The Unofficial Strength Based Pure Rogue Guide

[Ookami007]

THE UNOFFICIAL STRENGTH BASED PURE ROGUE GUIDE

DISCLAIMER

Let me preface this by saying that I've played since Beta on my different toons. I've found that my play style has leaned me time and time again towards rogues. I currently have 5 level 20 rogues - 1 human rapier build, 1 human khopesh build, a halfling khopesh build and a drow rapier build. Most started off DEX. All are now STR. Most I've LR'ed (Lesser Reincarnated) multiple times to play with different builds and options. One is a TR. He's been a rogue both lives. He's also been LR'ed 6 times... going back and forth between DEX and STR to verify many of the conclusions I've come to and now present here.

This guide comes not from fanciful theories, raw pointless statistics, fluffy ideas or diluted fantasies about how a rogue should be build, it comes from the school of hard knox. Tons of playtime with various builds, in all content from Korthos Island to Epic raids.

The information that follows is controversial. Some people will clinging so tightly to falsehood that no matter what you say, no matter how many facts you present, they can never let go. Your best bet is to try different builds, different combinations, etc. until you find what works best for you. I am confident that if you do as much "real world" testing as I have, that you will come to the same conclusions.

Now, on to the good stuff.

SO YOU WANT TO BE A ROGUE?

Being a rogue is not for the faint of heart. You don't get to wield large double bladed axes and hack mindlessly at them, nor do you get to wave your fingers and summon death and destruction. Think of rogues as the intelligent fighters. You don't just bat your big sharp piece of metal at the bad guy until he stops moving. Instead, you use strategy, cunning and superior knowledge to know the precise locations that will inflict the most damage on your opponent. You know just when, where and how hard to hit them to inflict maximum damage.

In addition, you’ve honed your skills to a level that no other class can touch. Your eyes are keen and see even the smallest out of place tile - a tell-tale sign of a trap. Your nimble fingers dance gracefully over even the most complex trap workings to render it useless. You also have an uncanny knack for getting things to work that shouldn’t work for you at all. Items enchanted to work only for a specific race or alignment easily yield their secrets to you.

Not only that, but your superior training and agility allow you to tumble out of the way of danger, or disappear from view at a moments notice, or if you are caught, you can always charm your way out of any circumstance.

Yes, the life of a rogue.


IN THE BEGINNING... CREATING THE PERFECT ROGUE

There are many philosophies on creating the perfect rogue. Some prefer Dexterity (DEX) based rogues, some Strength (STR) based rogues... others like a balance. This guide deals specifically with STR based, since they will do the most DPS (damage per second) over the long run. Other builds may be interesting flavor builds, but in the end, they don’t get the bad guy dead quicker - and that’s what most people are going to judge your effectiveness by: how quickly you kill the bad guy.

Dexterity vs Strength

Why go strength over dexterity? There are a number of reasons, but here are the primary advantages of both:

Dexterity
* Rogues get dexterity enhancements to increase DEX (your max DEX will be higher than your max STR)
* DEX increases your reflex save (good for traps)
* With the Weapon Finesse Feat, you will use your DEX modifier instead of STR for to hit rolls

Strength
* Strength adds to both to hit AND damage rolls
* Strength adds to carry capacity
* No need for Weapon Finesse

So, based on those... DEX seems somewhat alluring. But don’t let it fool you, DEX will do less dps. Anyone who tells you differently is either selling something (their flavor build) or doesn’t understand game mechanics.

The main reason to go STR is to do more damage. When you put your points into DEX over STR, your damage suffers because while you might use weapon finesse to take advantage of your DEX modifier, your STR modifier is still being used for damage. Let me illustrate that with an example:

Two rogues, both using rapiers (1d6/18-20/x2) in two-weapon fighting. One is DEX based, one STR based.

Rogue 1 - DEX based
STR: 16 - +3
DEX: 18 - +4

Main hand: 1d6+3 (Avg: 3.5) = 6.5
Off hand: 1d6+1 (Avg: 3.5) = 4.5

Pimary Avg Hit: 6.5 / Avg Crit: 13
Off-hand Avg Hit: 4.5 / Avg Crit: 9

Over 100 Hits:

5 Misses - 0
80 Normal - Primary: 520 Offhand: 288
15 Crits - Primary: 195 Offhand: 108

Total Dmg: 1111

And now STR based rogue... and the more the STR increases, the more of a difference there becomes

Rogue 2 - STR Based
STR: 18 - +4
DEX: 16 - +3

Main hand: 1d6+4 (Avg: 3.5 + 4) = 7.5
Off hand: 1d6+2 (Avg: 3.5+2) = 5.5

Pimary Avg Hit: 6.5 / Avg Crit: 13
Off-hand Avg Hit: 4.5 / Avg Crit: 9

Over 100 Hits:

5 Misses - 0
80 Normal - Primary: 600 Offhand: 352
15 Crits - Primary: 288 Offhand: 132

Total Dmg: 1372


As you can see, the Strength build does about 20% more damage over 100 swings. And the difference gets worse from here. Very clearly, STR based is the way to go to optimize your dps.

