Elf Displacement Warrior - Fighter 12 Pally 6 Monk 2

[voodoogroves]

Exactly.

Useful advice: "Once you can replace them with clickies you may want to swap them out"

Not so useful advice: "I'd never do anything if there is one day an eventual clickie you can use for it"



When I had just started it used to burn me up to hear folks say "don't do that, just buy a 100 stack of potions". There was a time when we couldn't do that. There was a time I couldn't throw a stack of teleport scrolls on all of my toons because I'm too lazy to walk.

Some things work better early in a player or toon's lifespan, while there may be different options available later. Displacement is goodness.

[EKKM]

Why spend multiple feats for limited-use dragonmark displacement when you could instead have access (with a little plat) to a limitless supply of displacements via UMD? Not to mention unlimited Raise Deads, Stoneskins, Monster Summons, Fire-Arrow Summons, Teleports, Greater Heroisms, Restorations, Heal/Reconstruct Scrolls and more? And it will synergize very well with your moderate/high Charisma score (UMD is Charisma-based skill).

The main reason is the very short duration of displcaement scrolls. the DMs are based on character level, not the level 5 caster level of the scroll. Yes UMD is a great skill, I have it on several of my characters.

I don't have it on my Shadowbalde though. I made mine as a ranger with the idea that it was for soloing and shortmanning quests. Consequently, it is not a min-maxed build.

Elf Ranger 16/2 fighter/2monk

S 16 - level ups here
D 16
C 14
I 8
W 14
Ch 8

Feats - 7 base, 2 fighter, 2 monk
Dodge
Mobility
Spring attack
Least DM
Lesser DM
Power attack
IC pierce (rapiers)
Toughness
Extend
Maximize (for heals)
Dont know for the last one, considering OTWF, Greater DM, stunning blow

Skills; hide, MS, jump, tumble, balance, spot

I'm considering changing to 18 ranger/2 monk when I get closer to cap but I would have to drop extend and maximize to do so.

[peterfrosty42]

Yes...the scroll is short duration. But it’s plenty long enough to trigger on your way into the fight, and be covered for the first 25 seconds of any encounter. And as I outlined, there’s PLENTY of other benefits to UMD (which your surely know, having a UMD toon). Ymmv

Regarding scroll DCs - none of the scrolls I outlined (Raise Deads, Stoneskins, Monster Summons, Fire-Arrow Summons, Teleports, Greater Heroisms, Restorations, Heal, Reconstruct) need a DC roll. Not sure what your mean here EK.

[unbongwah]

This build gets enough feats to have his cake and eat it too: i.e., rogue 2 / paladin 6 / ftr 12 with DMs. Just drop a couple of the less important feats: e.g., OTWF & GWF (not a GWS or Kensai II pre-req). Free Displacement from lvl 6 on and full UMD? I call that a win. Just needs to make sure he has enough skill pts to max UMD (and possibly Intim).

[Thrudh]

Yes...the scroll is short duration. But it’s plenty long enough to trigger on your way into the fight, and be covered for the first 25 seconds of any encounter. And as I outlined, there’s PLENTY of other benefits to UMD (which your surely know, having a UMD toon). Ymmv

Regarding scroll DCs - none of the scrolls I outlined (Raise Deads, Stoneskins, Monster Summons, Fire-Arrow Summons, Teleports, Greater Heroisms, Restorations, Heal, Reconstruct) need a DC roll. Not sure what your mean here EK.

How much UMD does he need to cast a displacement scroll? What level will he hit no-fail?

Self-cast displacement from level 6 on is SWEET...

Displacement is the whole point of rolling up a elf melee. And he has plenty of feats to afford it.

[peterfrosty42]

Needs a total of 27 UMD to no-fail a displacement scroll; should be able to hit by level 9

At level 9, this build (if he splashed rogue)
12 (4 at start, 8 leveling)
5 (from cha; starts at 14, 2 tome, +4 item = 20)
2 (heroism)
2 (skill boost)
3 umd feat (he’s got plenty of feats)
3 (competence bonus from delara’s cartouche)

That’s 27; he could even cast stoneskin on himself at level 9 with %80 success rate. And it only gets MUCH easier from there, with continued investments in the skill, access to greater heroism, GS items, etc...

