Bard PrEs Playing Nice Together.

[TheDearLeader]

First, some background.
My Bard is Hobadash, in Eternal Wrath on Sarlona. I created him in July, leveled him with a group of TRs (they loved it! ). I then TRed him about a week after Update 8 dropped, after I’d had some time to play with the changes to the Spellsinger PrE and kind of know what was coming at me.
I have:

• Level 18, banking 19, 200k from cap.
• Spellsinger II
• Lingering Song IV (Inspire Courage now @ 7:12)
• Inspired Attack II
• Inspired Damage III

So that’s me so far. A CC Spellsinger Bard who has maxed his durations and damage song, and makes sure the other casters feel the SP regen love. My Inspire Attack is II out of III, so it’s not like it can get much higher.

With this in mind, my current problem is when I have other bards in party of different PrEs, I notice the following:
Warchanter (Normally the splash builds, so they have on average 14 levels of Bard to my 18.)

I do all the Spell-related songs that I feel like doing. I buff. I buff some more. I make sure there’s no one that might actually benefit from Inspire Heroics. I wait. I wait a little bit more. Then, after waiting and not getting anything else, I toss Inspire Courage. 7:12 Duration, with most the buffs available to me.

Suddenly, the Warchanter remembers what his job is. He’ll toss out Inspire Courage, and Inspire Greatness. His songs trump mine by (I think?) +1/+1, so they take priority. My buff is removed from everyone’s bar, his replaces it. Only problem is, his duration is somewhere around 4:10 or something, and when his runs out, mine does not come back. Its tune has been erased from existence. If I re-sing during his song, the song is still wasted.

So I have to wait for the Warchanter’s song to be completely done. And then I wait. And I wait. 30 or so seconds or pass without an Inspire Courage, so I’m like “Well, my song is certainly better than no song.” I sing again. Again, suddenly the Warchanter puts his greataxe away long enough to remember that he has a Lute. There’s another song wasted.

These same Warchanters will also blow 3/4 of their SP bar giving people non-extended Blurs and GHs (14~16 minute duration). Keep in mind that prior to them hitting a single buff, I’ve already hit them with extended Blur, GH, and FOM (36 minute duration, 38 minutes if I decided to use Arcane Heightening first). I start with said Warchanter as a way of communicating the obvious : I have more SP, I have longer durations, I’ll handle the spell-based buffs. Nevertheless, I watch the Warchanter hit the people I’ve yet to hit in the party with said buffs, and his blue bar whittle away.

And let’s not forget the most fun part of having Warchanters around : Inspire Recklessness. Extra Killamajig powah!...as long as you don’t mind a critical hit every nows and then. I do not debate the usefulness of this song. It’s great, really is. At the same time, it is dangerous when used inappropriately. I’ve seen Warchanters wear 0% Fortification, just because their song would take away 10% if they were wearing Heavy Fort. I’ve seen Warchanters singing this song without announcing it, and without telling people how to undo its effects (no reason for a pure healer/caster to lose fortification. And honestly, at 390 HP *with* ship buff + Rage, I don’t really want to get crit hit, either), and singing it while in the middle of combat.
I’m talking in the middle of Sins of Attrition Elite, the devils cleaving away. I’m talking while there is trash out in VoD Elite, and the choice is between continuing to heal/clear trash, or stop long enough to toggle/untoggle the stupid Defensive Fighting button. These same Bards can’t manage to hit their Inspire Courage before the Spellsinger reminds them of the notes, but they can manage to Inspire some Recklessness at the exact most inopportune times. I can’t wait until I see one of these guys toss one out in the middle of Epic Lailat wailing on us.


Ahh… but I’ve been downing the poor Axe-Singers too much, haven’t I? Virtuosos, hold on to your mascara, because I’m not happy with you, either.

