stuff, which then turns into 3dmg/hit, makes more of a difference in my opinion than having 900 hp as opposed to 1k. Afterall, its a dps comparison.

Hmm, 3dmg/hit on a mob that's going to die in 10 hits tops (not to mention that probably not all of those hits will be yours).
Yep. Definitely worth it.

[Astraghal]

Sure, I can elaborate and brag a bit that I've pushed The Fighter to this,

but don't ask me for breakdowns or longwinded explanations for what you may think is impossible. This is the result I have come upon after years of twinking and refining.

1. Completionist feat much more easily incorporated as a feat (I said I had MY reasons, =D)
2. Epic marilith chain + epic claw set through gloves and bracers, epic abishai set through helm cloak and boots, greensteel HP item (tharnes when fighting on the ass) llitany trinket, shintao + ravager set.

Barbarians ultimately, with an even tome eaten, need a +7 strength item to even out- this forces their setup into having to wear the red dragon helm, and this also interferes with their ability to use the helm as part of their abishai set, so they'd be forced to have to use the gem of many facets to make it work- lose 1 point of dmg there. Also, when your boots are out of commission in TOD (unless you choose to risk getting banished), the fighter can switch to gem as the barb would be under normal circumstances, but the barb will need need to either give up a point of str or the abishai set to get the boots on.

3. The halforc fighter I currently play has 725 unbuffed hp, do the math yourselves with the standard buffs, mid to high 800's sustained in any given situation. (and I consider this low, by the way.) I don't really consider the *massive* pool of hp barbs get as an advantage against a fighter designed to main tank. They won't get above my much, maybe an extra 100 or so hp.

4. I've pushed a heal scroll UMD in virtually the same gear setup, and with the amp on the build each scroll pops for ~230. Barbarians obviously can't make use of that since their source of dps also inhibits their ability to cast.

5. Oh, the umd also applies toward other useful things, such as TS, restoration, rezzing, fireshield- you name it.

6. hitting low to mid 70's for intimidate. Almost no fail dq on a kensai, Most barbs have trouble getting into mid to high sixties.

7. Barbarians wear the frenzy set for 2 str 2 con and +2 dmg, this equals out to 3.5 dmg 20 hp and 1 stunning blow dc. Fighters should be wearing ravager set which does more dmg compounded with haste boost. This is versus your standard barb, what is it, 2d6 dmg per hit against mobs vulnerable to slicing, which is 7 average damage a hit + a DoT- this would be more dmg even on a barb than the crusty set, but- they lose 1 to hit, 1 tactics dc, and 20 hp.

8. Barbarians actually, surprisingly enough with all their str, suffer from to hit issues on epics until they get their epic sos's, or if one should die in an epic raid, or if dungeon alert skyrockets for some reason- fighters obviously miss on nothing but 1's. I have hit the epic wiz king on a 2 with a maul- (obviously no enhancements toward em).

8. Lastly, triple monk past life + pally clicky + all the toys in terms of abishai, claw, shintao, ravager, epic sos, epic marilith chain + haste boost = nobody gets aggro but me or that kensai AA for his 20 seconds of manyshot.

All of my reasons are in the context of end game content, because I feel this is the most important scenario under which to be competitive.

Cet

This is hilarious.

Sure we can all browse through a list of all the available loot in the game and create our ideal toon.

But some of these builds are far from what anyone but the most dedicated power gamers are ever going to be able to achieve.

I'm pointing this out in case any newer players reading this are thinking of planning out their toons based on this information and the likelyhood that their toon is ever going to look like the one's described above.

Yes it's possible, but for the majority of people, even those who play a lot more than could be considered healthy, it's unlikely.

This seems to be the main theme that comes up when comparing builds.

I think we need to define a set of protocols we can use for discussing builds, based on a ratings system of how much time and effort is likely to be required to attain a certain standard in a build.

For example:

Class A build - can include all epic gear, +4 tomes, 36 point build, etc.

Class B build - can include +3 tomes, any raid gear, crafted tower rings, multiple green steel items, at least 32 point build etc.

Class C build - up to 32 point build, might include +2 tomes in main stats, dragon touched armor, a greensteel weapon etc.

Please allow me to prempt an exchange of opinions which will ultimately lead to the predictable stock response by assuring you my motivation for posting this out is not borne of envy.

I have good stuff too.

[redgod]

Red is better than Blue see i can prove it Red has less letters its faster and scarier thats why warnings are Red, but blue hurts more i mean would you rather bleed to death or bruise to death.