Be warned, this is a sensitive issue for many rogues, so you will see much bellyaching trying to prove otherwise... but do the math yourself and you'll see that STR wins... and the more the DEX rogue invests in DEX and less in STR, the more he lags behind.

KHOPESH VS RAPIER

There is much debate over which weapon to use when you’re a dps rogue. First, rule out quarterstaff and repeating crossbow - they are both single weapos and thus, will never give you as much dps as getting sneak attack from TWO weapons. Even with INT to your damage on crossbow (Mechanic) and DEX to your damage on staff (Acrobat), a single weapon will never out perform TWF because of the extra sneak attack.... you'd need an 80% haste on the single weapon to do the same damage.

That leaves it down to rapier or khopesh. Rapier, while favored by DEX builds because it is finesseable, is also a decent dps weapon because of it’s high crit range. A range only shared by scimitars - which sadly, we are not proficient in.

Khopesh offer a lower crit range, but a high crit multiplier. What does that mean?

It means that a khopesh will crit less than a rapier, but will do more damage when it does crit.

To give you an example of damage difference between the two, let’s compare a high level scenario where the following are true: you’re using greensteel weapons, you have a bloodstone (+6 seeker), your STR is 32 (not unusual with rage, etc.), Power Attack is on, Bard is playing, and a +2 PRofane bonus from Ship buffs.

So the stats are:

Rapier - 1d8 + 5 +5 (PA) + 12 (STR) + 7 (Bard) + 2 (Profane) = 34.5 pts avg per swing and 81 pts avg per crit

Khopesh - 1d10 + 5 +5 (PA) + 12 (STR) + 7 (Bard) + 2 (Profane) = 35.5 pts avg per swing and 124.5 pts avg per crit

Over 100 swings with the rapier, that’s 5% misses (1’s), 65 normal hits (2242.5) and 30 crits (2430) for a total of 4672.5.

Over 100 swings with the khopesh, that’s 5% misses (1’s), 75 normal hits (2662.5) and 20 crits (2490) for a total of 5152.5.

The khopesh wins by almost 500 pts over 100 swings. Are there advantages to the rapier’s higher crit range... yes, certain crit procs go off more frequently, but is it worth it? Only you can decide.

But for max dps, we choose khopesh.


ABILITY SCORE FOR DPS

So what are the best starting builds for STR-based rogues. That’s really preference to some degree. Some prefer more INT, some more CHA. Here’s my recommended builds:

28-pt Build
STR: 16
DEX: 15
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

I chose a starting STR of 16 because the value of going up to 18 isn’t worth the hit to other stats for +1 to hit/damage. DEX needs to be 15 in order to get to a 17 DEX for Greater Two Weapon fighting with a +2 Tome - easy to get or buy at higher levels. CON was put at a 14 and the remaining points put into INT. If you care more about UMD (Use Magical Device) than Skills, go CHA instead, but the extra INT helps with search and disable.

32-pt Build
STR: 16
DEX: 15
CON: 16
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

The extra 4 pts go into CON. Why? Because dead rogues do no dps. Get the reputation of being “squishy” and you don’t just hurt yourself, but all rogues.

RACES

Ask what the best race is for a rogue and you’ll get proponents for each one. But here’s the realistic breakdown:

Drow-elves - +2 DEX, +2 INT, +2 CHA, -2 CON - While better than their lighter cousins for rogues, the -2 to CON still hurts them in my book. The do have extra bonuses, including spell resistance and bonuses to rapier damage that help, but overall there are better choices. They are inheritantly 32-pt builds that you can get easily, so they may be a good choice because of that. (32-pt bld mod: Str: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 12, Wis: 8, Cha: 10)

Dwarves - +2 to CON, -2 CHA. Dwarves make excellent rogues due to their higher CON and bonuses with axes. Dwarven axes do more damage than any other rogue weapon and aren’t too expensive on the Auction House. It’s worth a feat to get them. (32-pt bld mod: Str: 16, Dex: 15, Con: 18, Int: 12, Wis: 8, Cha: 6)