Typical scenario when partying with a Virtuoso. We’re at the party buff stage again, and I toss all the normal stuff. Spellsong Trance, then spell-based buffs, maybe Inspire Heroics for the monk. Wait until everything else seems to be covered. There’s been no Inspire Courage handed out. In fact, I’m not sure what the Virtuoso’s sung yet… are they worried about running out of songs or something? Whatever. I toss out Inspire Courage, Haste + Rage, and we go. I begin to toss out Spellsong Vigors on the fly. To the healer, to the arcane, to the Virtuoso, and normally to myself last. I’m now down 6 songs. We get to the first combat of the dungeon, which is probably two mobs that cause us a collective 10 HP of damage before they do… and there it goes. Sustaining Song.

Yes, Sustaining Song. The Song that is AoE, and slowly bestows a regenerative HP effect to all allied targets who have heard the song. Again, not a bad song, sounds great. Sounds great… when you’re playing solo bard in the party. When in a duet with a Spellsinger, however? Horrible idea.

Maybe this is also a PSA of sorts : Sustaining Song’s AoE effect removes the effects of Spellsong Vigor. From everybody. Poof, gone. So that’s currently 236 spell points that 4 party members, including the Virtuoso, lost out on because of their song effect. That’s a Greater Pot, or maybe a low-end Major/Bauble. Maybe it doesn’t seem like a lot, but it adds up over time. Not to mention that 236 x 4 = 944, which starts to sound like a much nastier number of SP to lose. It is also important to note that if there’s already a Cleric/FvS healer type in the party, they are likely to over-heal the majority of the party even with all of their metas turned over. So, the song is not just redundant, but it debuffs.

The worst are the repeat offenders, who are told what it does, and still continue to sing their Sustaining Songs. Despite having more songs, and having increased capability of song regeneration, I end up doing the Inspire Courages, and then losing 4-8 songs per rest due to Sustaining Song’s intervention. I also end up doing the SP-based buffs, which is fine… provided I can use my Spellsong Vigor to slowly charge myself up.

To Sum this up:

Warchanters of the world (Let’s hope this is just a local-to-Sarlona issue):

1. Use your Inspire Courage. If someone beats you to it because you’ve tossed Haste, Rage, and are still standing there like a moron, then just let their song stand.
2. If you use Inspire Courage, toss another one when yours is about to run out. Somewhere around the 15 seconds remaining mark is good. Don’t wait more than half a minute of combat time later to sing it; I will beat you to it, and refer you back to rule 1.
3. If you sing Inspire Recklessness, a buff that is also a debuff at the same time, it is your responsibility to A. Inform the Party, B. Inform them how to remove it where necessary, and C. Sing it at any time but the worst time.
4. If there’s someone else around to handle the SP-based buffs, let them do it. If they specifically ask you for it, cool. This rule goes double if you don’t have Extend Spell for some reason.
5. Get 100% Fortification. Heck, if you really want to be better than your peers, find an armor with a Medium Guild Augment Slot. Slot it with the +15% Fortification buff. Enjoy having 105% fortification, even after you’ve sung your fancy song.

Virtuosos, if in party with a Spellsinger:

1. Sing Inspire Courage. Yours is likely similar to theirs, but of longer duration. You have more songs, your songs regen without the necessity for an Elyd Edge off-hand thing going on.
2. Don’t sing Sustaining Song. Instead, take the spell points you get back from Spellsong Vigor, toss a Mass Cure Mod. Even with just Potency, that should be worth about 5~6 ticks of what Sustaining song would have given people. Or, if there’s a healer-type around, let them do their job between the Blade Barriers and Cometfalls.

I like Bards. I want to start seeing more parties that accept more than 1 Bard, especially for higher-end raid stuff. But the first step to seeing this come to realization is Bards working together. So, let’s support each other’s strengths, and show how useful the combinations of the PrEs can really be.

[timetorun177]

Great Post.