You may look at things differently than I, but I make absolutely NO perminant decisions regarding any builds due to its performance at a measly level 6. You're only there for a short time...

[Thrudh]

Needs a total of 27 UMD to no-fail a displacement scroll; should be able to hit by level 9

At level 9, this build (if he splashed rogue)
12 (4 at start, 8 leveling)
5 (from cha; starts at 14, 2 tome, +4 item = 20)
2 (heroism)
2 (skill boost)
3 umd feat (he’s got plenty of feats)
3 (competence bonus from delara’s cartouche)

That’s 27; he could even cast stoneskin on himself at level 9 with %80 success rate. And it only gets MUCH easier from there, with continued investments in the skill, access to greater heroism, GS items, etc...

You may look at things differently than I, but I make absolutely NO perminant decisions regarding any builds due to its performance at a measly level 6. You're only there for a short time...

LOL... We're talking about a new character... possible he has older characters to pass down a +2 tome... but not guarenteed... GS items later?? He won't have a +6 CHA skill GS item until he's 20...

2 skill boost??? for a 30 second scroll?? Sorry, that's not to going to work for very long...

You'll be lucky to use those crappy scrolls before level 13... and you're spending a feat on Skill Focus: UMD...

Displacement feat is the way to go here, and then swap them out in 9 months when you finally have some Shroud displacement clickables (or more likely, TR and build the whole thing differently).

Once again... Try to put yourself in a new character/player's shoes... There are no +2 tomes in level 9 quests.... New characters are building GS weapons and hp items before they start screwing around with displacement clickables and +6 CHA skill items. Those kind of items don't appear until a character has been 20 for a couple of months.

[Thrudh]

nm

[peterfrosty42]

Look...you asked when he could no-fail them; I outlined the earliest he could no-fail. My point is that obviously, it’ll get much easier with a few more levels and a bit better gear. However, making ANY build decisions on one’s performance between 6 and 13 is just plain stupid. And under no circumstances would one need a +6 CHA skill GS item to cast these scrolls (displacement, specifically), so I’ve no idea why you continually harp on this point.

Yes, he’d be spending a single feat on UMD; or spending multiple feats on dragonmarks for a limited number of displacements. And taking a UMD feat opens up MUCH MORE utility from scrolls/wands as one levels.

And again, I am "in the players shoes". I have direct experience with these 12figher/6paladin/2x builds. I have a 12fighter/6paladin/2rogue. He’s looking to build a 12fighter/6paladin/2monk. The only difference is the monk vs rogue levels. He takes 2 monk levels for the extra feats to get the less-than-worthy dragonmarks. I took 2 rogue levels for UMD.

And for that comparison, I simply cannot imagine trading the utility that UMD provided me while leveling, for limited uses of displacements. Seems like trading my Porsche for a donkey...and pretending the donkey gives me easier leveling capabilities. Ymmv...

To the OP -- View a build from an end-game perspective. Take a look at the complete list of arcane and divine scrolls available, from level 1 to level 7. Envision that your FIGHTER (fighters normally have very little utility) can eventually cast ANY of them, with ZERO chance of failing. And then compare that to limited usages of displacements you get for burning multiple feats on dragonmarks. Your FIGHTER could eventually scroll out Raise dead (or even Resurrection), Summon Monster 7, Teleport and Group Teleport, Dimension Door, Restoration and Greater Restoration, Heals, Reconstructs, Stoneskin, Blur, Displacement and much more, if you take rogue rather than monk.

Or...you could have the underwhelming ability to displace yourself a few times per rest. For me, the choice was obvious. Again, ymmv...

[Thrudh]

Look...you asked when he could no-fail them; I outlined the earliest he could no-fail. My point is that obviously, it’ll get much easier with a few more levels and a bit better gear. However, making ANY build decisions on one’s performance between 6 and 13 is just plain stupid. And under no circumstances would one need a +6 CHA skill GS item to cast these scrolls (displacement, specifically), so I’ve no idea why you continually harp on this point.