Elves - +2 to DEX, -2 CON. While lithe elves seem like a good choice for rogues, their CON penalty is a game stopper in my opinion. While a DEX based Finese build would enjoy the +2 DEX, it doesn’t contribute much to the STR build. (32-pt bld mod: Str: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 14, Wis: 8, Cha: 8)

Halflings - -2 to STR, +2 DEX. The -2 to STR might first seem counter productive to the STR build... however... halflings make up for it in a number of ways. First, they get a +1 size bonus to hit, negating the to hit of the -2 STR. You still get a -1 to damage, but that is offset too in a way. The halflings get the GUILE series of enhancements which do extra damage when flanking an opponent (behind them). Since this is where rogues should be anyway, they can do an extra +5 to hit and +8 to damage. That’s like having a +10 STR to hit and +16 STR to damage. The only downside is it’s not STR damage, so not multiplied into critical hits. Still, the guile series makes this among the top dps’ing builds. (32-pt bld mod: Str: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 12, Wis: 8, Cha: 8)

Half-elves - With no penalties to any stats and the Dilettante, there are some interesting build possibilities... being able to use heal wands with no penalty (cleric), being able to use any weapon (fighter), etc. There isn’t enough good information and play time into this race yet to make strong case for or against.

Half-orc - +2 STR, -2 INT, -2 CHA - Strong strength and strong penalties. Still, I believe the STR enhancements, the extra power attack and starting STR make this a very viable candidate for dps king, but more testing and playtime need to happen before this title is undisputed. (32-pt bld mod: Str: 18, Dex: 15, Con: 16, Int: 10, Wis: 8, Cha: 6)

Humans - No penalties. They get an extra feat and +1 skill point per level. The extra feat is VERY nice on a feat starved rogue. And extra skill points are never missed. With human adaptability, you can bump up STR and CON, so overall human is a good choice.

Warforged - +2 CON, -2 WIS, -2 CHA - Warforged is an interesting choice for rogues. You get the extra CON, special immunities and a few nice enhancements. One of the biggest issues is healing. As a rogue, you’ll need plenty of it and having a penalty to divine healing may mean you appear more “squishy”. Still, it’s a solid build with few drawbacks.

FEATS

Feat selection for a dps rogue is fairly unforgiving. You might have a TINY bit of wiggle room with a human, because of the extra feat, but otherwise you’ll be locked in. Deviate at your own risk.

The feats you nee are Toughness, Power Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh, Two-weapon fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical Slashing.

One recommend progression is, but there are several orders you can take things and swap feats as you get higher.

Now that Two-weapon fighting doesn’t proc every time, it’s less valuable at lower levels where you may have issues hitting your targets. In lower levels, you might want to use a single weapon and avoid the -2 to hit for a 40% chance to proc your offhand.

1st - Power Attack or Two-weapon fighting (Human: Take Toughness here as bonus feat)
3rd - Exotic weapon proficiency: Khopesh
6th - Two-weapon fighting or Power Attack
9th - Imp. Two-weapon fighting
12th - Imp. Critical: Slashing
15th - Greater Two-weapon fighting
18th - Toughness (if human, hamstring or oversize two weapon fighting)

Alternatively, you can go with:

1st - Toughness (Human: Take Two-weapon fighting here as bonus feat and bump the chain down (ie khopesh at 3rd, etc)
3rd - Two-weapon fighting
6th - Exotic weapon proficiency: Khopesh
9th - Imp. Two-weapon fighting
12th - Imp. Critical: Slashing
15th - Greater Two-weapon fighting
18th - Power Attack (if human, hamstring or oversize two weapon fighting)

SKILLS

Skills actually have very little to do with dps, but are useful in many other situations, so it’s important to mention them. The skills I deem important are as follows:

Disable Device - you need to be able to disable traps, even as a dps rogue
Search - gotta find the trap before you can disable it
Spot - let’s you know when traps are near and lets you notice hidden enemies
Use Magic Device (UMD) - let’s use use scrolls, wands and items with racial/alignment restrictions
Open Lock - Gets you into places so you can do more dps
Diplomacy - let’s you drops aggro if you do happen to get it

Other skills that are useful but not neccessary

Bluff - allows you to single pull creatures from a group, good for soloing or in a cautious group
Jump - Very useful, but don’t put more than 20 points in it
Tumble - Put one point in it, more if you have extra
Balance - a rogue on his back does no dps
Haggle - selling for more and buying for less is good

Debatable skills:

Move Silently/Hide - Sneak is useful in many situations, but is it really worth taking the points from other skills? It’s debatable. Most times, having a +15 item will be enough. Only certain quests, like Claw of Vulkoor demand insane levels of Sneak. It’s usually easier just to use invis pots.