[Dragaer]

To Sum this up:

Warchanters of the world (Let’s hope this is just a local-to-Sarlona issue):

1. Use your Inspire Courage. If someone beats you to it because you’ve tossed Haste, Rage, and are still standing there like a moron, then just let their song stand.
2. If you use Inspire Courage, toss another one when yours is about to run out. Somewhere around the 15 seconds remaining mark is good. Don’t wait more than half a minute of combat time later to sing it; I will beat you to it, and refer you back to rule 1.
3. If you sing Inspire Recklessness, a buff that is also a debuff at the same time, it is your responsibility to A. Inform the Party, B. Inform them how to remove it where necessary, and C. Sing it at any time but the worst time.
4. If there’s someone else around to handle the SP-based buffs, let them do it. If they specifically ask you for it, cool. This rule goes double if you don’t have Extend Spell for some reason.
5. Get 100% Fortification. Heck, if you really want to be better than your peers, find an armor with a Medium Guild Augment Slot. Slot it with the +15% Fortification buff. Enjoy having 105% fortification, even after you’ve sung your fancy song.

A reply from a Warchanter
Understand your frustration and alot of what you say makes sense. But let me argue for a minute. If a spellsinger sings the inspire courage and greatness before mine, I will still sing. Why? It is better for the party.

Stupid people do stupid things, there is nothing you can do about it except try not to group with them again. If the warchanter doesn't keep up with his songs he's an idiot, or just needs to learn more. Sing yours if they run out if the warchanter isn't doing it and don't gripe if he suddenly remembers and re-sings his.

As for the rest of your gripes not much to argue with. I will say don't worry about the warchanter's blue bar. If he/she is wasting it oh well. Stupid people do stupid things.

[D-molisher]

/ not signed ...

Because the heroism song isnt adding more hp / low duration.
The Inspire reclesness, buggs any undead casters healing, so all update 8 songs for WC is bugged !!!
Besides that their sonic spells is soo useless & well any caster got way higher dc for anyhing exept fascinate.
So why even bother for spells, just give em bufs song / you basicly made em a wimpy version off any caster / healer char class.

That soo suxxx, could you plz make their sonic spells worth any, or add some worthwhile songs - for actually doing dmg exept weapons ( if WC ).

I like bards, but like monks and some other classes, i doubt DEV play em / or really try use em for any worth while solo things.

Well this is only one off many issues with DDO, i like it alot.
But soo much stuff need some DEV love / or just forget it & make DDO2. Worth the stuff needed.
Make ddo worthwhile waiting for DDO2.
And do take your time, i dont care if it takes years after date set. Dont rush DDO2 - for any course - not even WB.
Honestly rhis game rocks mostly cause off the combat system & the super quests.
P.S the raids sooo suxxx, honestly only 3 raids are a challenge, rest are just 2 man raids modded with 10 more for droprate. Why the ... that . ( insert foul language ).

P.S not like i do know bards, myddo Troubadix ( 20 & solo epic build ), if it works. Ya i hate myddo & like making it not work.

P.P.S Made a test char for TR off troubadix ( wixen ) shes funn, but why dont bards have any good spells for dmg. Do you really have to be DPS ??? This game is soo focused on DPS it kind a suxx for an old D&D support player PnP.
Ya started PnP in 84�*sh - thats when commodore 64 was ûber & eye off the beholder rocked my universe. Or for new peops, thats when i had to wait 10 weeks for my rule books off dungeon & dragons from US - getting throug Danish customs.

[TheDearLeader]

A reply from a Warchanter
Understand your frustration and alot of what you say makes sense. But let me argue for a minute. If a spellsinger sings the inspire courage and greatness before mine, I will still sing. Why? It is better for the party.

I respectfully disagree.

The Inspire Courage is better.. for Four minutes. The Inspire Courage is better... if sung consistently.

If a Warchanter sings in a timely manner, I have no complaints. I will save my songs for Vigors, Trances, and Heightenings, as well as all other manner of song I can provide to the group. That's working together.