Yes, he’d be spending a single feat on UMD; or spending multiple feats on dragonmarks for a limited number of displacements. And taking a UMD feat opens up MUCH MORE utility from scrolls/wands as one levels.

And again, I am "in the players shoes". I have direct experience with these 12figher/6paladin/2x builds. I have a 12fighter/6paladin/2rogue. He’s looking to build a 12fighter/6paladin/2monk. The only difference is the monk vs rogue levels. He takes 2 monk levels for the extra feats to get the less-than-worthy dragonmarks. I took 2 rogue levels for UMD.

And for that comparison, I simply cannot imagine trading the utility that UMD provided me while leveling, for limited uses of displacements. Seems like trading my Porsche for a donkey...and pretending the donkey gives me easier leveling capabilities. Ymmv...

To the OP -- View a build from an end-game perspective. Take a look at the complete list of arcane and divine scrolls available, from level 1 to level 7. Envision that your FIGHTER (fighters normally have very little utility) can eventually cast ANY of them, with ZERO chance of failing. And then compare that to limited usages of displacements you get for burning multiple feats on dragonmarks. Your FIGHTER could eventually scroll out Raise dead (or even Resurrection), Summon Monster 7, Teleport and Group Teleport, Dimension Door, Restoration and Greater Restoration, Heals, Reconstructs, Stoneskin, Blur, Displacement and much more, if you take rogue rather than monk.

Or...you could have the underwhelming ability to displace yourself a few times per rest. For me, the choice was obvious. Again, ymmv...

Check out the following quote from the OP

I've been away from the game for a LONG time (back when it was still subscription only) and I'm coming back to give it another try.

Don't be telling him how to build for end-game... UMD on a melee character does not become useful until late in the game... He's not going to be streaking towards end-game... He's new again.

underwhelming ability to displace yourself

Self-cast Displacement in the mid-game is HUGE... A ton more useful than a middling UMD skill... The dragonmarks last a long time, and they cannot be interrupted (very important when you're surprised and suddenly surrounded by 6 mobs - pulling out a scroll at that point is probably death)

The only reason to go elf on a melee is for the dragonmarks... They are extremely powerful defensively.

Now, all that said... I agree with you... In the long long run, UMD is the better choice (I still would never scroll displacement - and believe me I tried for a while).

But for a new character, with little gear, and tons of feats, the first two elf dragonmarks are very solid choices... And with re-incarnation he can always switch to rogue later...

[Noctus]

I know it's a bit of a flavor build but I'd like get some feedback if anyone has some thoughts

Good survival build (without going the AC route, which has (huge) isues of its own).

Self-Displacement is very good. Its not all about that you can, but much more about how long it lasts. 30secs scrols pale to 4min clicky, you loose to much actiontime and thus DPS when you try to keep up displacement with scrolls. When you fiddle around with your scrollstack your not fighting.

Especially when its extended for no further cost, except the Extend feat itself. - the dragonmarks are very usefull , and go down to "just" usefull once you have run shroud so many times you lost count and can start crafting clickys. Which is a veeeeeeeeery long run for a new player.

[peterfrosty42]

Don't be telling him how to build for end-game... UMD on a melee character does not become useful until late in the game... He's not going to be streaking towards end-game... He's new again.

I disagree - By mid levels, I was actively using blurs, displacements and stoneskins (and any other tier 4 and lower divine/arcane scroll I wanted), with but %10 to %20 chance to fail on stoneskins (which you’re not casting mid-fight anyway). Many bells/whistles I had. And Raise Dead (even at only %60 to %80 success chance) sure came in handy on many many occasions. There are many scrolls a UMDer has at his disposal, even at “mid-game”. One doesn’t need no-fail state to have the spells be useful pre/post encounter

Yes, it gets more useful “late in the game”, but to say UMD isn’t useful mid-game is misrepresenting the truth. He’s got decent CHA from leveraging Paladin, which helps a lot.