ENHANCEMENTS

Enhancements will really make or break a dps rogue. The wrong enhancements will mean significantly less dps.

What I recommend is:

Assassin I, II, III - each level of the prestige class gives you an addition 1d6 sneak attack damage. In addition, Assassin I gives poisons that, in addition to other effects, give a +20 to confirm crits while active. That’s great at low levels. Assassin II gives the assassinate ability for instant kills and Assassin III give vorpal effects on whatever weapons your weilding during a sneak attack.

Sneak Attack Accuracy - Maxed - hit more often with sneak attacks - always a good thing
Sneak Attack Training - Maxed - hit for more damage on sneak attacks - definately a good thing
Damage Boost - You need 2 to qualify for Assassin I, after that, don’t bother
Haste Boost - Maxed - hit more often and it stacks with other haste effects
Subtle Backstabbing - Maxed - keep the enemy on the tank, not on you so you can sneak attack more
Deadly Shadow - +2 INT, 4d6 sneak attack - what’s not to love

Use your other enhancements on racial toughness, ability score boosts, etc. Anything that improves survivability or dps is top priority.

GEAR

DDO really makes you gear dependant. Many builds you see posted on the forum are LARGELY gear dependant don’t shine nearly as brightly without things like Madstone boots, Titan’s Grip, etc.

Sadly, your rogue will be no different.

Low level gear - For low level gear, you won’t have many choices. Make sure you do all of the Korthos Island quests and get the set at the end of Misery’s Peak. I prefer the Pathfinder set because the +2 to hit bonus is better for a young rogue than the +1 to hit and +2 to damage on sneak attacks but choose as you see fit.

Keep you eyes open for weapons that you can use, especially khopeshs. Horde any khopeshes you find until you get the feat to allow you to use them. In the meantime, short sword, rapiers, maces and whatever else you can get your hands on will suffice. And because we have a low BAB (Base Attack Bonus) and will be dual weilding, choose weapons with higher base + values over weaposn with flashing effects. A +3 rapier will allow you to do more damage than a +1 flaming rapier because you will hit more often, which means more sneak attack... which is 2d6 + bonuses by now.

Next, run enough Durk’s Secret until you have two Muckbanes, a drop from a rare named ooze named.. Muck. These are great for bashing oozes and the occassional rust monster since they are immune to the corrosive effects of both.

You’re mainly looking for skill items for your spot/search/disable - usually goggles that you will swap out as needed - as well as high ability score bonus items. The Sharn Syndicate is a good series to run repeatedly for good items, as well as Chronosphere raid and the Tangleroot Gorge series whose end rewards are hard to beat at that level.

In addition, you’re looking for the best light armor you can find - probably studded leather or chain shirt. You also want to keep an eye out for light or medium fortification items to prevent critical hits on you. The Utility Vest in the Carnival series offers some nice bonuses for the level.

Also look into a few useful utility items: a feather fall item, an underwater action item and any invisibility potions or items you can find.

Medium Level gear - As you progress, more options will become available to you. Keep looking for STR items, items that have sneak attack on them (Ring of Venom, etc.). Gianthold and Orchard both have some good loot and the raids are nice... Madstone boots/Dreamspitter from Reavers and Litany from Ascension. The new Dromaar quests have some nice armor and weapons for level 12s. You can also begin running Titan’s (Seven Finger Gloves), Demon Queen (Chaosblade, etc.), and Vault of Night (Delving Suit, Boots, etc.) Also, get yourself a paralyzer as soon as possible for your offhand. Even though you don’t get sneak attaack when the enemies are paralyzed, they can’t attack YOU when they are paralyzed so you can beat on them unabashedly.

High Level Gear - High levels are where you become more and more gear dependant as bonuses begin to bottom out. Here is a list of the gear you want to acquire as soon as possible:

Vision of Destruction - Tharnes Goggles (and possibly Tharnes Bracers). Tharnes Goggles are arguably the best rogue goggles in the game. In addition ot bonsues to search and spot, you get true seeing and best of all +5 sneak attack (+5 to hit and +8 damage). That’s better than any epic goggles. With the set, you also get 20% threat reduction. If you need the extra threat reduction, consider them. They are otherwise a bit lackluster.