But if the Warchanter seems to forget songs until they've already been sung? Well then, we're collectively down two songs where there could have only been one. And I sure don't know a lot of Warchanters that keep Elyd Edge equipped to regen those songs.

Again, as said, it may just be Sarlona. It may be the fact that I'm often up late, and run a lot with our Guo Ren friends, and we have some communication issues. It may even be that because of the new PrE changes, and new races, people are trying new builds, and therefore we're seeing an influx of inexperienced Bards. Whatever the reason may be, though, my Inspire Courage will be better than the Warchanter's Inspire Courage if they neglect to sing it.

I do agree with the "stupid people do stupid things." However, I try to give the benefit of a doubt here. Maybe there's some intricacies to having two Bards in 1 party that other PrEs haven't caught onto yet, and I'm hoping this can help us grow stronger as a class as a whole.

[TheDearLeader]

/ nor signed ...

Because the heroism song isnt adding more hp / low duration.
The Inspire reclesness, buggs any undead casters healing, so all update 8 songs for WC is bugged !!!
Besides that their sonic spells is soo useless & well any castr got way higher dv for anyrhing exept fascinate.
So why even bother for speels, just give em bufs song / you basicly made em wimpy version off any caster / healer char class.

That soo suxxx, could you plz make their sonic spells worth any, or add some wothwhile songs - for actually soing smg exept weapons ( if WC ).

I like bards, but like monks and some tother classes, i doubr DEV play em / or really try use em for any worth while solo rhings.

Well this is only one off many issues with DDO, i like it alot.
But soo much stuff need some DEV love / or just forget it & make DDO2. Woth the suff needed.
Make ddo worthwhile waiting for DDO2.
And do take your time, i dont care if it takes years after date set. Dont rudh DDO2 - for any course - not even WB.
Honestly rhis game rocks mostly cause off the combat system & the super wuests.
P.S the raids sooo suxxx, honestly only 3 raids are a challenge, rest are just 2 man raids modded with 10 more for droprate. Why the ... that . ( insert foul language ).

Did you respond to the wrong thread? I'm not quite sure what relevance your post has here. I think from the first part of your post, you are mixing up Song of Heroism and Inspire Heroics, which are two completely different things.

I did not know that Inspire Recklessness bugged a Pale Master's self-healing. I am not a Warchanter, nor do I play a Pale Master, nor had I heard that complaint from any side. So, thank you for alerting me to this knowledge. Still not very relevant to Bards working together, but I appreciate you being informative.

The rest of what you say seems to simply be a troll/dump on the Bard class as a whole, so I will not be responding to it, apologies.

[Valindria]

Bad players are bad no matter the PRE.

Good general advice.

The other thing I hate is I am 18 WC II and a 12/x WC II sings IC. I guess they could assume since I am pure I must not be a WC, but again the rule of thumb should be if you have more than one bard make sure you communicate song duties.

I ran a group the other day who kept Inspire Greatness on all the time. I did too as it's part of my song rotation but it was funny because the song would have >3 min left and he would sing to over write it.


I really really hope the song issues get fixed (not stacking sp/health and not working on WF).

[Dragaer]

I think it is the bards that you are running into. My inspire courage is much longer than 4 minutes (I have a 16/2/2 split bard). And don't forget about the Stormsinger Cloak for song regen as well. Although I almost never run out of songs between shrines.

I play one of the worst bards that I know and I didn't fall into your bad warchanter experience. I think you've hit it on the head with the influx of inexperience and lack of communication, it will get better.

Keep your head up and remember...."Its all about the Bard!"

[TheDearLeader]

Bad players are bad no matter the PRE.

Good general advice.

The other thing I hate is I am 18 WC II and a 12/x WC II sings IC. I guess they could assume since I am pure I must not be a WC, but again the rule of thumb should be if you have more than one bard make sure you communicate song duties.

I ran a group the other day who kept Inspire Greatness on all the time. I did too as it's part of my song rotation but it was funny because the song would have >3 min left and he would sing to over write it.