Self-cast Displacement in the mid-game is HUGE... A ton more useful than a middling UMD skill... The dragonmarks last a long time, and they cannot be interrupted (very important when you're surprised and suddenly surrounded by 6 mobs - pulling out a scroll at that point is probably death)

I’m sure it is, indeed, "HUGE" at “mid-game”. But just to be clear, by “mid-game”, you mean that phase that passes relatively quickly, nobody spends much play-time in, and everyone is just trying to get over with? That “mid-game”…? And he’s only been gone around a year...that’s not “new again”, nor does it mean there will be no “streaking”

If the OP’s intent is to level no higher than 14, you’re advice is solid. But if the OP is actually going to play DDO, making lasting build decisions dependent upon what is “HUGE” at transient “mid-game” is just downright stupid. Unless “mid-game” is where you’re stopping leveling. Ymmv…

Specific to displacement scrolls (which by no means is all UMD can do) -- I still use displacement scrolls at level 20, when the arcane isn’t available or isn’t doing his/her job. I’ve got it quick-keyed, and pop it on the way into an encounter, and have at least 20 seconds of displacement to deal with the current situation. I’ve seen it work well (1st hand experience), on many many many occasions. Sure, not as good as 2 min clicky (4 with yet another feat investment), but I’ll take the full UMD toolkit each and every time.

Also - An arcane isn’t always available, and many find ourselves in less-than-perfect groups without an arcane. Can the dragonmark paint constant displacements on the cleric that just got agro? Or the raging barb as he’s heading through the door to a rough encounter? Or the rogue that just got agro and is about to die? Or the "off-tank" thats tanking while the group clears things up...? UMD can...and well before “mid-game”.

And since when does the mere fact of being a “new player” inherently mean a person shouldn’t be properly planning the toon for its life after “mid-game”? For many, “mid-game” consists of a mere %10 of a toons hours played...

Again, ymmv

And with re-incarnation he can always switch to rogue later...

This is extremely bad advice, unless the OP has $40 to spend on two +3 heartwoods. Reincarnating multiclasses becomes tricky, specifically regarding 3-class multiclasses. Best served as an example -

Let’s say he took monk at level 1 (for more skill points), mixes of fighter/paladin through level 9, and another monk level at 10 (for example). A reincarnation won’t let him switch to rogue at level 1, as DDO views that as being 4-class multiclass. He’d need switch monk to either fighter or paladin at level 1, and switch to rogue ONLY AFTER all monk levels are removed. He’d actually need two of the most expensive reincarnations (+3 heartwoods) to properly remove the monk levels and replace them with rogue levels.

But hey...we all have different play styles. If you want to spend 3 feats for limited self-only displacements rather than 1 feat for the entire toolkit that is UMD, it’s your toon. Rock on.

[unbongwah]

I don't know why you two are still insisting he can't have full UMD and the Dragonmarks. As I already said, rogue 2 / paladin 6 / ftr 12 gets 14 feats (7 regular, 7 ftr), which is more than enough: 2 for Least & Lesser DM; 3 for TWF chain; 3 for Kensai II pre-reqs; Toughness; Imp Crit Slash; PA; that leaves 3 left for, say, Extend, khopesh, and Greater DM (or OTWF or Quick Draw or FoP). The real issue is stat pts, IMHO; making sure he has enough INT for UMD and whatever other skill(s) the OP wants on top of everything else is tricky, but still doable. EDIT: especially since OP seems to have given up on AC, which means no need for CE (1 less feat) and doesn't care about monk WIS AC bonus.

[Mangloid]

You might want to take a look at two builds I posted back in August when i was going to TR.

One is a 12 ftr/6 pally/2 monk Human and the other is a 12 ranger/6pally/2monk Human. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=269192

I'd really suggest human, unless you're just really going elf for the flavor of being an elf. The benefits and enhancements work much better than those available to the elf.

[Thrudh]

I’m sure it is, indeed, "HUGE" at “mid-game”. But just to be clear, by “mid-game”, you mean that phase that passes relatively quickly, nobody spends much play-time in, and everyone is just trying to get over with? That “mid-game”…?