Red is so much better you should make a red.

[Malky]

Pink is just soooooooo much more sexy imho

[PopeJual]

I find that Paladins are significantly more click-tastic than either Fighters or Barbarians.

Paladins are still an order of magnatude simpler to play than Monks, however.

Figters and Barbarians each have their own niche and there are certain build directions that I would go for a Fighter that I wouldn't go for a Barbarian (and vice versa), but in the big picture, there really isn't much difference between the two.

In either case, you'll do significantly more damage on crits (and hopefully more damage overall...) than a monk just because the fist crit profile is terrible, but you'll be much less likely to save a party from disaster because Monks are tough as nails and come with lots of fun utility options when built correctly.

[grodon9999]

This is hilarious.

Sure we can all browse through a list of all the available loot in the game and create our ideal toon.

But some of these builds are far from what anyone but the most dedicated power gamers are ever going to be able to achieve.

I'm pointing this out in case any newer players reading this are thinking of planning out their toons based on this information and the likelyhood that their toon is ever going to look like the one's described above.

Yes it's possible, but for the majority of people, even those who play a lot more than could be considered healthy, it's unlikely.

This seems to be the main theme that comes up when comparing builds.

I think we need to define a set of protocols we can use for discussing builds, based on a ratings system of how much time and effort is likely to be required to attain a certain standard in a build.

For example:

Class A build - can include all epic gear, +4 tomes, 36 point build, etc.

Class B build - can include +3 tomes, any raid gear, crafted tower rings, multiple green steel items, at least 32 point build etc.

Class C build - up to 32 point build, might include +2 tomes in main stats, dragon touched armor, a greensteel weapon etc.

Please allow me to prempt an exchange of opinions which will ultimately lead to the predictable stock response by assuring you my motivation for posting this out is not borne of envy.

I have good stuff too.

Gear > Class

[ebit157]

The question(s) are thus: Which build would be higher DPS while leveling; Which build would be higher DPS at cap/during epics; Which build is more gear dependent; and Which build would be better overall?

My current TR project started out as a barb. Second life was fighter.

During leveling: Fighter hands down. Barbs don't really come into their own until FBIII. Fighter gets a lot of the perks that they generate their DPS from well before 18.

At cap: This is where the debate seems to lie. In my own experience with the same toon, the fighter was slightly more DPS. There are lots of threads where questionable math and egos are tossed around. Realistically they're so close that it doesn't really matter. Against a particular better geared barb on my server(epic marilith/sos/claw set) I found my fighter holding aggro in ToD while haste boost was active, losing it as my cooldown expired, and regaining it once I activated it again. That's just an example to show how close they are. 9 times out of 10 the character that does more damage is going to based on two things: gear and the player.

Gear dependency: They use pretty much the same gear.

Better build: The one that you get more enjoyment out of. I have to warn you though, once you experience haste boost, you will never be able to play a character without it with the same enjoyment. It is stupidly fun.

[grodon9999]

My current TR project started out as a barb. Second life was fighter.

During leveling: Fighter hands down. Barbs don't really come into their own until FBIII. Fighter gets a lot of the perks that they generate their DPS from well before 18.

At cap: This is where the debate seems to lie. In my own experience with the same toon, the fighter was slightly more DPS. There are lots of threads where questionable math and egos are tossed around. Realistically they're so close that it doesn't really matter. Against a particular better geared barb on my server(epic marilith/sos/claw set) I found my fighter holding aggro in ToD while haste boost was active, losing it as my cooldown expired, and regaining it once I activated it again. That's just an example to show how close they are. 9 times out of 10 the character that does more damage is going to based on two things: gear and the player.

Gear dependency: They use pretty much the same gear.

Better build: The one that you get more enjoyment out of. I have to warn you though, once you experience haste boost, you will never be able to play a character without it with the same enjoyment. It is stupidly fun.

We have our ****ing-contests in ToD part 2 when we surround the shadow master, 4 of us each take point and we see who he turns on. It's variable, and I see stuff that doesn't make sense according to the damage-calcs. in short-fights like this a kensai SHOULD own but I've seen a 32-point THF dwarf take aggro over some decently equipped Khopesh Kensais. Either aggro is based on more than just damage or the calcs aren't showing the whole picture (or he just rolled a bunch of 19s and 20s.

Like I said before gear > class

[Blank_Zero]

You may also consider this build

Or this one, since he wants WF THF.