I really really hope the song issues get fixed (not stacking sp/health and not working on WF).

I hope the issues get fixed, as well. And certainly, and 18 WC II would have priorities on the Inspire Courages, provided they're good at keeping them current.

I think it is the bards that you are running into. My inspire courage is much longer than 4 minutes (I have a 16/2/2 split bard). And don't forget about the Stormsinger Cloak for song regen as well. Although I almost never run out of songs between shrines.

I play one of the worst bards that I know and I didn't fall into your bad warchanter experience. I think you've hit it on the head with the influx of inexperience and lack of communication, it will get better.

Keep your head up and remember...."Its all about the Bard!"

Stormsinger Cloak is currently bugged; it simply does not work. I've bug reported it, and have been responded to by the bug team to let me know that its a known issue. I've heard some workaround where possibly equipping the Elyd Edge once per quest/rest will fix this, but I've not sat down long enough to test it. Regardless, its not working right at the moment.

And yes, agreed again. Bad players will be bad, and there's a lot of inexperience here. But if my OP can educate even 1 Bard on 1 new point of information, I consider it a success.

[Dozen_Black_Roses]

Hmm, I have had the occasional difficulties running with other bards, but usually will settle or pre-empt any issues by handling it in tells as to who is doing what songs and who is casting what buffs. I do sometimes question if the inspire courage song from a warchanter is better when they are a split class, as it does run shorter and I am not always confident they put the full points into attack and damage. For all the bards I have had, I cant recall at what level of bard you get the full attack and damage 3 enhancements locked off the top of my head. I just recall being level 15 for inspire heroics.

Didnt know about the virtuoso healing song overriding and dismising the mana regen song, but then there are so few virtuosos out there, it really has not been an issue ever. I actally had that song sung in a group for the first time a week or two ago.

Playing on Sarlona, I'm going to guess alot of problems you have are due to cultural/communication issues, and/or inexperience.

[dunklezhan]

The HP regen song overrides the spell regen song? that's so... weak.

Sigh.

Virtuoso II makes Dunklezhan... sad. Again.

[TheDearLeader]

Playing on Sarlona, I'm going to guess alot of problems you have are due to cultural/communication issues, and/or inexperience.

I sincerely hope that's the issue, as well. I usually will handle this sort of thing in /tells, or just talk over mic if possible. But considering how huge of a non-English speaking population we have, sometimes my best way to "talk" to them is to show by example, such as tossing 38 minute buffs on the Warchanter before they have a chance to toss their shorter ones on everyone else.

The HP regen song overrides the spell regen song? that's so... weak.

Sigh.

Virtuoso II makes Dunklezhan... sad. Again.

Looks like I've taught at least two people about Sustaining Song overriding Spellsong Vigor. So.. yay! ^^ Mission accomplished.

Actually, they both override each other. Sustaining Song overrides Spellsong Vigor, Spellsong Vigor overrides Sustaining Song. Problem is, Sustaining Song is AoE, so the Virt can knock out four of my songs in one fell swoop.

[Irinis]

The HP regen song overrides the spell regen song? that's so... weak.

Sigh.

Virtuoso II makes Dunklezhan... sad. Again.

Yeah. It's really awesome when you find that out in an epic chrono after singing vigor for yourself and all the healers and the non-wf casters... then you tell the virt not to sing it again because it overwrites sp regen, and he does... and again... *headdesk*

hp regen is the weaker ability and like Inspire Courage, the stronger one should overwrite the weaker one.

Dear devs, please UNBUG BARDS! Thank you.

[taurean430]

My bard is a lvl 20 pure warchanter. I keep my songs going continuously throughout any quest I get into.

I'm not sure how to respond to what you are saying except to point out that it's spellsinger splash specific. If you put yourself in a position to have your songs overridden, someone will. Mostly because of inattentive or bad players.