Reavers Refuge - Getting a suit of Dragontouched armor is definately a goal. The way you customize it is up to you and will depend largely on your other equipment. Many rogues like radiance guard because if they do get aggro, the enemy procs it, goes blind and if now sneak attackable.

Shroud - Once you start running shroud, you never stop. You can craft your weapons and items that are unparalleled by other gear. A few items I personally recommend:

Radiance II Khopesh - Positive/Fire/ Dual Shard Positive/Fire - This weapon is a game changer for rogues. Crit on an enemy and it blinds him - which means the sneak attack begin! A strong weapon in it’s own right, the radiance ability makes this a highly prized weapon for rogues.

Lightning II Khopesh - Positive/Air/Dual Shard Positive/Air - The lightning strike of this weapon adds a good amount of dps and procs fairly often. Dual wielding this with a Radiance II is a great combination for non-DR monsters.

Mineral II Khopeshes - Positive/Earth/ Dual Shard Positive/Earth - With a pair of these, you will get through any DR that does not involve a weapon type (pierce or blunt). Typically called boss beaters, these will allow you to deal death and destruction on nearly every boss.

HP Radiance or Smoke Item - Either cloak or helm iis a good place to make a HP item. By stacking teirs, you will get a total of +45 HP. Depending on how you craft it, it can also give you bonuses to DEX/STR or a combination of skills. I chose smoke for the miss chance and +6 to DEX skills. Others go radiance for the radiance guard.

+6 INT SKILL Item - Neg/Neg/Neg or Pos/Pos/Pos will give you a +6 stacking bonus to INT skills. Great for getting your skills high enough for Epics.

There are many more items you can make. Just remember to cleanse them so you can wear them at the same time.

Epic - Epic content is all about consolidating gear and getting the most you can out of what you have. Mostly, it’s a ton of farming. There are epic sets in Fens (Claw set), as well as Chrono (Bracers/Helm/Gloves) that add directly to dps, then things like Epic Utility Vest that help skills. You have to look and plan and decide what you want, then farm until you drop.

Also note, that in epics, statistically speaking, wielding two heavy picks for held mobs will do 30-50 points of damage more per swing against held mobs because of their x4 multiplier. Despite not being proficient, you should still be able to strike held mobs with them, even with the -4 and the damage they do is not insignificant. If you can’t make greensteel heavy picks, just hit the best set you can - I like metalline +5 heavy picks of maiming... since I’m autocritting anyway.

Just remember to swap them out when you’re done with the held mobs.

TACTICS

Aggro Management

You may have the most perfectly built dps rogue, but if you’re tanking - you’re subpar. Most of our damage comes from sneak attack, so it behooves us to sneak attack as much as possible. So how do we accomplish that?

First, let’s start by defining what qualifies as a sneak attack. Basically, whenever a mob is not targeting you, you can sneak attack it. In addition, anything that limits its ability to react to use can allow sneak attack - held, petrified, stunned, etc. all work but note tripped, paralyzed and several other conditions do NOT allow sneak attack otherwise every rogue would have a paralyzer in the off-hand.

Secondly, let’s talk about how to prevent aggro in the first place. The most basic technique is not to be the first one in the room. Let the tank go in first and get aggro from the enemies in the room, then choose the target that he is attacking and let loose. Once it’s dead, move on to the next target. This can be easily done by cycling through the enemies using tab until you find the one that’s damaged.

The next most important technique is reduction of aggro. The subtle backstabbing enhancement line will reduce up to 40% of aggro. Other items and sets will reduce it more. The Venom (Necklace/Ring) from Fens will reduce it 10% - the epic version 20%. Tharnes set (Goggle + Bracers/Reavers Armor) reduces it 20%, Treason from Reaver’s Fate reduce it to 80% of normal. There are others, but those are the most popular. Use these enhancements and sets. Despite some people beleiving that rogues are not dps, without my set bonus and subtle backstabbing on - I’ll steal aggro from all but the BEST tanks. So will you if you build your rogue right.

But what if you do get aggro? Or if you sneak in to assassinate the cleric or mage and get spotted? Luckily, there’s an app for that...er, a skill for that. Quickly switch to your diplomacy item and jab the diplomacy button. You may also need to swap to a CHA item as well. I keep diplo on my neck piece and cha on my ring so I can swap them quickly - at least, until epic, now they’re on one item. Provided you have maxed out diplomacy and have a skill enhancement item appropriate to your level, they will suddenly find you uninteresting for 6 seconds. That should be enough time for the tank to intimidate them and keep their aggro.