You'd be surprised how long most players take to level... I think the vets who zoom back to 20 in 2 weeks are in the less than 2% of the players minority. We should be careful giving advice here assuming everyone on the forums is a powergamer

And he’s only been gone around a year...that’s not “new again”, nor does it mean there will be no “streaking”

True, maybe he is going to skip all the new interesting mid-level quests that only give so-so exp and instead he'll farm VON3 and Shadow crypt and Wiz King 10 times each and skip right past all that... That's certainly possible..

Specific to displacement scrolls (which by no means is all UMD can do) -- I still use displacement scrolls at level 20, when the arcane isn’t available or isn’t doing his/her job. I’ve got it quick-keyed, and pop it on the way into an encounter, and have at least 20 seconds of displacement to deal with the current situation. I’ve seen it work well (1st hand experience), on many many many occasions. Sure, not as good as 2 min clicky (4 with yet another feat investment), but I’ll take the full UMD toolkit each and every time.

I hear you... Of course, you know every quest by heart, being a vet... so you can pop off a scroll before the encounter... For new players, pulling out a scroll after being ambushed isn't going to be effective, while a hot-keyed dragonmark can't be interrupted by a concentration check...

I'm just asking you to keep in the mind the difference between a new player and a vet...

Also - An arcane isn’t always available, and many find ourselves in less-than-perfect groups without an arcane. Can the dragonmark paint constant displacements on the cleric that just got agro? Or the raging barb as he’s heading through the door to a rough encounter? Or the rogue that just got agro and is about to die? Or the "off-tank" thats tanking while the group clears things up...? UMD can...and well before “mid-game”.

Okay, now you're exaggerating... You're not displacing everyone with a 30 second scroll that has a 6 second cool-down... The guy with displacement dragonmarks has a better chance of doing that (for one battle) than you.

Your UMD arguments are good... raise dead, stone-skin, restoration... all good points... but don't tell me you're displacing the whole group off of scrolls.

And since when does the mere fact of being a “new player” inherently mean a person shouldn’t be properly planning the toon for its life after “mid-game”? For many, “mid-game” consists of a mere %10 of a toons hours played...

Displacement dragonmarks are valuable at end-game as well (as you well know, since you keep yourself displaced with scrolls at 20). My point about mid-game is that getting the UMD to scroll effectively doesn't happen until late game... My point was that you can have displacement at level 6 onwards... which is very useful for a new player.

This is extremely bad advice

I disagree... obviously...

But hey...we all have different play styles. If you want to spend 3 feats for limited self-only displacements rather than 1 feat for the entire toolkit that is UMD, it’s your toon. Rock on.

You're right, it's a choice... My goal is to lay out all the pros and cons of both choices, not just dismiss one as stupid without comparing the two fully. Note that it's not a comparison between 3 feats and 1 feat... the number of feats used is exactly the same... If you go rogue, you lose the two monk bonus feats, so either path, you're out 3 feats

I agree with you that UMD is very powerful... but not until late in the game... Displacement is extremely powerful defensively, throughout the ENTIRE game... Every melee wants it cast on him before all big battles. Getting it at 6th level is a serious help for any player...

I think you are giving advice solely from your own perspective, and have forgotten what it is like to be a new player...

New players don't need to make perfect builds... Your first build wasn't perfect... I took a ranger level on my first fighter back in the day just to be able to use cure wands on myself and others... Is that optimal from an end-game perspective? No! But it made the MONTHS I spent playing the lower levels much easier and more enjoyable...

I couldn't afford 100 stacks of cure serious potions... Wands are much more affordable.

There is nothing wrong with elf melee flavor build... A standard UMD character is probably a better choice, in the long run... But an elf melee with displacement dragonmarks is not a BAD choice... It will work well... The displacment dragonmarks are useful. It can be a solid character.

[Thrudh]

One last thing... since we're talking about the "long run", UMD isn't all that great anymore... Almost everything you can do with UMD, you can get a clicky for it...

Teleport
Greater Heroism
Raise Dead
Stoneskin
Displacement
Heal (Silver flame potion)

About the only thing that's hard to get in clickable form is Restoration (I should have stocked up during the Mabar event)