What you start to touch on in your post is the real reason many groups will not pick up two bards of different PRE's. The lack of teamwork between the two limits the benefits of having both there. Your logic is very sound in your post. Yet the problem lies only partially in bugged PRE's (are they ever going to fix this).

From what I have observed while playing my bard:

Whenever a raid lead decides to pick up bards of both PRE's, dueling banjo's occur. I've seen spellsingers run their songs out trying to apply an inspire courage that will not replace mine. A friendly tell stating I'll stick to the IC results in argumentative returns. I leave it alone and let them run their songs out if they want to. Who wants to argue with someone throughout a raid?

Nonetheless, I'm of the opinion that the bard PRE's need work. A warchanter's IC should be significantly more than what a splashed spellsinger can give, not marginally. The PRE requires sacrifice. The spellsinger PRE does as well, but a warchanter cannot obtain spellsinger songs whereas every spellsinger I've run into so far has tried to match or trumph my dps boosting songs. I've considered rolling up a spellsinger or TR'ing my warchanter into one. I'm not sure if that's the best decision.

[TheDearLeader]

I'm not sure how to respond to what you are saying except to point out that it's spellsinger splash specific. If you put yourself in a position to have your songs overridden, someone will. Mostly because of inattentive or bad players.

My toon is not a Spellsinger Splash, he's a TR that has yet to re-cap. The plan is full 20 Spellsinger. And yes, agreed, inattentive and bad players are at least a partial issue here.

[Jaid314]

I would argue that the virtuoso could do just fine singing their song at the start, and then letting your spellsinger overwrite it with SP regen for all the casters in the group without issues. but again, this is basically a communication issue.

that said, i can't for the life of me think of a reason for a virtuoso's song to overwrite a spellsinger's song, or vice versa.

[TheDearLeader]

I would argue that the virtuoso could do just fine singing their song at the start, and then letting your spellsinger overwrite it with SP regen for all the casters in the group without issues. but again, this is basically a communication issue.

that said, i can't for the life of me think of a reason for a virtuoso's song to overwrite a spellsinger's song, or vice versa.

I have no idea why they overwrite one another, but they do.

As for your idea.. I suppose, but then only certain people in the party would benefit from the Sustaining Song. And with that in mind, the Virtuoso may opt to not sing it altogether. Also, as stated, if there's a semi-healy type in the party, they're probably already over healing all but WF. And WF don't benefit from Sustaining Song.

[timetorun177]

/ not signed ...

Because the heroism song isnt adding more hp / low duration.
The Inspire reclesness, buggs any undead casters healing, so all update 8 songs for WC is bugged !!!
Besides that their sonic spells is soo useless & well any caster got way higher dc for anyhing exept fascinate.
So why even bother for spells, just give em bufs song / you basicly made em a wimpy version off any caster / healer char class.

That soo suxxx, could you plz make their sonic spells worth any, or add some worthwhile songs - for actually doing dmg exept weapons ( if WC ).

Our guild bard runs a 39 Enchantment DC with no Yugo Pots or Ship Buffs. Thats WAY lower than casters? She has no issues solo healing Epics and Raids along with being our main CCer. Perhaps you should run with a good bard.

[Jaid314]

I have no idea why they overwrite one another, but they do.

As for your idea.. I suppose, but then only certain people in the party would benefit from the Sustaining Song. And with that in mind, the Virtuoso may opt to not sing it altogether. Also, as stated, if there's a semi-healy type in the party, they're probably already over healing all but WF. And WF don't benefit from Sustaining Song.

It's a bard song. It's not like the average virtuoso is gonna run out any time soon if they spend one on buffing. frankly, the one who really has to worry about running out is spellsinger... 1 for inspire courage, 1 for inspire greatness, 1 for spellsong trance, 1 for song of heightening, and 1 vigor for each caster. that adds up pretty quick, especially since some of those have shorter duration.

[Snormal]

Who parties with more than 1 bard often enough to complain about the interactions between different bard prestiges? Both sound like a complaint of nubness rather than against the actual prestiges themselves.