For boss fights, our position is BEHIND the boss. This is especially important if you are playing a halfling where you will need to be behind (flanking) to get your Guile bonus. The most important thing to remember is, when you’re behind the boss, you will take little to no damage except in specific situations - like Demon Queen where her tail will still trip you and then.... 6 blades of death come for you. It’s no fun to be rogue sushi, trust me.

If you find yourself with aggro in a boss fight, remember your diplomacy. And if that doesn’t work, stop attacking long enough for someone else to get aggro. If that doesn’t work, don’t worry... death removes all aggro.

CONCLUSION

A rogue is a complex class with many options, and there are many ways to play a rogue wrong. Hopefully, using this guide you will help you to become a useful, productive member of any group or raid and restore the good name of rogues everywhere... except tot he ladies... the bad boy image definately helps in the taverns.

[.Revenga.]

you should have kept it purely a str based guide,

your comparison with dex-based builds is inaccurate at best.

As for the str based guidance, nice overlook and good allround info.

[karl_k0ch]

Interesting that your rogues will not deal sneak attack damage, when it comes to comparing different weapons or builds. Maybe it's safer to assume that you have 100% fort and will do no critical hits as well?

Rogue 1 - DEX based
STR: 10 - +0
DEX: 18 - +4

Rogue 2 - STR Based
STR: 18 - +4
DEX: 10 - +0

Your second rogue is as gimp as a 10-Str-Finesse build. Try to get its Dex to 15, at least. This way you can also take the TWF chain. Also, you might want to pick up PA on the finesse rogue, starting with at least 12 Str.

Here’s my recommended builds:

28-pt Build
STR: 16
DEX: 15
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

regardless of race?

1st - Power Attack or Two-weapon fighting (Human: Take Toughness here as bonus feat)
3rd - Exotic weapon proficiency: Khopesh
6th - Two-weapon fighting or Power Attack
9th - Imp. Two-weapon fighting
12th - Imp. Critical: Slashing
15th - Greater Two-weapon fighting
18th - Toughness (if human, hamstring or oversize two weapon fighting)

Please do not take toughness at level 18, if you are playing a non-human race. It makes much more sense to delay PA until then; your to-hit will otherwise be an issue with a 3/4-bab-class and a non-maxed-to-hit-stat.

Only certain quests, like Claw of Vulkoor demand insane levels of Sneak. It’s usually easier just to use invis pots.

It's not a great deal to get your Hide/Sneak skills to a high level: 23 ranks + 2 luck +1 skill mastery + 15 item + 7 dex (with 24 dex, finesse builds will get more, ofc) + 6 gs = 54.

In a thread which was started by the OP, you can find the following:

We've (guildies and I) have ran this lots and it seems 55 Move Silently and 55 Hide are the numbers you want to hit.

That's not insanely high.

Also, get yourself a paralyzer as soon as possible for your offhand. Even though you don’t get sneak attaack when the enemies are paralyzed, they can’t attack YOU when they are paralyzed so you can beat on them unabashedly.

No Vorpal weapon in the main hand?

I like metalline +5 heavy picks of maiming... since I’m autocritting anyway.

I like a +5 Heavy pick of Seeker +10 in my offhand.

[Qezuzu]

DEX rogues with STR as a dump stat are gimps.

DEX based rogues that still make sure their STR is high aren't gimp, they're just not "max". You're giving up ~5 damage for "higher accuracy", even though STR is easier to get high (since Titan's Grip, Madstone, Rage only affect STR). It's perhaps better for beginner rogues, though, who won't have such gear.

All Rogues should have at least 15 starting DEX, 14 if you're TRing and have a +3 tome.

[DaSawks]

I want to thank you for putting the effort into this guide. Very informative. STR based Rogues are the king of Evasion DPS. As you may notice by my sig my Main Toon is a Rogue. I also recommend Maxing Skill Boost. Gives 5 points to all your skills. Very Valuable for UMD, Sneak, etc. A must. Flaming a post this long is easy to do. Of course there are always different ways to do the same things. Feat progression, skill points, Main stats etc. are subjective and fixable.

[Consumer]

I want to thank you for putting the effort into this guide. Very informative. STR based Rogues are the king of Evasion DPS. As you may notice by my sig my Main Toon is a Rogue. I also recommend Maxing Skill Boost. Gives 5 points to all your skills. Very Valuable for UMD, Sneak, etc. A must.

You don't have the ap on a DPS build and it is by no means a must.

[Qezuzu]

It's definetly not a must.

And I'm leaning towards humans as the "best" rogues. +1 to STR and CON, healing Amp, and Human versatility which can give +5 to damage AT THE SAME TIME as a haste boost.

Halflings have +8 from Guilde, but humans have +2 STR (7 difference), +1 STR from AP (6 difference perhaps), and higher burst DPS with the versatility. Not to mention Healing Amp (very nice for scrolls), 23 more skill points, and you're not so plain and cookie cutter. Also, +10 or +20 HP and teh extra feat.

Plus, Improved Uncanny dodge+Human Versatility (saves) for +11 burst to reflex saves could be great for Epic traps... just standing there as you disable...

[Soleran]

Good post, very informative.

I did have a question regarding the dps modal used though with the rapier vs khopesh regardless of the str or dex part. How much are the bursts affecting the damage output from either of those builds?

[Ookami007]

Good post, very informative.

I did have a question regarding the dps modal used though with the rapier vs khopesh regardless of the str or dex part. How much are the bursts affecting the damage output from either of those builds?

Burst damage is fairly consistant since you do 1d6 more burst damage on khopeshes and rapier burst 10% more.

[Ookami007]

Interesting that your rogues will not deal sneak attack damage, when it comes to comparing different weapons or builds. Maybe it's safer to assume that you have 100% fort and will do no critical hits as well?

I didn't want to make rapiers look completely gimp.

Sneak attack is consistant and isn't really a factor. Neither weapon will give you more or less sneak attack damage.

Assuming 100% fort and no critical hits doesn't give an accurate portrayal of the weapon comparison.

Your second rogue is as gimp as a 10-Str-Finesse build. Try to get its Dex to 15, at least. This way you can also take the TWF chain. Also, you might want to pick up PA on the finesse rogue, starting with at least 12 Str.

A simple scan down to the abilities section would have reassured you that I don't advocate 10 DEX and that all of the recommended builds have 15... I even explain why.

regardless of race?

Read the race sections... particularly the end of them.

Please do not take toughness at level 18, if you are playing a non-human race. It makes much more sense to delay PA until then; your to-hit will otherwise be an issue with a 3/4-bab-class and a non-maxed-to-hit-stat.

That is my fault, I do alot of feat swapping with my toons - normally I take toughness at first level.

It's not a great deal to get your Hide/Sneak skills to a high level: 23 ranks + 2 luck +1 skill mastery + 15 item + 7 dex (with 24 dex, finesse builds will get more, ofc) + 6 gs = 54.

As I mentioned, is it worth putting the points into for a few quests? Perhaps if you want to solo, but you can probably use those points in something more useful - balance, bluff, diplomacy.

In a thread which was started by the OP, you can find the following:

That's not insanely high.

Sneak is a combination of two skills - is sneaking really worth maxing two skills? Does it add to your dps?

No Vorpal weapon in the main hand?

You CAN go vorpal. At lower levels, Vorpal will be +1, so if you're having issues hitting, you want a weapon with a higher enhancement value.

I like a +5 Heavy pick of Seeker +10 in my offhand.

If you have one, use it!

[Ookami007]

DEX rogues with STR as a dump stat are gimps.

DEX based rogues that still make sure their STR is high aren't gimp, they're just not "max". You're giving up ~5 damage for "higher accuracy", even though STR is easier to get high (since Titan's Grip, Madstone, Rage only affect STR). It's perhaps better for beginner rogues, though, who won't have such gear.

All Rogues should have at least 15 starting DEX, 14 if you're TRing and have a +3 tome.

Agreed. If you look at all of the suggested builds, you'll see they all have a minimum of 15 DEX.

[EKKM]

Pretty good discussion. I don't agree with everything you wrote though. I'm not sure how you discuss strength based pure rogues and fail to mention the big f'n stck build. The addition to dex damage on Q-staffs for acrobats is pretty significant, it doesn't beat twf khopesh but it is still decent.

You omitted open lock from your discussion on skills.

[Ookami007]

you should have kept it purely a str based guide,

your comparison with dex-based builds is inaccurate at best.

As for the str based guidance, nice overlook and good allround info.

Can you explain exactly how it is inaccurate?

A DEX based build will never do as much damage as a STR based build. There are plenty of other comparisons out there that will tell you the same - if they're accurate.

Against no fort - STR based build wins.
Against med fort - STR based build wins.
Against 100% fort - STR based build wins.

Sorry... that's the reality of it. In some cases, it's not by much, but the STR build does always win.

[Ookami007]

Pretty good discussion. I don't agree with everything you wrote though. I'm not sure how you discuss strength based pure rogues and fail to mention the big f'n stck build. The addition to dex damage on Q-staffs for acrobats is pretty significant, it doesn't beat twf khopesh but it is still decent.

You omitted open lock from your discussion on skills.

Thanks for the catch on Open Locks... I could have sworn I put it in there.

As far as acrobat... even though DEX to damage is nice, as you pointed it out, it still doesn't touch a TWF build because of the amount of sneak attack that is lost.

As far as not agreeing with everything - it's a controversial subject and I expect that there will be a lot that people don't agree with. That's fine.

[Feithlin]

1st - Power Attack or Two-weapon fighting (Human: Take Toughness here as bonus feat)
3rd - Exotic weapon proficiency: Khopesh
6th - Two-weapon fighting or Power Attack
9th - Imp. Two-weapon fighting
12th - Imp. Critical: Slashing
15th - Greater Two-weapon fighting
18th - Toughness (if human, hamstring or oversize two weapon fighting)

That's for a khopesh user. Human should take Quick draw to get more benefit from his haste boosts.
For a rapier user:

1st - Toughness (free cookie for a human, nothing absolutely necessary)
3rd - TWF
6th - PA or Quick draw / PL: Rogue if reincarnating
9th - iTWF
12th - IC: Piercing
15th - gTWF
18th - Quick draw or PA / PA

If using rapiers, try to get as quickly as possible rapiers with special effects to benefit from the higher crit range: banishers (very handy in the vale), wounding of puncturing (at 0 con your SA starts applying), weakening of enfeebling (very handy on bh and very powerfull if coupled with crippling strike; again, at 0 str, your SA applies), smiting (constructs are immune to SA but at least you get a chance to destroy them).
You can still use vorp without prob because vorpal is on a '20' (i.e. you won't be hurt by not having IC: slashing).

Edit: on a TR, a human should take Quick draw for his free feat.
2nd edit: a non TR human using rapiers could take TWF at level 1 and get oTWF at level 3 for a slight bonus to hit.

[karl_k0ch]

Sneak attack is consistant and isn't really a factor. Neither weapon will give you more or less sneak attack damage.

But it will close the gap between those two weapons to at least 5% DPS difference. Is this worth a feat on every build? The same convergence will happen when you compare Str and Dex btw.

Assuming 100% fort and no critical hits doesn't give an accurate portrayal of the weapon comparison.

Not factoring in sneak attacks will also not give an accurate portrayal of the weapon comparison. Your comparison makes it look like a Khopesh is about 10% ahead of Rapier, where in fact the difference is less than half of this.


A simple scan down to the abilities section would have reassured you that I don't advocate 10 DEX and that all of the recommended builds have 15... I even explain why.

Then the question is: Why do you make the comparison with non-realistic values?


Read the race sections... particularly the end of them.

I did that before. However, I think it would add clarity that you are referring to a sample human 28pt stat breakdown. You are also missing 28pt Halfling in the race section.

Comments in orange.

[Feithlin]

Alternatively, you can go with:

1st - Toughness (Human: Take Two-weapon fighting here as bonus feat and bump the chain down (ie khopesh at 3rd, etc)
3rd - Two-weapon fighting
6th - Exotic weapon proficiency: Khopesh
9th - Imp. Two-weapon fighting
12th - Imp. Critical: Slashing
15th - Greater Two-weapon fighting
18th - Power Attack (if human, hamstring or oversize two weapon fighting)

On a human, you won't be able to take iTWF at level 6, so you can't just dump the chain down. See my previous post for a human and put khopesh as the free cookie if you want to use khopeshes.

[karnokvolrath]

All str/dex debate aside, its still a solid guide on most points.

Would be very helpful to a new player just to get a feel of what they sould be looking for.

+1

[bandyman1]

This guide would have been fine...

Until you fell into the same pattern of illustrating that a Dex-based rogue is starting with a 10 Str, and that a Str-based rogue is starting with an 18.

Seriously; You might have named the thread " This is why my Str-based rogue is soo much better than a Dex-based rogue rolled by Joe-Bob the KorthosNoob ".

I loled.

[Feithlin]

As a side note, Quick draw makes you gain 0.6 s dps with each haste boost. The dps profit (considering SA on these hits) put rapiers very close to khopeshes. With PL: Rogue, rapiers result in a higher dps than khopeshes without PL.